MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma

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cleveland said:
Yep you know why? Because when hes poor thats all i hear haha
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Don't let the views of others sway you. Also don't let the fear of him failing overrule good sense and patience.
If you look at his performances in isolation and in context and still feel that he isn't up to snuff then cool. But back your own judgment not that of others and that even includes guys like me and Pan.
 

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Was good in the ruck today.

Could've sulked his way through a muddy day in the reserves, particularly after a tough start, but his second half was excellent.

Needs to use his voice more out there but the mindset was right.
 
immortalmike said:
Don't let the views of others sway you. Also don't let the fear of him failing overrule good sense and patience.
If you look at his performances in isolation and in context and still feel that he isn't up to snuff then cool. But back your own judgment not that of others and that even includes guys like me and Pan.
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Mates...work mates...family members!!! its bloody endless haha
 
What I would like to see on this thread is a discussion on his development, as any discussion on a number 1 key forward should have.
I reckon even among Bulldogs supporters there's still too much talk on his contract.
Factor in:
  • 95% rule
  • Front-loading
  • Cap rising over time
  • Performance-based pay late in this contract
And the contract shouldn't be a worry to anyone.
What should be a worry is the fact we have a key forward and his development and the fact that we gave up Pick 6 (and what we would have otherwise gotten for Griffen) Pick 7 for him. Pick 6 and Pick 7 for him was the investment, be worried about that, be worried about the development of a guy, a guy we have was meant to be the next dominant key forward at age 17, but don't be worried about the contract. Our list management team did the economics of it all and came out with a very smart contract offer that lured Boyd with $6-7 million dangled in front of his eyes but has less of an impact on the salary cap than you'd think.
 
His bodywork in marking contests is just non existent. He needs a clean run at it, which doesn't happen against good defenders. You'd think since we spent so much on him that we would put in some effort to surround him with good mentors. Yet all he's got is a apprentice forward line coach in Gia, who's been thrown into the deep end without any experience (which might explain some of our scoring problems).

Also our forward line don't work for each other at all. I haven't seen a single block laid for any of our big forwards all year. Ever wonder how Bruce and Rooey are able to create so much separation? it's because StKildas small forwards lay blocks for them at every opportunity.
Eg watch 2nd half of this video: http://www.saints.com.au/video/2015-07-21/engine-room-blocking
This makes Bruce look like a lot better forward than he actually is.

Don't get me wrong, I love Gia, but when you consider that Bevo came to us as a backline specialist, it just makes sense to bring in a experienced forwards coach or atleast someone in a part time role to help out. GWS got Dermie working with Cameron and Patton part time, Essendon got Loyd working with Daniher part time etc. But please not Barry Hall, he needs someone that can teach him good bodywork. The last thing we want is another pure lead up forward.
 
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Well Bev has brought no-one in as yet as his own appointments, expect more expert forward coach is a must in the off - season.
 

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Tommycash said:
It's hard. Seeing players like Daniher and Hogan come in and just show something immense quite quickly raises everyone's expectations. Some players are later bloomers though.
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Daniher hadn't really showed much more than Boyd at the same point in his career.
Hogan has had had two full preseasons and a mid year training program more than Boyd and far more rests.

Doggstats said:
His bodywork in marking contests is just non existent. He needs a clean run at it, which doesn't happen against good defenders. You'd think since we spent so much on him that we would put in some effort to surround him with good mentors. Yet all he's got is a apprentice forward line coach in Gia, who's been thrown into the deep end without any experience (which might explain some of our scoring problems).

Also our forward line don't work for each other at all. I haven't seen a single block laid for any of our big forwards all year. Ever wonder how Bruce and Rooey are able to create so much separation? it's because StKildas small forwards lay blocks for them at every opportunity.
Eg watch 2nd half of this video: http://www.saints.com.au/video/2015-07-21/engine-room-blocking
This makes Bruce look like a lot better forward than he actually is.

Don't get me wrong, I love Gia, but when you consider that Bevo came to us as a backline specialist, it just makes sense to bring in a experienced forwards coach or atleast someone in a part time role to help out. GWS got Dermie working with Cameron and Patton part time, Essendon got Loyd working with Daniher part time etc. But please not Barry Hall, he needs someone that can teach him good bodywork. The last thing we want is another pure lead up forward.
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You mean the forwardline that consists of mostly 2nd and 3rd year players?
I'm not sure anyone could do a better job with them at the moment. Consistently our most inexperienced line week in week out.
 
immortalmike said:
You mean the forwardline that consists of mostly 2nd and 3rd year players?
I'm not sure anyone could do a better job with them at the moment. Consistently our most inexperienced line week in week out.
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Did you watch that video I linked? Jack Lonie is a 18 year old first year player that consistently lays blocks for Bruce each week to help him take easy uncontested marks. If anything, because our forward line is so young they need good systems and structures in place so they don't have to rely on beating bigger more experienced defenders 1 on 1.
 
Doggstats said:
Did you watch that video I linked? Jack Lonie is a 18 year old first year player that consistently lays blocks for Bruce each week to help him take easy uncontested marks. If anything, because our forward line is so young they need good systems and structures in place so they don't have to rely on beating bigger more experienced defenders 1 on 1.
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Yeah and their captain and best player is also their chf. Lonie is following by example.
 
It seems the biggest concern of many is his athleticism and speed. I contend that these are fine for a guy his size and are being amplified by his average body use and timing right now. His speed is no worse than Hogan's in my opinion but Hogan is much stronger and much fitter, allowing him to fit in seamlessly and look as though he's quicker as he generates more space. This is supported by this article from 2013 in which a number of recruiters and draft followers rated the attributes of these players - funnily enough Boyd was actually rated as being quicker than Hogan and marginally slower than Patton and Daniher. He needs to time his usage of the body better and also improve his ability to break contact with his opponent, but his ability to do either of these things will not be limited by his pace. And, realistically, once he earns that break, even if the defender has good closing speed, how are they going to compete with a 200cm guy jumping in the air with his arms outstretched from behind?

As for his athleticism, here's an interesting quote from Ash Hansen today:
Boyd started forward but it was his work in the middle that most pleased his coach.

“I thought he showed some good signs in the ruck where we were getting beaten.”

“He worked hard all day and at times showed us how good he can be in the role of an athletic, mobile ruckman.”
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He also didn't get blown away by near-Olympic steeplechaser Mark Blicavs the previous week while matched up against him. He is by no means a quick, athletic beast, but once his other attributes catch up and he's able to get the initial break from his defender, it will not at all limit him. It's not that bad but is being made to look worse by other issues in his game that are very much fixable with time, strength and experience.

Boyd may not develop into a superstar and we'll all have our own opinions of where he will eventually get to. But let's not forget that with poor strength, poor endurance and an awkward body shape currently filled up of 'meaningless' weight, he helped balance and structure the forward line of a team well and truly in the finals hunt, and a team that boasted wins over numerous top eight sides. This is no easy feat - we've seen numerous mature but average players fail to do the same thing in a more experienced side. It's no coincidence that since he went down with injury and his form dropped our forward structure has gone out the window completely. To add to that, in 12 games (before going down) he boasted 16 goals, 18 inside 50s and 41 marks - 17 contested and 19 inside 50 (as an aside, to take that many uncontested marks on AFL standard defenders given his attributes, his athleticism is clearly not as bad as is made out) himself. They aren't bad stats from a second year key forward in his mould, not at all. His presence alone generated countless goals for his teammates and that is something that we have not had from a key forward since Barry Hall. He's already doing better than many of the types that we've played there over the years and they were far more experienced and far more physically capable.

Personally: stop worrying about the opposition supporters and media grubs; stop worrying about the contract and whether he'll ever return the entirety of our investment; and stop worrying about his week-to-week form. All of that is irrelevant. Enjoy what he is now and the development we're seeing in him. For over half a year, despite his well-publicised physical limitations and inexperience, he held down one of the hardest positions on the ground to play in a bloody good looking team and he did it well. He's already playing his role and will only get better, and that's a scary proposition.
 
It's all getting silly to be honest.
Went today and thought he was pretty good considering we were to top heavy.
Minson and Cordy were spectators, and I'm getting sick of the constant discussion .
Wouldn't be the silliest idea to get some coaching for Tom, and even GWS with their early picks get outside help with their key forwards.Tom Hawkins ( the comparison to Boyd ) took 3 years to get a kick at AFL level, and the talk became louder that he wouldn't make it. He needs to improve aspects of his game, no doubt .
Liam Jones still gets buffeted off the ball and he's been in the system for 7 years
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
It seems the biggest concern of many is his athleticism and speed. I contend that these are fine for a guy his size and are being amplified by his average body use and timing right now. His speed is no worse than Hogan's in my opinion but Hogan is much stronger and much fitter, allowing him to fit in seamlessly and look as though he's quicker as he generates more space. This is supported by this article from 2013 in which a number of recruiters and draft followers rated the attributes of these players - funnily enough Boyd was actually rated as being quicker than Hogan and marginally slower than Patton and Daniher. He needs to time his usage of the body better and also improve his ability to break contact with his opponent, but his ability to do either of these things will not be limited by his pace. And, realistically, once he earns that break, even if the defender has good closing speed, how are they going to compete with a 200cm guy jumping in the air with his arms outstretched from behind?

As for his athleticism, here's an interesting quote from Ash Hansen today:

He also didn't get blown away by near-Olympic steeplechaser Mark Blicavs the previous week while matched up against him. He is by no means a quick, athletic beast, but once his other attributes catch up and he's able to get the initial break from his defender, it will not at all limit him. It's not that bad but is being made to look worse by other issues in his game that are very much fixable with time, strength and experience.

Boyd may not develop into a superstar and we'll all have our own opinions of where he will eventually get to. But let's not forget that with poor strength, poor endurance and an awkward body shape currently filled up of 'meaningless' weight, he helped balance and structure the forward line of a team well and truly in the finals hunt, and a team that boasted wins over numerous top eight sides. This is no easy feat - we've seen numerous mature but average players fail to do the same thing in a more experienced side. It's no coincidence that since he went down with injury and his form dropped our forward structure has gone out the window completely. To add to that, in 12 games (before going down) he boasted 16 goals, 18 inside 50s and 41 marks - 17 contested and 19 inside 50 (as an aside, to take that many uncontested marks on AFL standard defenders given his attributes, his athleticism is clearly not as bad as is made out) himself. They aren't bad stats from a second year key forward in his mould, not at all. His presence alone generated countless goals for his teammates and that is something that we have not had from a key forward since Barry Hall. He's already doing better than many of the types that we've played there over the years and they were far more experienced and far more physically capable.

Personally: stop worrying about the opposition supporters and media grubs; stop worrying about the contract and whether he'll ever return the entirety of our investment; and stop worrying about his week-to-week form. All of that is irrelevant. Enjoy what he is now and the development we're seeing in him. For over half a year, despite his well-publicised physical limitations and inexperience, he held down one of the hardest positions on the ground to play in a bloody good looking team and he did it well. He's already playing his role and will only get better, and that's a scary proposition.
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Great post.

3 likes from me
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
Personally: stop worrying about the opposition supporters and media grubs; stop worrying about the contract and whether he'll ever return the entirety of our investment; and stop worrying about his week-to-week form.
Click to expand...

I think this is really important. It's hard to expect the average supporter to not get worked up when opposition clubs are bagging us.. But if we are confident that is he is going to turn out well (and I think the majority of the bigfooty bulldog supporter base does) then lets not respond to their troll posts because the proof will be in the pudding and we know why we did what we did.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
It seems the biggest concern of many is his athleticism and speed. I contend that these are fine for a guy his size and are being amplified by his average body use and timing right now.
Click to expand...

My biggest concerns are his fitness, and the combination of lack of aggression and lack of forward smarts (for AFL level). I have no doubt he'll improve, but I don't see a superstar.
 
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