Judd: Essendon players could have said 'no'

[mxett]

So if the AFL states that the EFC used prohibited substances on their players, but couldn't identify which players were involved, then would you conclude that the EFC cheated ??? And what further penalties (if any) would you accept as appropriate if such a conclusion was made ???

No, depends on the context. The players signed consents clearly indicating they did not want to participate in a wada banned doping program. Furthermore the leaders of the club repeatedly stated they wanted a safe and compliant program. If the players were given banned it was against the clubs wishes, either by deception or neglect. I personally wouldn't call that cheating

 

[jenny61_99]

More like people have been saying whatever they like about Tanya, one joke about Rebecca and you feel the need to pull me up. Shows the complete closed mindedness of some people.

No, more like you guys have been bagging anyone for saying anything about Tanya, but feel it's quite fine to have a go at Chris Judds wife. Hypocrisy much?

 

[pjhad1]

No, depends on the context. The players signed consents clearly indicating they did not want to participate in a wada banned doping program. Furthermore the leaders of the club repeatedly stated they wanted a safe and compliant program. If the players were given banned it was against the clubs wishes, either by deception or neglect. I personally wouldn't call that cheating

Yes, that's exactly the line the EFC is trying to sell.

"We wanted a safe and compliant program. See, look over there, I signed a consent form. See!"

Works for both the players and the club. Problem is, the club should've known better than to get into such a program in the first place. Likewise, the older players would have known they were doing what they shouldn't have been.

 

[blackshadow]

The AFLs own thorough investigation concluded they couldn't determine what substances were used overall and for individuals. This was after reviewing thousands of documents, files, emails and texts.

Not sure what you want us to say. Personally I'm not prepared to say the club cheated without conclusive evidence.

The AFL's own investigation means diddly squat re infractions, it's the ASADA investigation that matters...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[mxett]

Yes, that's exactly the line the EFC is trying to sell.

"We wanted a safe and compliant program. See, look over there, I signed a consent form. See!"

Works for both the players and the club. Problem is, the club should've known better than to get into such a program in the first place. Likewise, the older players would have known they were doing what they shouldn't have been.

How should they have known this exactly?

 

[pjhad1]

How should they have known this exactly?

Judd would've known

 

[coryne]

How should they have known this exactly?

Hird and Evans both knew that AOD was a drug still undergoing pre-clinical trials. That alone should have put a stop to its use ...............

How about Hird actually enforcing the "controls" that he, supposedly, put on the program instead of encouraging it? Putting the control of the use of MEDICATIONS (not supplements) into the hands of trained medical professionals instead of "scientists" which do not even possess a Doctorate (the minimum requirement to be considered a Scientist IMO).


I would list more but we have gone over each point a thousand times .....................


Oh and Dank = the EFC, the whole "rogue" line is bullshit and you know it (like how you know that most of your arguments regarding AOD are crap but still peddle them anyway) ...........

 

[mediumsizered]

More like people have been saying whatever they like about Tanya, one joke about Rebecca and you feel the need to pull me up. Shows the complete closed mindedness of some people.

"They started it." Isn't this the attitude that led to this doping debacle? "Hawthorn & Collingwood are doing it, so we are going to do it as well."

 

[Duckworth]

No, more like you guys have been bagging anyone for saying anything about Tanya, but feel it's quite fine to have a go at Chris Judds wife. Hypocrisy much?

YOU are the biggest hypocrit. how many times did you rush to the defense of Tania... 1 post about Rebecca and you come running.

And you've lumped all Essendon supporters together - I'm pretty sure I didn't post in relation to all the 'long face' comments about Tania. How about getting your facts right.

 

[jenny61_99]

YOU are the biggest hypocrit. how many times did you rush to the defense of Tania... 1 post about Rebecca and you come running.

And you've lumped all Essendon supporters together - I'm pretty sure I didn't post in relation to all the 'long face' comments about Tania. How about getting your facts right.

Way to miss a point.

 

[Gavstar]

The AFLs own thorough investigation concluded they couldn't determine what substances were used overall and for individuals. This was after reviewing thousands of documents, files, emails and texts.

Not sure what you want us to say. Personally I'm not prepared to say the club cheated without conclusive evidence.

Perhaps an admission that players don't know what they have taken is contrary to the sections of AFL-anti doping code?

 

[mxett]

Perhaps an admission that players don't know what they have taken is contrary to the sections of AFL-anti doping code?

Which is an offense that wouldn't be unique to Essendon. I guarantee there have been many afl players who just trusted their staff and wouldn't know exactly what they had been given

 

[LoungeLizard]

“I don’t know if they all knew what the others were doing but certainly if you are in your late 20s, I find it hard to believe you wouldn’t have thought something was up, with that feeling you get in your stomach.”
Mxett, what do you think about this comment from Judd?

 

[mxett]

“I don’t know if they all knew what the others were doing but certainly if you are in your late 20s, I find it hard to believe you wouldn’t have thought something was up, with that feeling you get in your stomach.”
Mxett, what do you think about this comment from Judd?

fair call

Essendons senior players asked for written documentation outlining the program and assuring them the substances were all approved by WADA/ASADA

 

[Clark G]

Maybe he went to the same powerpoint presentation. He may have checked and come to the same conclusion as Dank, although it doesn't appear that anyone ever raised their questions with ASADA. They would have a receipt of their request and this would have been done and dusted months ago. There were other substances injected and it doesn't appear that Dr Reid signed off on these, despite his insistence on doing just that. Either he was bypassed by the sports science department (which he could be forgiven for) or he gave up asking (which he could not be forgiven for). There was something in the paper about a player being treated on the Gold Coast and he was there when this player was injected with something. He apparently was very sceptical about the effectiveness of this treatment, but allowed it to happen. He seemed very sceptical about the whole program, but didn't appear to fight very hard for it to be catalogued properly or for each supplement to be vigourously checked out prior to injection.

With regards to the dropped charges, the AFL don't want these things to go to court because they are very expensive and courts require a higher standard of proof than sporting bodies. (See the John Terry racial abuse case in the EPL for an example of this). If Dr Reid has been negligent, then ASADA will have charges for him and the AMA will probably have something to say as well. Why would the AFL spend money going to court when ASADA and the AMA will do it for free?

Why charge Reid at all then? Might as well as not charged him and let ASADA do the work as you suggest.

 

[yaco55]

Way to miss a point.

Your standard phrase when you are outdebated.

 

[jenny61_99]

Your standard phrase when you are outdebated.

Ah no, it's my standard phrase when someone has completely missed the point.

 

[JCHolmes]

The whole thing just stinks and i really feel for Essendon supporters.

 

[D-N-R]

Why charge Reid at all then? Might as well as not charged him and let ASADA do the work as you suggest.

Because he was part of the supplements program. Hird said he would go to court, Little probably threatened it too. Reid was the only one who was willing to go through with the threat as he had a lot to lose by not going. If he accepted a charge which amounted to not keeping records of what his patients took, the AMA would have stepped in and may have struck him off. Like I said earlier, the level of proof needed in a court of law is much higher than a disrepute charge through the AFL, but they couldn't very well leave the club doctor off the charge sheet. [All this of course is prefaced by 'IMHO'].

 

[KennyHunter9]

Because he was part of the supplements program. Hird said he would go to court, Little probably threatened it too. Reid was the only one who was willing to go through with the threat as he had a lot to lose by not going. If he accepted a charge which amounted to not keeping records of what his patients took, the AMA would have stepped in and may have struck him off. Like I said earlier, the level of proof needed in a court of law is much higher than a disrepute charge through the AFL, but they couldn't very well leave the club doctor off the charge sheet. [All this of course is prefaced by 'IMHO'].

Hird had a lot to lose from going to court too.

He would have had to tell us the "truth" he promised so long ago and was apparently desperate to share.

Problem for Jimmy was that he'd have to answer questions truthfully, or perjure himself. What a bind!

So better to let Hanke, Spike, Lloyd, Tania, Tim Watson, Allan and Little do the talking - so Jimmy would not have to answer awkward questions about what he said, what he demanded, what he knew, what he took and what he did.

 

[KennyHunter9]

How should they have known this exactly?

Oh, I don't know Mxett ....

- Maybe Google some of the drugs they signed off on

- Maybe give ASADA a call and ask a few questions

- Maybe seek out Doc Reid and asked his opinion

- Maybe even just listen to that "feeling in their stomach" that Judd refers too

- Or maybe just look down, see a syringe hanging out of your abdomen, placed there by someone who has no medical qualifications and ask yourself "WTF?"

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

The whole thing just stinks and i really feel for Essendon supporters.

Why? Most of them think they've done nothing wrong.

 

[DapperDon]

Why? Most of them think they've done nothing wrong.

What do Essendon supporters have to feel wrong about?

 

[Juddafideslenko]

Let me explain then. Chris Judd likes to cause people physical harm. Clearly gets off on it. Video evidence of it. The Essendon players were just trying to overcome, like everyone else in the competition, the harm that comes from stretching the capabilities of your body to the limits. Allegedly. In terms of the harm principle, which really is the only principle that should be in moralistic play ever, Judd's actions are much, much worse than anything the Essendon players have been accused of.

please tell me you're kidding!...
Essendon were trying to get an unfair advantage on the ground and in recovery by injecting
their players with drugs, not supplements. The drugs on the charge sheet can and most likely
cause adverse health effects if administered over a prolonged period, in which they were.
There has been a connection with the drugs aledgedly administered and cancer among other ailments.

Chris Judd poked a bloke in the eye and grabbed a bloke by the arm.These players didn't miss game time,
and will not suddenly drop dead in 10 years time because of this.
Yes they were stupid and undisciplined acts, but not life-threatening.

Wake up mate, if the WADA code means anything Essendon are r**ted.
I've mentioned on another post that even though i hate your mob with a passion, i wish
this s**t never happened, but it did, and instead of finding scapegoats and passing the buck
those responsible should of saved everyone alot of bother and copped their right whack.
At least there is some dignity in that.
If it was my club i would be ropeable towards everyone involved and
would hate the fact that the bloke in charge was being welcomed back. Not celebrate it!

Nah, but we'll have a crack at some bloke that did something so miniscule compared to us
to make ourselves feel a little better! Give me a f***** break!!

 

[Juddafideslenko]

Let me explain then. Chris Judd likes to cause people physical harm. Clearly gets off on it. Video evidence of it. The Essendon players were just trying to overcome, like everyone else in the competition, the harm that comes from stretching the capabilities of your body to the limits. Allegedly. In terms of the harm principle, which really is the only principle that should be in moralistic play ever, Judd's actions are much, much worse than anything the Essendon players have been accused of.

Clearly gets off on it?
Juddy has had many chances to hurt and injure other players over the years
as he's been smashed by opposition since his second game. He has rarely retaliated
although most fair minded people wouldn't blame him.
He must have rare restraint if he indeed as you say "gets off on it'
Again...PFFT!