Opinion Paradise postponed at Richmond

[THE THIN MAN]

Richmond's renaissance has stalled, if not reversed. Paradise has been postponed, or indefinitely cancelled. The Tigers will not be at the pointy end of the ladder in 2014 and, from 1-3, they have as much chance of playing finals as the Bulldogs.

To be one win and three losses wouldn't be disastrous if Richmond had been lumbered with Collingwood's schedule. Alas, it has dropped three "eight point'' games, to Gold Coast, the Bulldogs and Collingwood. It is yet to run into the truly nasty cage matches, such as Hawthorn, Freo, Geelongand West Coast in Perth.

They should be lighting candles to Carlton at Punt Road this week.



Read more: www.canberratimes.com.au/afl/afl-news/paradise-postponed-at-richmond-20140412-zqu0r.html

 

[Cotcho]

This guys spot on. He has either been reading this board or he has done his homework otherwise.

Mods direct all roast threads and traffic to this new mega thread. That article provides a thorough history of our past and current situation.

 

[Tiger08]

"Blair Hartley's eye for a recycled/overlooked bargain has seen Richmond plug some short-term holes with Shaun Grigg, Bachar Houli, Ivan Maric, Steven Morris and now Matt Thomas and Shaun Hampson. Individually, these players are AFL-standard; collectively, to have six of them - plus Shane Edwards, Jake King, an inconsistent Vickery and a raft of unprovens such as Ben Griffiths and Dylan Grimes - creates a critical mass of C-graders. Some might graduate to Bs, most won't.

Vickery's future must be up for discussion. He has talent and, from what one can gather, is a thoughtful young man. The Tigers, alas, need a genuine power forward. Vickery's value lies as a third tall, since he isn't built for punishment and his poor games are double bogeys. The Tigers remain a big man short and if King is your only defensive small forward, you're in strife. Dustin Martin is a one-way runner who doesn't tackle.

Vlastuin is very capable, Ellis is capable of much better. At Richmond, that pair don't have the luxury of being gradually eased into the frontline, in the manner of young Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong mids. Brett Deledio's abilities have been underappreciated; his worth is more evident when the Tigers are without him. Cotchin carries an inordinate leadership load

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...at-richmond-20140412-zqu0r.html#ixzz2yi5H1PU0"

That's actually a really good breakdown of where we stand IMO. Our top end is good enough (if playing) to get us to the bottom of the eight but we're probably still too weak to really push for a flag.

The good news is all those recycled B/C-graders are in the older part of the list. We need to keep drafting well and pull some free agent moves like the Dons to become a contender.

 

[WATiger86]

santa claws has been saying this for years, "glass half fulls"...

 

[Googstar]

santa claws has been saying this for years, "glass half fulls"...

Still staggers me that people are happy with the duds we keep chasing, or the length of time that we keep players who just are not good enough.

 

[Tigerland]

Spot on article.

Vickery needs to be dropped and his father told that the position he holds at the club is compromising his son's career.

Donald McDonald stepped down from his position when his Son was drafted to North.

Name one player in the AFL (other than Vickery) that has their father working at the club?

Completely ridiculous. Amateur hour, and I am so pissed off with this club. Sick of handing over hard earnt cash to these peanuts.

 

[TJTIGER]

I think he's spot on (article). What getting recycled players does (imho), is buy us a little time with development. Having said that, they will only take us so far but, the minimum of 7th/8th in finals is not too bad (short term). I did wonder last year if our result was a little "inflated", perhaps ? But clearly our injuries have played a part this season which has put a lot of players under pressure (next tier down). This is not a bad thing though (except for win/loss ledger), it will tell Dimma a lot about the 18-25 range blokes. That may have taken more time to come to the fore. This season will also tell us a lot about Dimma & how he handles this type of situation. Although from his pressa like most other things I think he will meet this challenge thoughtfully, measured then full steam head on.

 

[TJTIGER]

Still staggers me that people are happy with the duds we keep chasing, or the length of time that we keep players who just are not good enough.

Dimma made no secret of his plans when he first arrived that, when a player finished at the club they would be given every opportunity to develop. That opportunity will vary for each player (greatly) with many variables. I back the list managers/coaches on this as someone looking at the club from the outside. Although once again as an outsider, I have been frustrated at times with this aspect of the clubs performance. So I get you Googstar ... . Having said that the club can't fix it all in a few seasons. RFC is still in a number of ways a work in progress. Nice to be able to say that some big steps have been taken in Dimma's tenure though & will continue...

 

[tigs2010]

Still staggers me that people are happy with the duds we keep chasing, or the length of time that we keep players who just are not good enough.

It started off well. Problem is we settled with some and didn't try upgrade. Then we just brought in a mish-mash of crap.

 

[Deanos]

Spot on article.

Vickery needs to be dropped and his father told that the position he holds at the club is compromising his son's career.

Donald McDonald stepped down from his position when his Son was drafted to North.

Name one player in the AFL (other than Vickery) that has their father working at the club?

Completely ridiculous. Amateur hour, and I am so pissed off with this club. Sick of handing over hard earnt cash to these peanuts.

Phil Scully.

 

[Tas]

Spot on article.

Vickery needs to be dropped and his father told that the position he holds at the club is compromising his son's career.

Donald McDonald stepped down from his position when his Son was drafted to North.

Name one player in the AFL (other than Vickery) that has their father working at the club?

Completely ridiculous. Amateur hour, and I am so pissed off with this club. Sick of handing over hard earnt cash to these peanuts.

What role does Vickery snr have at Richmond? Donald McDonald stepped down from his football department role but is still working at the club in the Marketing department, was just a conflict of interest in the role he was working in previously.

 

[tugga]

Jake Niall is an excellent journo. Knows his stuff inside out and unlike others, he actually talks to real people.

 

[theflea]

Spot on article.

Vickery needs to be dropped and his father told that the position he holds at the club is compromising his son's career.

Donald McDonald stepped down from his position when his Son was drafted to North.

Name one player in the AFL (other than Vickery) that has their father working at the club?

Completely ridiculous. Amateur hour, and I am so pissed off with this club. Sick of handing over hard earnt cash to these peanuts.

Ah Donald Macdonald. He is still there mate. All his old man does is fitness and nothing else.

 

[theflea]

What role does Vickery snr have at Richmond? Donald McDonald stepped down from his football department role but is still working at the club in the Marketing department, was just a conflict of interest in the role he was working in previously.

He is the boxing coach and tigerland is jumping at shadows.

 

[tigs2010]

The only time it would become an issue is when Vickery snr hands out the red vest to his son.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Good piece.
With a cracking draft this year, our off-season movements will be fascinating.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

santa claws has been saying this for years, "glass half fulls"...

Incorrect

It's "sheesh the flowrsniffers are at it again if ive told you once ive told you a thousand times we have a list of 99% duds you flower sniffing fools who are destroying my club worship with you deluded overrating of our lack of talent glass half full sheesh I wish"

 

[Madtiger2006]

Good piece.
With a cracking draft this year, our off-season movements will be fascinating.

We definitely have the making of a strong list. Just need to concentrate on Pace and trim off the rejects. If we don't make these changes we'll go nowhere for a decade.

 

[Wallaby]

The primary thing is luck. I know that sounds trite - but the AFL Draft is a lottery at the top. For all clubs. If you get it right - well, consider yourself blessed. We know Geelong blitzed the 2001 draft, but apart from Mackie in 2002, they didn't hit any home runs until Selwood in 2006. They then got probably the two best players in the next two drafts - Selwood (No 6) and Taylor( No 17). Collingwood had 2 picks in the top 5 in 2005 - they went for Thomas (okaaay, I guess) and then got Pendlebury - the best of the lot at No 5. In the same draft, after killing it in 2004, Hawthorn picked Ellis and Thorp - both in the top 6. They passed on Pendlebury - just like they passed on Franklin the year before..

We've had our share of luck - after taking Murphy and Gibbs, Kruezer was absolutely the right pick for Carlton in 2007 - so we got stuck with Cotchin. There were 3 guys at the top of the draft in 2009 - we were left with whoever Melbourne didn't want - Martin. The best player from 2009 is clearly Fyfe - and he was Freo's 2nd pick (OK, Morabito's had injuries and may have been good, but you get my point).

For all the talk about 'Great Recruiters' - there are none regarding the superstars. It's a complete toss-up. Too many factors to consider - including will the player get the right development, the go-home factor for interstaters, the place he fits into the football team, does he get on with the coach and players, and - a big one - will his body stand up to the enormously increased physical load of senior football?

Most high draft picks (top 10-ish) will have at least an OK career - the talent will carry them through. Most of the superstars today were High Draft picks (or F/S). Ablett is probably the major exception (would have struggled to crack the Top-20 if not F/S).

So to build a top team, yes, you need those recruiters to fill in the gaps with mid-range picks, a couple of mature rookies who come good and a few retreads for specific roles - but you need to get those stars, somehow. Hawthorn and Sydney make a virtue out of their recycled players - but they still have a core of stars (Mitchell and Goodes - arguably their best players - were speculative picks in the 30s). We've had a lot of low-picks and recycleds because our drafting has missed the mark the last decade. Mostly because of luck.

We have at best 3 top-line stars - Cotchin, Deledio and Riewoldt. All high draft picks (we would have taken Riewoldt at 8 if we had kept the pick). None are
Guaranteed AA level or the like. Our other top-20 draft picks include Vickery, Griffiths, Rance, Ellis, Conca and maybe one or two I've forgotten (inc the really young kids). Since 2002, we have had the following Top-20 draft picks that are not with us anymore:
Schulz, Tambling, Meyer, Pattinson, Polo, and JON. They should be our core.

That's a lot of picks to only get 2 or 3 superstars out of - arguably we don't have any superstars (Both Cotchin and Riewoldt may have had a good season or two - for various reasons they haven't played near that level for a couple of years). And that's why we have been crap. We've missed on too many high picks, and we haven't found a low-draft gem (like Mitchell, or Fyfe, or Goodes, or Swann).

It's why GC and GWS are going to dominate - with that many High Draft Picks, they are inevitably going to come away with more stars than anyone else. But it will be by luck rather than any magical recruiting selections.

TL, dr...

 

[WATiger86]

Incorrect

It's "sheesh the flowrsniffers are at it again if ive told you once ive told you a thousand times we have a list of 99% duds you flower sniffing fools who are destroying my club worship with you deluded overrating of our lack of talent glass half full sheesh I wish"

Touché.

But "sheesh", barring an unexpected change in fortunes, it's hard to say he wasn't spot on with his assessment though!

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Phil Scully.

Tried to get his son to Richmond.

 

[1980GFVideo]

These C graders cant be replaced with good players overnight.

A balanced view of why we wont be doing anything this year finals wise or a completely drunk rant.

Whats the difference. Same reality at the end of it. I almost sent an angry email to the Melbourne Renegades today asking why I havent recieved any updates as to what they are doing at the moment.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Underlying all this is the old issue that when Wallace left we had a huge hole in the age group that should be the core of the squad. We've drafted quite well since then, but not amazingly. And we've picked up players to fill the hole in the list. You just cannot solve a decade of poor management easily. Carlton is about to find that out. Our retreads have done well, and have created a lot fo depth where we had none.

What we really need right now is injured players to return and for Conca, Ellis, Vlas to step up a notch. Simply put the potential is there for a midfield that bats about 6 deep for real class, with anothe 8 decent players. That is a top line midfield that can form the core of a preiership. But right now we need a heap of players, with talent, to step up to another level. Then we have the problems of talls moving from talented but eratic to consistent talent. Ty Vickery is the obvious example of this. If Astbury and Rance make out as good as tehy look to possibly be then we havet he core of a good defence. But right now we are still developing and will keep filling in list needs for another 2-3 years.

Glass half full - paradise is around the corner when our younger guys ramp it up.

Glass half empty - paradise is delayed as we have a thin list that never gets beyond OK.

We know we have the talent to be very good. We also know that the solid consistent hard at it nature of a true tiger team is beyond our current squad - right now. Maybe it will all click and we go gangbusters this year. But I now expect to just move the squad forward this year. We know we need more runners with skills. We need a good small forward. And we need heaps of development of the talent we already have.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Touché.

But "sheesh", barring an unexpected change in fortunes, it's hard to say he wasn't spot on with his assessment though!

No, he's always taken the easy route.

10/18 teams fail to make finals, so predicting failure will be rewarded more often than not

Most draft picks fail , with success as low as 6% after the first couple of rounds. So betting on draftee failure is shooting fish in a barrel

Then you juice these probabilities with our lowly position, and all he did was make the safe easy bet.

Claw is the master of cheap shots