Now take out Heppell and Shiel (both fringe and in the 2's).
22.7 avg age.
61.7 avg games.
22.7 avg age.
61.7 avg games.
Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development
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Average age at Opening Round, 2024: 24.4 (12th oldest)
Average games: 75.5 (seventh most experienced)
Most games: Todd Goldstein (315)
Players with 100-plus games: 13
Players with less than 50 games: 19
Most finals games: Dylan Shiel (9)
Players with finals experience: 22
List analysis: Where your club ranks for age and experience
Who has the oldest list, who has the youngest, and which club has the most experience heading into 2024?www.afl.com.au
Had a feeling this would be the case. I think some fans like to think we're super young as a bit of an excuse for losing, but it's simply not the case.
owen87
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We were quite young when it comes to the actual team that ran out each week last season, and we have had quite a big gap in that age-bracket that should be in the 100 - 200 game region that we've back filled from other clubs. (6 of 13 > 100 games are trade-ins). Carlton have had to do similar (9 of 14 are trade-ins) because of a window of failed draft picks, in our case it's been a mix of saga sanctions and list upheaval as well as missing on a few draft picks in that window.
We've also corrected it going deeper down the list by swapping some fringe players for guys like Gresham, McKay and Duursma who are all long-term players that pad out the experience of the best 22 playing each week which should help with the late season fade-outs.
For comparison, GWS is only 3 of 11 via trade, Brisbane is 6 of 18, and Collingwood is 4 of 14 via trade. Geelong are 6/18, Sydney are 2/14. Being able to draft, develop and retain players is massive for list performance over time as it means not having to backfill experience and age brackets.
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Delist
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We were the second youngest list last season and it's only the recruitment this off season that has pushed us back up. AFL Club Lists for 2023 - Draftguru
It's not the excuse, but it is a bit of an excuse. Other factors include a coach in his first year, a key back being monstered and a lack of depth. And, inconsistency. Mix all of that together and we had no business sitting 5th by Round 17. We actually kinda overachieved in retrospect.
The core that we expect to take us beyond next year, is quite young. An average of 22.7 is just that. However, there's been work done in other areas such as stability, taking to the draft multiple times, adding extra depth and upgrading a few positions. So the time of playing around is over, and the time for exponential growth should now be the aim.
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I fully understand we have/had a young list - but again, with the young guys getting very limited chances, it's a bit of a reach to blame them for our form this year.
The Dees actually played their younger guys (18-21) quite a bit more than we did.
We definitely overachieved early on - and the thrashings at the end of the year probably evened it all out. We finished 11th, which is probably about where we sit and will likely finish in 2024.
Where are you getting the 22.7 average from? Our 2024 team will be 24.5, which is where the likes of Port/Carlton/Melbourne/etc. were this year. So really, we can't use 'youth' as an excuse any more - especially when we play less youth than most other sides.
We definitely missed those middle-age type players. And absolutely agree that trio of Gresham, Duursma and McKay will help us - they are improvements on three different parts of the ground.
owen87
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I don't know if it's you or someone else, but people keep saying this without any context whatsoever.
Our young guys who actually deserved to play have by and large played. Take a look at the list of our last ~ 3 years worth of draftees and tell me who should have played in 2023 but didn't. You'll most likely end up with Voss and Montgomery who were both very much fringe chances and haven't been picked up after being delisted.
Gotta understand the context of those games, we played a red hot GWS who were 1 point away from a GF vs the team we played in the last round who went on to win the flag. That's a perfect storm for any young side, especially at the pointy end of the season.
I said the core that we expect to take us beyond 2024, which does not include Heppell, Shiel or Goldstein (who all but one shouldn't be in the starting side). Take those out and the main group we're depending on averages 22.7 years and 61.7 games.
Context. Those teams have a lot more of a reliance on the older players, who've been at their clubs for long and have been better at their respective clubs, with more to give. Our ones that bump the average up are Hepp, Shiel and Goldy, all of which are depth at best. I expect us to exponentially improve (as should be our goal from now) but in the grand scheme of things we are a lot more inexperienced than a lot of people realise, but also a lot more even across the board than we've ever been before.
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Of that cohort we had Hobbs (18 games), Perkins (23) and Menzie (21) play most of the season and then had ADJ (10) play a decent amount of games. Tsatas, Reid, Cox, and J Davey were injured for a large portion of the season but Tsatas and Cox did come in when they were available. Baldwin is really the only one within your stated 18-21 age range that probably could've featured a bit more.
On the other hand Melbourne had McVee (25), Bowey (23) and JVR (20). Bailey and Laurie played 5 and 4 games respectively and then nothing else for the 18-21 aged players.
ant555
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Nothing like facts to sort things out.
We had one bloke who was unlucky not to play more games.
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Last year we had old blokes and young blokes.
Then in the offseason we added middle aged blokes.
Then in the offseason we added middle aged blokes.
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Can we delete this thread now our list is perfect?
Obviously come March we will have to create a new one but.. for now…
Obviously come March we will have to create a new one but.. for now…
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Which young guys were given limited opportunities?
ant555
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Baldwin.
Voss.
Despite plenty of evidence the other way it has seemed to be a continual claim by some.
Scott just likes to play the old blokes was the call.
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I could be wrong but wasn't his mandate at norf to win a flag at any cost? That kind of approach would probably lead to more emphasis on senior players at the expense of exposing the youth to the top level and longer term development.
If he's been told to come here and develop the list he's probably going to give the younger guys more of ago (which it seems he has)
If he's been told to come here and develop the list he's probably going to give the younger guys more of ago (which it seems he has)
Bryan, Baldwin, Voss & Montgomerie only played 12 games between them. Easier to say in hindsight, but they probably should have played more.
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Yes, but what I originally said and what my original point was, was that we can't really be blaming 'youth' any more than Melbourne can.
Arguable.
I'd have probably rather see Voss than Weideman at one stage during the year - and I think we'd have been a better team playing Montgomerie over Heppell at some stages.
owen87
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Two of those guys got delisted without anyone picking them up. It's not like they were banging the door down. Voss is also a medium forward competing with Stringer / Langford not a KPF height or playstyle.
Could they have played? Sure. Is it some kind of grievous offence that they didn't such that it's a checkmark against Scott? No one but you seems to think so.
I just don't understand the idea of removing Heppell, Shiel and Goldstein from calculations - they are all 100% playing AFL if fully fit. And I'd say there's at least a 50% chance all will be back in 2024 - and if they aren't, we'll still go out and recruit some more 30 year olds, bringing the average age back up.
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