Leppa's Gameplan

[Slax]

Leppa is introducing the Richmond game plan or something very similar. They are a few years ahead of us in experience with this game plan and it is failing for them to. Between us we have one win and a percentage of about 70%. Might be time to evaluate whether this is the best route to go down.

It is a flawed plan that won't win finals footy and should not be implemented.

We desperately need a coach who has no ties to the club at all. Every coach we've tried who has had ties to the club has failed, we need real fresh blood in the place to not only shake up the players, but the board as well. We also need better skills coaching too, you can have all the pace in the world but if you can't hit a target more than 25m away its worthless.

 

[Ironmonger]

Whatever the gameplan is, it probably can't be neatly summarised in a line.

We heard quite a bit over the summer about redoing all the running patterns, and about predictable ball movement.

From what we've seen this season it seems no one with the ball instinctively knows where their teammates should be; hence the hospital handballs and the repeatedly misdirected kicks from virtually everyone at some point or other.

So it seems like many players are still trying to learn all the complexities of where they should be and where their teammates should be at any given moment.

Yes, that will get better with time. Personally I think it would get better quicker if we had a few more seasoned players out there.

 

[Haso]

It is a flawed plan that won't win finals footy and should not be implemented.

We desperately need a coach who has no ties to the club at all. Every coach we've tried who has had ties to the club has failed, we need real fresh blood in the place to not only shake up the players, but the board as well. We also need better skills coaching too, you can have all the pace in the world but if you can't hit a target more than 25m away its worthless.

You want to ditch a coach after four games?

No matter which way you slice it, damning a coach after 4 games, with the injuries that we've had and a poor list from previous mistakes screams of petulance and knee-jerk reactions.

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[chopperduck]

<Kneejerk.gif>

 

[Hollow Knight]

Bad recipe?

Good recipe that wasn't followed?

Good recipe made with substandard or substituted ingredients?

Good recipe with good ingredients but not in the oven long enough?

 

[Hollow Knight]

THE RECIPE IS SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

 

[Haso]

THE RECIPE IS SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

G is for Gameplan, that's good enough for me.

 

[Ironmonger]

Bad recipe?

Good recipe that wasn't followed?

Good recipe made with substandard or substituted ingredients?

Good recipe with good ingredients but not in the oven long enough?

Maybe a good recipe, and good ingredients. But the ingredients are for cookies and we're trying to make creme brulee.

Possibly if Leppitsch had his time over he'd have done things differently. Maybe try and tweak the existing gamplan the players were used to, instead of chucking it away altogether.

Then over time bring in the players that could play his preferred style, and fully implement it after a couple of seasons.

Players like Golby, Harwood and Adcock have spent the last few seasons trying to clear the ball long from the defensive 50, and to overlap with handballs when possible. Now it seems they're expected to hold onto it and switch as the first option. Maybe they're just not suited to that style.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Maybe a good recipe, and good ingredients. But the ingredients are for cookies and we're trying to make creme brulee.

Possibly if Leppitsch had his time over he'd have done things differently. Maybe try and tweak the existing gamplan the players were used to, instead of chucking it away altogether.

Yeah, all very possible. My issue is that in the face in a lot of uncertainty and lack of evidence, we have a few posters speaking in black-and-white definitives backed up by little substance.

Like you Tom, I feel it is simply too soon to tell.. no shame in not knowing, acknowledging the complexities and waiting to see a reasonable amount of evidence to emerge.

Can't educate and overturn the habits and mental and physical conditioning of a bunch of (sometimes not very bright) 18-25 year old boys overnight.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I know we've gone off topic a bit here, but hopefully the mods have moved the recent discussion and not deleted it outright.

EDIT: ZoBlitz

 

[Ironmonger]

Like you Tom, I feel it is simply too soon to tell.. no shame in not knowing, acknowledging the complexities and waiting to see a reasonable amount of evidence to emerge.

It's too soon to tell if the gameplan will end up being any good or not. But I think we can conclude that Leppitsch has gotten a few things wrong in his preparation for this season. Like you said earlier, I strongly doubt he thinks 100 point losses are the ideal way to develop this team.

I have to say I just don't agree with a new coach coming in with a preferred gameplan and imposing that on the players without considering their abilities and what they're used to, in any sport. I don't believe that there is one perfect gameplan for every circumstance. So right off the bat I'm a bit prejudiced against what seems to be Leppitsch's approach.

 

[Hollow Knight]

It's too soon to tell if the gameplan will end up being any good or not. But I think we can conclude that Leppitsch has gotten a few things wrong in his preparation for this season. Like you said earlier, I strongly doubt he thinks 100 point losses are the ideal way to develop this team.

I have to say I just don't agree with a new coach coming in with a preferred gameplan and imposing that on the players without considering their abilities and what they're used to, in any sport. I don't believe that there is one perfect gameplan for every circumstance. So right off the bat I'm a bit prejudiced against what seems to be Leppitsch's approach.

Yeah, I think it's hard to judge how fundamentalist he is about his gameplan from the outside and this early on.

Can't blame a guy for having a preferred gameplan to begin with, you need to have a vision. And I think you have to give him some time to experiment and test out how various players respond to it.

I'd like to think that after a bit of experimentation you make adjustments to both player roles and the gameplan accordingly. My personal feeling is that Leppa is a pretty pragmatic soul and will be willing to adjust his own plan (to a degree) where required, as opposed to a Mark Neeld who very much seemed to be a "my way or GTFO" type bloke.

Still think we will be in the ugly experimentation phase for a while. I am sure every senior coaches gameplan looks full of merit on paper, but until it is tried in the head of battle with the soldiers at your disposal, you just don't know. As supporters we really have to swallow the poop sandwich and be patient for a while yet.

 

[Tairy Greene]

Can't blame a guy for having a preferred gameplan to begin with, you need to have a vision. And I think you have to give him some time to experiment and test out how various players respond to it.

Would be a lot easier to tinker with the game plan if players weren't going down with injury or getting suspended every week, be nice to have the best 22 or close to every week.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Would be a lot easier to tinker with the game plan if players weren't going down with injury or getting suspended every week, be nice to have the best 22 or close to every week.

Yep, a few posters just seem unwilling to even consider that element which is just so unfair. Some seem to have such a fundamental commitment to flat-out defeatism that any consideration of context is just seen as making excuses.

Our injury list is a massive handicap at the moment.

 

[Sanchez365]

It was hard to tell on the weekend what the plan looked like, but defensively we constantly let men get free on either edge of the center square. I was surprised how many times there was a port player unmarked 60m from goal who could mark, turn and deliver into the forward 50.

That said it was a pretty rubbish game to see any semblance of a structure out there.

 

[chopperduck]

I dont think he would do anything differently. There is no certainty that we cant play this style of footy yet, and to think that any game plan or style woukd be so ridged as to be forced onto a playing group I think is a bit much. No matter what change is made, its change and it can take some adjustment. This has been made worse for us with major injuries, and players still out that we thought we would have back by now.

When the club said yes to leppa, they said yes to a step backwards before we went forwards. We might have got lucky and not had too much problems, but more likely than not you are accepting a step back.

Many of the best teams in the past decade have been well drilled, playing a distinct style or brand of footy. The key isnt the gimmicky style part, its the well drilled part. I dont think you need to change ur coaching to suit the players, however, in saying that there does need to be some flex for variables. The underlining style, main points or foundations of that game plan or style doesnt change thought.

Leppa said in preseason he was still fine tuning as well, still learning where each player was best suited to play. Ive said it before, but he is learning and adapting as much as the players are this year.

 

[Kevvo]

Players like Golby, Harwood and Adcock have spent the last few seasons trying to clear the ball long from the defensive 50, and to overlap with handballs when possible. Now it seems they're expected to hold onto it and switch as the first option. Maybe they're just not suited to that style.

I think there is a fair bit of truth in this observation. It's also not helped by our mids struggling or refusing to run into space. In the post-match, Leppa picked up on this point and attributed it to a lack of confidence ratherthan fitness. That seems plausible given how we were running games out last year, and right now the two things are compounding eachother.

All told though, it is a young list with arguably 8 or 9 best 22 players missing. I can't imagine many teams absorbing those outs without getting pounded, regardless of coach or gameplan.

 

[blynd_freddie]

Bad recipe?

Good recipe that wasn't followed?

Good recipe made with substandard or substituted ingredients?

Good recipe with good ingredients but not in the oven long enough?

Recipe is fine [a Hardwick hand-me-down down from Hawthorn to Richmond to Lions]

Is just that the fruit is not yet ripe!

 

[Slax]

You want to ditch a coach after four games?

No matter which way you slice it, damning a coach after 4 games, with the injuries that we've had and a poor list from previous mistakes screams of petulance and knee-jerk reactions.

Absolutely ridiculous.

So we kick within a couple of kicks of playing finals, would've beaten Geelong at Geelong if not for a corrupt umpire and have a team that is for all purpose the same as we had on that day. Now we can't even win a quarter of football.

Our injury problems are there for all to see, but now after the preseason matches and 4 rounds into the season I am yet to see a single thing that suggest we are going forward. Realistically we have 1 winable game before the Bye in St Kilda. If we continue serving the same crap up again until the Bye then I'd be mighty pissed off if we still had the same coach when we play Carlton. They sacked Voss on the belief they could sign Roos, the belief nothing else. No we are reaching a point when if we don't move forward fast we will not only be destroying this year but next as well

 

[Loyal Lion]

This is still Voss's team here. We have no key forwards at all & a lack of genuine quality key backs. Merrett has too many brain fades to be considered a champion defender. Patfull has always battled against the odds, being undersized & he has performed brilliantly over the years. We're still getting smashed in the clearances, which doesn't help our defence. Browny is playing on memory only. I don't expect to see him last the year out to be honest. It's not fair that he has to be the forward line at his age. The young talls around him are still very raw. Staker & McGuane would be handy now.

Leppa has been here for 5 minutes & for any calls asking for his sacking are just stupid!

Judge him after 3 or 4 years, not after 4 rounds! I do admire the way in which he handles himself at the press conferences....not like a rabbit in the headlights like Neeld or a crazed dictator like Malthouse. He is still fairly measured, still keeps his sense of humour which is important in these times. To me, he looks & acts like he is still in control as the head coach.

 

[scott_the_man]

So we kick within a couple of kicks of playing finals, would've beaten Geelong at Geelong if not for a corrupt umpire and have a team that is for all purpose the same as we had on that day. Now we can't even win a quarter of football.

Our injury problems are there for all to see, but now after the preseason matches and 4 rounds into the season I am yet to see a single thing that suggest we are going forward. Realistically we have 1 winable game before the Bye in St Kilda. If we continue serving the same crap up again until the Bye then I'd be mighty pissed off if we still had the same coach when we play Carlton. They sacked Voss on the belief they could sign Roos, the belief nothing else. No we are reaching a point when if we don't move forward fast we will not only be destroying this year but next as well

richmond at the gabba this week is winable. richmond have been shitouse this year like us

 

[Haso]

So we kick within a couple of kicks of playing finals, would've beaten Geelong at Geelong if not for a corrupt umpire and have a team that is for all purpose the same as we had on that day. Now we can't even win a quarter of football.

Our injury problems are there for all to see, but now after the preseason matches and 4 rounds into the season I am yet to see a single thing that suggest we are going forward. Realistically we have 1 winable game before the Bye in St Kilda. If we continue serving the same crap up again until the Bye then I'd be mighty pissed off if we still had the same coach when we play Carlton. They sacked Voss on the belief they could sign Roos, the belief nothing else. No we are reaching a point when if we don't move forward fast we will not only be destroying this year but next as well

This is hysterical and the stuff of fantasy. No coach will ever be appointed and then sacked before he has even completed his first season, especially with injuries and suspension to just about every game-winner we have.

You are making absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I had a mate who drove from Melbourne to Adelaide for the game last weekend and here is his take on our "game plan."

1. If you have the ball, handball it to a player who is in a worse position than you / is hot.
2. If inside 50, definitely handball to a player who is in a worse position than you / is hot.
3. At all times play as indirect as possible. Maintain possession rather than attacking your goals.
4. Avoid quick ball movement. By following rule 3, ensure that opposition team has as many players inside your forward 50 as possible.
5. After the ball is turned over and the opposition goals, meet in your designated playing group (defence, midfield and forward line) and discuss what failings led to the opposition securing the ball and scoring. Please make this meaning as brief as possible.
6. In the event that you gain possession of the ball after the commencement of play, follow points 1 to 4.
7. If you are frustrated by any of this, get reported and take a couple of weeks to study the game plan. At the end of your period of suspension you will be rushed straight back into the side so you can share your insights with other players during on field team meetings.

 

[Ironmonger]

ZoBlitz, it had occurred to me to post in a different thread, but I couldn't see an appropriate active one. I'll look harder next time.

Yeah, I think it's hard to judge how fundamentalist he is about his gameplan from the outside and this early on.

I agree with that in principle, but as I said over the summer we heard a lot about changing running patterns, Leppitsch noting how little time he had to implement his changes, and what seems to be a real state of confusion out on the field right now. Put all of those things together and I reckon it looks like the changes have been pretty substantial, and that they're not what the players are used to.

So it looks to me like he went for revolution rather than evolution. Revolutionaries tend to be fundamentalists.

Can't blame a guy for having a preferred gameplan to begin with, you need to have a vision. And I think you have to give him some time to experiment and test out how various players respond to it.

I'd like to think that after a bit of experimentation you make adjustments to both player roles and the gameplan accordingly. My personal feeling is that Leppa is a pretty pragmatic soul and will be willing to adjust his own plan (to a degree) where required, as opposed to a Mark Neeld who very much seemed to be a "my way or GTFO" type bloke.

Still think we will be in the ugly experimentation phase for a while. I am sure every senior coaches gameplan looks full of merit on paper, but until it is tried in the head of battle with the soldiers at your disposal, you just don't know. As supporters we really have to swallow the poop sandwich and be patient for a while yet.

I agree with pretty much all of that, but I'd note that while it's too early to claim the entire gameplan is flawed, it's also too early make judgements about Leppa's willingness to be pragmatic and adapt. Which of course you acknowledge when you say it's just a personal feeling.

I completely agree that he needs time. I think it's okay to make judgements about his progress, even this early on.

The underlining style, main points or foundations of that game plan or style doesnt change thought.

Sorry for the snip, CD, but I think this is the main principle we disagree on. I do believe that a new coach coming to an existing team needs to go right back and consider the underlying style and the foundations of their preferred game plan, and try and get their team where they want to go in increments.

The exception would be if the team was so godawful (Melbourne) that there was little chance of them being competitive anyway.

I think there is a fair bit of truth in this observation. It's also not helped by our mids struggling or refusing to run into space. In the post-match, Leppa picked up on this point and attributed it to a lack of confidence ratherthan fitness. That seems plausible given how we were running games out last year, and right now the two things are compounding eachother.
All told though, it is a young list with arguably 8 or 9 best 22 players missing. I can't imagine many teams absorbing those outs without getting pounded, regardless of coach or gameplan.

You're right, but I think our problems run a bit deeper. I didn't think we were particularly undermanned against the Suns, but we still had real problems moving the ball around the ground, even in the first half when we were very much in the game.
This is the line you're referring to, I believe:

"We probably lost a bit of faith in what we were doing," he said.

That was a telling quote from Leppitsch, for mine. I think that shows that when things are going badly, when you can't be competitive, it gets harder to implement a new style. And that's why it's possible Leppitsch might have changed his approach slightly, if he had his time again.

Incidentally, apologies to all for the essay, but I think this is a really interesting discussion.

 

[notliondown]

It is a flawed plan that won't win finals footy and should not be implemented.

We desperately need a coach who has no ties to the club at all. Every coach we've tried who has had ties to the club has failed, we need real fresh blood in the place to not only shake up the players, but the board as well. We also need better skills coaching too, you can have all the pace in the world but if you can't hit a target more than 25m away its worthless.

I'm pretty sure that's what everyone said about Sydney a few years back and Freo of late. There was quite a few with busted crystal balls apparently...

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk