GST Rule

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Oct 17, 2000
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I have a number of problems with the GST rule, particularly with the maximum requirement of eleven. The rule means players participating in the game have, in my view an unrealistic restriction on their list building, forcing them to delist required players. The other concern is the upcoming draft. For example do I draft Jacob Weitering or Josh Schache with the knowledge that they are almost certainly going to be classed as a goalkicker or stopper in 2017? This will do little more than force me to delist other required players because I've exceeded the eleven player quota.

I understand completely that there needs to be a rule to force players to name more balanced sides each week. But the GST rule as it currently stands isn't it. There are, in my view, better ways of doing this.

If we're set on the keeping the GST concept, then:
1) scrap the maximum. Allow players to have as many on their list as they like. Set a minimum (see below)
2) Be more realistic with the classifications. Key position players must be allowed to be classified as goalkickers or stoppers. Ruckmen who are obviously ruckmen on AFL lists, such as Shaun McKernan and Jonathan Giles should be classified as tappers. This increases the pool and allows all squads to reach the minimum easily.

My suggestions:

1. Scrap the maximum rule.

2. Each named team per week, must have a minimum of six GST players, (a third of the team of 18) with a minimum of two GKs, two STs and one TAP named, with the minimum sixth coming from any of the classifications. Those six GST players should be named at FB, CHB, CHF, FF, RCK and one other position, of the player's choice. You could of course name more. When naming a side each coach should put a 'G', an 'S' or a 'T' next to the relevant player's name to enable a quick count.

For example the Adelaide Lions Round 1 2016 team might be named in the following format:

B: Harris Andrews (S), Jake Lever (S), Zak Jones
HB: Liam Dawson, Jake Carlisle (S), Sharrod Wellingham
C: Rhys Palmer, Ryan Bastinac, Harry Cunningham
HF: Michael Hibberd, Joe Daniher (G), Andrew Walker
F: Aaron Black (G), Ryan Schoenmakers (G), Angus Monfries,
R: Ivan Maric (T), Jimmy Toumpas, Angus Brayshaw
I: Matthew Lobbe, Nick Robertson, Lynden Dunn (S), Jarryd Blair

So under this format, a quick count can be made. I have my minimum one TAP, two Goalkickers and two stoppers, but also have my minimum sixth (say Harris Andrews) in the back pocket. This week I've decided to name an extra Goalkicker Aaron Black in the forward pocket. It's quick and its easy to check. And also fulfills the whole point of introducing the rule in the first place, which was to maintain team balance on a week to week basis.

The obvious conclusion from all of this is that the minimum GST players you would need on a list would be six. That's 108 players in total from an overall total of 720 players (15%). I don't think any team would have too much difficulty getting a minimum of six GST players on their list. There would be no need to impose an arbitrary, unnecessary and restricting maximum rule.

If a squad did only have a minimum of six, then that carries the inherent danger of one or more of them being injured, in which case they would still have to be named, with resultant penalties and also carrying a 0 into the game. For example from my side, Ivan Maric might be injured, so I might have one or two extra depth tappers to cover his loss and to be named each week.

3. Make it a rule that a GST player named but that doesn't end up playing that week can only be replaced by another GST player on the bench. So in my example above, I name Carlisle, but he doesn't play and Lynden Dunn who is a stopper who I've named on my bench for that week, comes in and plays.

Coaches can risk having only six GST players on their squad, but it's a significant risk for reasons already explained.

This system with no maximum does not inhibit coaches from building a list, or drafting the players they want to draft, without having to worry about delisting required players 12 months down their track because their drafted players are suddenly GST players and the total number won't fit under a maximum.

Going on the list of GST players (which looks like hasn't been updated since last Monday), the clubs that would need GST players are: (minimum of two stoppers, two goalkickers, and one tapper)

Geelong: 1 stopper
Northern Reds: 1 goalkicker
Rottnest 1 stopper
West Coast: 2 stoppers
 
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I understand your frustration Roylion but Russian did state in the opening post of the Applications thread that anyone for any player could give reason as to why they should/shouldn't be a GST player.

Being a new thing it did confuse all of us but it was explained and if you were automatically given too many GST players you could have argued why some (Palmer) shouldn't be classified as one.

In saying that, I think it's harsh to penalise you or anyone this off season for GST players when it confused the majority of us.
 
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I understand your frustration Roylion but Russian did state in the opening post of the Applications thread that anyone for any player could give reason as to why they should/shouldn't be a GST player.

As far as I can see, the option to argue why a player "shouldn't" be a GST player wasn't given. In the opening post it just says...

"3) Classification of a player who doesn't automatically qualify as a GST (goalkicker/stopper/tapper) player. These players must have shown they can do one of those things consistently at AFL level. You can do this for both players on your own list and on other teams' lists."

Being a new thing it did confuse all of us but it was explained and if you were automatically given too many GST players you could have argued why some (Palmer) shouldn't be classified as one.

I don't know that there was that option. If there was...it wasn't made clear in the first post that you could argue that an automatically qualified GST player shouldn't be classed as one. If it was subsequently mentioned or implied in another post that you could...then I missed it.

Post 30 from Russian in the "Off season applications" thread stated:

"It's about avoiding situations like West Coast this year who only had 4 non-midfielder/flankers on their list and therefore couldn't name anything that vaguely resembled a balanced team all year. It won't mean there will never be an occasion where a team is slightly unbalanced.

i.e. there is nothing to gain by not applying for GST status."


Clearly there is soemthing to gain by not applying. By not applying for GST status, and possibly exceeding the limit, you wouldn't be subsequently forced to delist required players.

In saying that, I think it's harsh to penalise you or anyone this off season for GST players when it confused the majority of us.

I still don't understand the need for a maximum. Reduce the overall minimum, force a minimum amount of GST players to be named each week and that solves the unbalanced team "problem". Also allows coaches to build a list without unnecessary, unrealistic restrictions. It could be easily be adjusted now, before teams are forced to delist or trade required players.
 
I had a relatively balanced list before the rule was invented. Now I'm being penalised for it.

Doesn't help that 2 of the teams that need these players are manager less
 
For example the Adelaide Lions Round 1 2016 team might be named in the following format:

B: Harris Andrews (S), Jake Lever (S), Zak Jones
HB: Liam Dawson, Jake Carlisle (S), Sharrod Wellingham
C: Rhys Palmer, Ryan Bastinac, Harry Cunningham
HF: Michael Hibberd, Joe Daniher (G), Andrew Walker
F: Aaron Black (G), Ryan Schoenmakers (G), Angus Monfries,
R: Ivan Maric (T), Jimmy Toumpas, Angus Brayshaw
I: Matthew Lobbe, Nick Robertson, Lynden Dunn (S), Jarryd Blair
You wouldn't seriously be naming Hibberd in the forward line though would you?
The GST is trying to stop this kind of selection from happening by ensuring that everyone has made an effort to have enough goalkickers to not name permanent mids and defenders in the forward line.

I do agree with you though. I think the GST is great in principle, but I don't think the current format is really going to change anything, in fact we might see more dodgy selections than before, as the GST didn't specify kpp numbers and I can see people trying to name non-kpp players at CHF agruing they're GST goalkickers, or naming pure mids or defendrs (like you did) at half forward arguing that they don't have any more goalkickers in their squad (probably due to GST maximum of 11) and leave legitimate forwards like Blair in their reserves.

I think it needs to be reviewed, and I personally think it should be relaxed this year, but Russian did indicate while trading was still open that it wouldn't be changed this year. We had plenty of notice that this would be the case.
I just hope that it doesn't lead to more dodgy positioning than it did before, and people still make every effort to name a legitimate 18 on match days.
 
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You wouldn't seriously be naming Hibberd in the forward line though would you?
The GST is trying to stop this kind of selection from happening by ensuring that everyone has made an effort to have enough goalkickers to not name permanent mids and defenders in the forward line.

More likely on the half back flank, but why not if I wanted to? Plenty of midfielders play on the half forward flank or half back flank. Pearce Hanley and Daniel Rich just to name a couple. Jason Akermanis was often named (and played) in the forward pocket or back pocket when he was playing. Kicked the sealer in 2002 grand final from a forward pocket. I didn't name Hibberd at CHF.

In any case, there's still no requirement to name any player in any position, other than what Russian deems as a dodgy selection. It's just about having enough GST players on your overall squad. As it stands - theoretically - I could have 11 GST fringe players on my list of 40 and still name none of them in my starting 18 in any given week.

I do agree with you though. I think the GST is great in principle, but I don't think the current format is really going to change anything, in fact we might see more dodgy selections than before, as the GST didn't specify kpp numbers and I can see people trying to name non-kpp players at CHF agruing they're GST goalkickers, or naming pure mids or defendrs (like you did) at half forward arguing that they don't have any more goalkickers in their squad (probably due to GST maximum of 11) and leave legitimate forwards like Blair in their reserves.

Yep. Theoretically under the rules why can't I name Rhys Palmer at FF, given that he's a designated goal-kicker?

I think it needs to be reviewed, and I personally think it should be relaxed this year, but Russian did indicate while trading was still open that it wouldn't be changed this year. We had plenty of notice that this would be the case.

I've been asking questions since the start, but they've either been vaguely answered or not answered at all. And it appears that some have been overlooked or forgotten due to extended absences from the game.

I just hope that it doesn't lead to more dodgy positioning than it did before, and people still make every effort to name a legitimate 18 on match days.

People will name players that they think will score the most, unless there are specific restrictions prohibiting them from doing so. In any case, it appears that I'll have two less choices to name a balanced squad, given that I'm being forced to trade them or they will be forcibly delisted. I still don't know if they are delisted, whether their salary is still counted in my overall cap.
 
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I agree with the rule in principle and what we are trying to achieve but like Roylion do not understand the maximum rule.

We coaches generally adhere to the basics of naming a team in realistic positions however, it can get difficult to police though when injuries/suspensions/resting by Fremantle takes its toll. As highlighted in this years Grand Final where I had to play Shane Edwards at FF, because Cloke was injured, my back up Mike Pyke had to play ruck because Sandilands got injured (btw Edwards does play at lot of time up forward and consistently named CHF for Richmond). So I considered Edwards at FF was more plausible than others.

I think we need to be diligent on the obvious one's where say Joel Selwood is named as FF when there is a John Butcher on the bench.

Perhaps where a coach is exhausted of all possible defenders, forwards and application need to be made to consider player x as a forward or defender ??
 
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Maybe we go to the way DreamTeam is run and have all players given a position? We could go one further and have key forwards/defenders and Ruckman classified too so there is no grey area about who we name where.

I'd be happy with this, but if that system is too complicated why not in each named team per week, have a minimum of six GST players, (a third of the team of 18) with a minimum of two GKs, two STs and one TAP named, with the minimum sixth coming from any of the three classifications? Those six GST players should be named at FB, CHB, CHF, FF, RCK and one other position, of the player's choice. You could of course name more. When naming a side each coach should put a 'G', an 'S' or a 'T' next to the relevant player's name to enable a quick count.

It's simple, it's easy to check if the format of inserting as G, S, or T beside each relevant player's name and as far as I can see, largely solves the problem of unbalanced teams.
 
More likely on the half back flank, but why not if I wanted to? Plenty of midfielders play on the half forward flank or half back flank. Pearce Hanley and Daniel Rich just to name a couple. Jason Akermanis was often named (and played) in the forward pocket or back pocket when he was playing. Kicked the sealer in 2002 grand final from a forward pocket. I didn't name Hibberd at CHF.

In any case, there's still no requirement to name any player in any position, other than what Russian deems as a dodgy selection. It's just about having enough GST players on your overall squad. As it stands - theoretically - I could have 11 GST fringe players on my list of 40 and still name none of them in my starting 18 in any given week.
Why not? This answer actually surprised me. Yes, everybody here knows that Hanley and Rich regularly play on a flank, so there is no problem with a coach playing those players there.
But everybody here also knows that Hibberd doesn't play on a forward flank. Selections like this are the reason restrictions needed to be made, and the GST rule has been introduced.

Yep. Theoretically under the rules why can't I name Rhys Palmer at FF, given that he's a designated goal-kicker?
That's one of the clear problems with the GST. I don't think the GST in it's current form changes anything at all. It doesn't address the kpp issue. Yechnically a team could have a mixture of 9 goalkickers and stopper and not have a single kpp on his list.
This is why match day point penalties for players named out of position are a better option. Eg. Hibberd might have a 25-50% penalty for being named as a kpd or half forward flanker or 75% penalty for being named as a kpf

I've been asking questions since the start, but they've either been vaguely answered or not answered at all. And it appears that some have been overlooked or forgotten due to extended absences from the game.
I generally find the same thing. But Russian is the only one doing all ot he updating and there is a hell of a lot to do as admin for this game.
I seriously think Russian should appoint 2 or 3 coaches as moderators so they can keep the bidding, trading, team lists etc up to date, so Russian has more time to respond to questions and assess how to best deal with issues that arise.

People will name players that they think will score the most, unless there are specific restrictions prohibiting them from doing so. In any case, it appears that I'll have two less choices to name a balanced squad, given that I'm being forced to trade them or they will be forcibly delisted. I still don't know if they are delisted, whether their salary is still counted in my overall cap.
It looks like you'll have to lose the players as per the rules, which I can't argue with given the rules have been there since the start of trading, but personally I'd hate to see you penalised, and would be very happy for the GST rules o be relaxed for this season so you can keep the players. I don't think someone who's made the effort to build a balanced squad before the GST was introduced penalised.
 
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Why not? This answer actually surprised me. Yes, everybody here knows that Hanley and Rich regularly play on a flank, so there is no problem with a coach playing those players there. But everybody here also knows that Hibberd doesn't play on a forward flank. Selections like this are the reason restrictions needed to be made, and the GST rule has been introduced.

But how far do you go? Hibberd is a running rebounding defender / midfielder. Playing Hibberd on a half forward flank, as essentially a running player, is not such a stretch as playing as him a KP position.

That's one of the clear problems with the GST. I don't think the GST in it's current form changes anything at all. It doesn't address the kpp issue. Yechnically a team could have a mixture of 9 goalkickers and stopper and not have a single kpp on his list.

So make your "goalkickers", clear KP Forwards, your "stoppers" as clear KP backs and your "tappers" as those who are clear rucks for their respective teams, or who would fill those positons if named. For example Jackson Paine is unlikely to get a game for the Lions this year, but when he named he plays as a KP forward. So he's a goalkicker for the purposes of the game.

This is why match day point penalties for players named out of position are a better option. Eg. Hibberd might have a 25-50% penalty for being named as a kpd or half forward flanker or 75% penalty for being named as a kpf

Still too vague in my view and its solely a subjective judgement made by the admin. If you made it a hard and fast rule that only GST players could play at FF, CHF (goalkickers), CHB, FB (stoppers) and RCK (tappers) you's solve the vast majority of most selection problems. Name six at a minimum for further team balance. If a minimum of six was deemed too unbalanced, make it seven. A third of your team as GST player (key forwards, key backs and rucks) and compulsorily named as FF, CHF, FB, CHB, Rck, plus one extra in your starting 18 seems reasonable to me.

I generally find the same thing. But Russian is the only one doing all ot he updating and there is a hell of a lot to do as admin for this game.

I understand that completely.

It looks like you'll have to lose the players as per the rules, which I can't argue with given the rules have been there since the start of trading, but personally I'd hate to see you penalised, and would be very happy for the GST rules o be relaxed for this season so you can keep the players. I don't think someone who's made the effort to build a balanced squad before the GST was introduced penalised.

If the rules can be relaxed, then the rule can be altered, even at this late stage.

And apparently I've got 15 GST players now. It was 13 this morning. 14 on the official list, although I've traded Sam Reid.
 
perhaps a better rule would be to restrict the number of non-GST players in the 18 ? just throwing it out there
 
But how far do you go? Hibberd is a running rebounding defender / midfielder. Playing Hibberd on a half forward flank, as essentially a running player, is not such a stretch as playing as him a KP position.
If naming a player in a certain position is a stretch at all then it probably shouldn't happen without penalty.


So make your "goalkickers", clear KP Forwards, your "stoppers" as clear KP backs and your "tappers" as those who are clear rucks for their respective teams, or who would fill those positons if named. For example Jackson Paine is unlikely to get a game for the Lions this year, but when he named he plays as a KP forward. So he's a goalkicker for the purposes of the game.
I agree with most of this, but flanks and pockets can be abused just as much as kpp, so that also needs to be considered.
I'm pretty sure the reason Russian didn't include players like Paine is because they're not getting enough games to solve the problem. If a team had 5 rucks but none of them ever get a game that team will still need to name a dodgy selection there. Having a minimum of 2 that qualify at least gives you an option unless they both get injured.


Still too vague in my view and its solely a subjective judgement made by the admin. If you made it a hard and fast rule that only GST players could play at FF, CHF (goalkickers), CHB, FB (stoppers) and RCK (tappers) you's solve the vast majority of most selection problems. Name six at a minimum for further team balance. If a minimum of six was deemed too unbalanced, make it seven. A third of your team as GST player (key forwards, key backs and rucks) and compulsorily named as FF, CHF, FB, CHB, Rck, plus one extra in your starting 18 seems reasonable to me.
No. Flanks and pockets are abused just as much as talls.A small forward or defender who scores in the 60s shouldn't be left out while someone who never plays there takes their position on a flank.
If you legitimately have absolutely no-one who generally plays in the forward line available, then you'd look at naming the next more logical selection there, which might be someone like Hibberd.


If the rules can be relaxed, then the rule can be altered, even at this late stage.

And apparently I've got 15 GST players now. It was 13 this morning. 14 on the official list, although I've traded Sam Reid.
I don't think you should be penalised for doing the right thing in the past so I think it should be relaxed to reflect this.
But to change it significantly or even remove it now would be just as unfair on those who have based their bidding and trading on the GST rues and ensured they have met the restrictions. If you make significant changes now, they are all being disadvantaged for following the rules over the past month or so
 
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If naming a player in a certain position is a stretch at all then it probably shouldn't happen without penalty.

Then we might as well classify every player (aka Dreamteam and Supercoach) and remove all doubt. I wouldn't be opposed to this by the way, but understand that it is extra work.

I agree with most of this, but flanks and pockets can be abused just as much as kpp, so that also needs to be considered.

Having played a few games of these types (I'm in two others apart from this one and that's not counting Dreamteam and Supercoach) there's three main types of AFL players in my view. Tall key position players, running players and rucks. Running players tend to be your midfielders and flanks. Maybe the odd back pocket. The others are self explanatory.

I'm pretty sure the reason Russian didn't include players like Paine is because they're not getting enough games to solve the problem. If a team had 5 rucks but none of them ever get a game that team will still need to name a dodgy selection there. Having a minimum of 2 that qualify at least gives you an option unless they both get injured.

Yes, true. My point is that there are plenty of players that could qualify as GST players without having to set a maximum. The minimum could be lowered as well.

No. Flanks and pockets are abused just as much as talls.A small forward or defender who scores in the 60s shouldn't be left out while someone who never plays there takes their position on a flank.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Given the lack of specific classifications for every single player, there should be some reasonable flexibility.

Midfielder type players should realistically be named in the C, on the wings, HBF, HFFs, RKR and RO and maybe in the FP or BPs.
Tall defenders could realistically be named at CHB, FB and BPs
Tall forwards could realistically be named as FF, CHF, both FPs and maybe in the RCK
Rucks could realistically be named in the RCK, at RKR, FPs, BPs and maybe in the key positions.

I don't think you should be penalised for doing the right thing in the past so I think it should be relaxed to reflect this.
But to change it significantly or even remove it now would be just as unfair on those who have based their bidding and trading on the GST rues and ensured they have met the restrictions. If you make significant changes now, they are all being disadvantaged for following the rules over the past month or so

How should it be relaxed?

And what should I do in the upcoming draft? Do I draft Weitering or Schache with the almost certain knowledge that they will be either Goalkickers or stoppers in 2017, meaning I will have to delist another required player next year (even if I'm under the list size and the salary cap) because Ive exceeded the maximum quota of eleven? Or do I not draft them because of that reason and then find the quota has been lifted next year and I could have drafted them?
 
I'm not reading any of this. IMHO the game wasn't broke enough for this reaction

This.

Just use common sense when naming a team as any AFL team does. Dont go naming DalSanto at FF or Jack Neade at FB. If you are struggling to fill a spot then name someone who might under the same circumstances (if a teams Key Forwards were inj in an afl team ) who 'might' have to play in that position. As Brad Shepherd did at West Coast when they lost their key backs. If you dont then you'll receive a penalty.
 
This.

Just use common sense when naming a team as any AFL team does. Dont go naming DalSanto at FF or Jack Neade at FB. If you are struggling to fill a spot then name someone who might under the same circumstances (if a teams Key Forwards were inj in an afl team ) who 'might' have to play in that position. As Brad Shepherd did at West Coast when they lost their key backs. If you dont then you'll receive a penalty.

Everyone does this anyway. But Roylion is being penalised for having too many?
 

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