Discussion Player development St Kilda v Geelong

[BrianSpeaking]

Good post but a few points. Lang was leading the B&F by miles until he broke his leg so it's not like he was pulled from outer space. Acres and Dunstan have had the chance to shine because they don't have to push anyone out to get a game - the space is there. Lang is another matter - Geelong finished equal top of the ladder last year and he's behind Bartel, Selwood, Caddy, Duncan, Guthrie etc.

Secondly, we aren't really topping up on recycled talent like you guys did which Schneider et al. Our FA strategy like the Hawks is in place to cover gaps in the squad until a young player is ready to take over. A placeholder if you will.

You can revisit it in 5 years or in 10 or in 15. I just don't think the Cats, due to their off-field set up, will ever drastically plummet down the ladder.

Lastly, the reason people don' see us falling off the cliff is our age profile and games we are getting into our youngsters is better than what Freo is doing. Rather than continually pushing for top 4 we are managing our list and retiring our former greats.

Rivers? Look, the reality is you will fall off the cliff, and it will happen before you know it, it's the way the system is designed. We didn't top up with Schneider, we got him as a 23 year old kid. He has played 8 years for us. If you think Clarke, Caddy and Stanley will help you long term then you are deluded. In regards to Lang, he was a speculative pick which was great as Acres fell to us.

 

[manboob]

Rivers? Look, the reality is you will fall off the cliff, and it will happen before you know it, it's the way the system is designed. We didn't top up with Schneider, we got him as a 23 year old kid. He has played 8 years for us. If you think Clarke, Caddy and Stanley will help you long term then you are deluded. In regards to Lang, he was a speculative pick which was great as Acres fell to us.

Bookmarked.
Rivers is exactly the player I was referring to. 28 - he comes in fils the gap for 3 years between Scarlo retiring and Kolo or someone else standing up. Rivers retires: job's done. Long term Clarke and Stanley will help us for the aforementioned reason. And Caddy just turned 22 - he will help us long term indeed.

 

[strauchnyy]

What rubbish, how would any of us know where 15 other clubs rated Ablett?
Ablett may have only been considered worthy of a second round pick… If Geelong did not rate him then perhaps another club would have drafted him in the second round, or if you matched it, then Steve Johnson goes elsewhere.

He was rated in the 25 - 40 pick range. Not the first round pick you like to assume he was. Only Hawkins was ever considered a first round pick at the time. I'm not here to pick nitty gritty arguments with you, I'm merely just correcting some posters here who think we were gifted a first round F/S when we clearly wern't.

You’re damn straight it’s the saints board & btw, no-one on here has said “Geelong won flags purely because of the F/S.”
While your development may be top notch, there is no denying that players linked to the F/S rule in one way or another have played a pivotal role in at least 2 flags won by close margins… So when weighing up how incredible the development has been down there, it’s worth considering that while you have won 3 flags, some extenuating circumstances have contributed and are still contributing.

Pivotal? No. Contributed, yes.

We won 2009 by a close margin, and 2011 by 6 goals. Even still in the 2011 example, the Pies got Cloke F/S whilst also having Pendlebury the same year as a priority pick. Collingwood would have had to chose between Cloke and Thomas and in today's rules would not have had Pendlebury. We would have won by a lot more than 6 goals had the current rules been the case.

The F/S rule was certainly not the reason we beat you guys in 2009.. you had 2 priority picks running around that would outweigh 1 first round F/S. Not our fault we developed ours and you mucked yours up (was it Xavier Clarke you used one of the picks on? I could be mistaken). Kosi was a better contributor than Hawkins in the 2009 GF. Hawkins hardly got a kick.

The F/S of Hawkins had zero effect on the results of our 3 flags. A contribution perhaps, but no bearing on 3 flags and to say otherwise just childish as one other poster put it.

Handouts? that’s the whole point, you shouldn’t have had any as you have never qualified…

I have no doubt that Geelong’s development has been very good and much better than ours, but it’s relevance to success dwarfed by the influx of high end talent for very little cost.

No.

Our core team was made up of very good development of 3rd, 4th and later picks. Ling, Enright, Chappy, Rooke, Egan, Christensen, Harely, Milburn, wojac, mooney etc and we are still in the top 3rd. That is were our success came from.

We had 1 player worthy of going in the first round so you could argue we would never had gotten Selwood. That's it. On the other hand, you received 2 priority picks. Our success would hardly have changed and we would still have 3 flags to our name.

So no, your mob had access to more top end talent for minimal cost than us.

At least we are all on the same page about your current captain and triple premiership star, he would not be at Geelong if the rules were made fair a year earlier. So in effect Geelong will continue to benefit from a bung law until Selwood and Hawkins retire, in fact probably even longer as the compo for Ablett is also at play.

St Kilda received 2 priority picks compared to our single F/S. You have us covered when it comes to receiving boosts. Secondly, our success was driven by a core group of late picks (generally later picks than St Kilda) that still drive us today. The F/S we had obviously assisted us, and we broke no rules so to speak, but it certainly was not "pivotal" to our success as you say and imply.

But hey, you can twist and turn things to suit how you want to believe them, I won't stop you, but the fact is success is not driven by a couple players, it's driven by a team.

 

[strauchnyy]

geelong supporters....unbelievable...now they think ablett was a 3rd rounder in his draft year. i'd understand you pitching for a 2nd rounder. but a third rounder... its just not true.

as Axcellence posted, for someone you didnt even rate, amazing you offered a 3 year deal

i went to school with a state player in the same draft year. ablett is a big name. he attracted attention and even back then people knew he was good

Look, I couldn't give a stuff whether you believe so or not, that's your choice. But ablett was considered a 3rd round pick and by media reports in the 25 - 40+ range, with some papers even saying he was picked purely by his name.

Anyone saying he was a first rounder is pure fuffery and just wrong, and usually just a lie people like to use to exaggerate Geelong's F/S success. Whether there was a club who were going to take him in the second round.. who knows, i'm going on what information was publicly available.

I also had a mate in the Geelong Falcons who played alongside Gaz. His advice was that he was a good user but hardly ever got more than a dozen possies and was merely a dangerous small forward. Take from that what you will, this is your board, I'm leaving now.. but Gaz was never more than a 3rd round pick (or late second if you go by the abovementioned range) according to all publicly available information at the time.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Look, I couldn't give a stuff whether you believe so or not, that's your choice. But ablett was considered a 3rd round pick and by media reports in the 25 - 40+ range, with some papers even saying he was picked purely by his name.

Anyone saying he was a first rounder is pure fuffery and just wrong, and usually just a lie people like to use to exaggerate Geelong's F/S success. Whether there was a club who were going to take him in the second round.. who knows, i'm going on what information was publicly available.

I also had a mate in the Geelong Falcons who played alongside Gaz. His advice was that he was a good user but hardly ever got more than a dozen possies and was merely a dangerous small forward. Take from that what you will, this is your board, I'm leaving now.. but Gaz was never more than a 3rd round pick (or late second if you go by the abovementioned range) according to all publicly available information at the time.

You are missing the point, Ablett and co were nominated before the draft as being your picks, they were free hits AND you also got early picks. Under today's model you wouldn't have gotten them, simple. You also wouldn't have gotten Selwood, we were going to take him with our pick 2 picks later.
Would also love to have seen Geelong not nominate Gary under today's rules, then turn into the star he was for your flags for St Kilda or Collingwood, Geelong would have been burnt to the ground, surely you get he point?
BTW, if you are coming to our board, you are a guest, the agro language is not required, Defacto is one of our fairest and most respected posters.

 

[Kilroy]

Bookmarked.
Rivers is exactly the player I was referring to. 28 - he comes in fils the gap for 3 years between Scarlo retiring and Kolo or someone else standing up. Rivers retires: job's done. Long term Clarke and Stanley will help us for the aforementioned reason. And Caddy just turned 22 - he will help us long term indeed.

Getting Cockatoo seems clever given you lost 2 indigenous players this year, and I'm a Darcy Lang fan but I do think Goddard and Dunstan will make you reconsider long term. And thanks for learnin' Hughy for us.
I do agree with your proposition though.
We should never have gotten into this ridiculous situation in the first place. Topping up with dud players (like a few we got from Richmond) doesn't cut the mustard and neither does worshipping the cult of youth.
A spread of ages and a no excuses policy helps.
I like how you're re-hiring your greats too, like we've done with Schneiderman starting his coaching apprenticeship as a "rookie" come gap-filler, although he's more of a loyal foot soldier really.
Don't know if you weren't aiming for top four though. It's ok to feel a little disappointed with your team. Come chat to us if you do.
We're the philosophical types.

 

[kernelT]

You are missing the point.

Completely... When talking about players who have played a pivitol role, we are also talking about the players secured with picks that they may not have if bidding was in place like it is now.

Bartel, Johnson - Ablett

Mackie & Lonergan were taken before Callan - I have no idea how he was rated.

Ottens was traded in for picks that potentially would have been needed to secure Nathan Ablett who was pretty highly rated from memory.

Then finally Selwood - Hawkins.

Obviously we'll never know which players would have been bid on and which round, but you can bet that both Abletts & Hawkins would have had some interest.

Take out just one or two players above and a lot of things change, it's just farcical to suggest that none of the three flags were effected by the F/S rule when clearly all 3 have been in a big way.

The doggies must be spewing with their F/S's coming too late... Ayce Cordy is prime example of clubs bidding on a player simply to force their hand. If they could have had Cordy, Libba & Wallace plus early draftees like the cats did I'm sure they would be in a better position, no doubt.

No-one is blaming the cats for simply using the rules as they were... Good on them, you still have to pick the right players with your free hits & develop them... Clearly they've made the most of their opportunities and are a really well run club. It doesn't hide the fact that a very good list of players was put together through extraordinary circumstances, via a loophole which has been closed for a reason.

While geelong may well have the best development in the league, having a group of gun talents is the biggest factor in winning games IMO.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Absolutely nothing wrong with peeps from a different clubs boards popping in for some healthy discussion on another teams board.
And im sure you Geelong boys ( Manbbob, Strauchnyy & bph25 ) are all top blokes and also good passionate Cats supporters

But i gotta admit i never understand why opposition supporters want to still hang around when after a while its obvious both parties just arent going to see eye to eye and you just start to get frustrated and things just keep going round n round n round or things maybe even get heated.
But hey! If people enjoy arguing over something your never going to agree on then knock your selves out

Good luck for next yr Pussy Cats ( except when you play against us of course )

 

[Kildonan]

I wanted posters here to recognise that the "culture" of the St Kilda FC has changed - we used to be considered the party boy club, however the group that took us through a decade of 12+ wins a season were a dedicated group. They and their coaches strongly sought to drag the club forward. They adopted cutting edge technologies, employed leading fitness staff, worked with university research groups, upgraded the staffing structure then upgraded the staff.

Essentially this club has been rebuilt several times in the process of catching up with the other clubs.

Despite having fewer resources financially, I think we now are equal to the best. We need to be even better.

Gold Coast and GWS are the new "advantaged" clubs - advantaged like the early WCE and Adelaide sides (who were essentially star studded state sides) they are brim full of talent and they are maturing into becoming gun teams. We had a gun team - we benefited from 2 priority picks, Geelong had a gun team - they benefited from F/S picks. Sydney have enjoyed sustained success partially on the back of the COLA advantage. Many other clubs had the gun players but were not gun teams. Development.

In my view it is Hawthorn who has bucked the trend, somewhat. Sure they got Franklin from a priority pick, and they have also benefited from F/S picks but they set out with a deliberate plan to build a premiership quality team (it's not as if no other team has done this but it was the ruthless end driven process at Hawthorn that I refer to here).

St Kilda stole the architect of that rebuild at Hawthorn and used him for our rebuild.

I think we have the best recruiters in the business ATM and I think we have managed to secure a great batch of kids with enormous potential.
I think we have the right coach to develop these talented kids into great players.
I think we have the right role-models in the retained senior players. These guys are essential in showing the kids how to deal with the commitment to the hard work, how to deal with the pressure of the public demands, on-field and off-field discipline, and other issues.

The culture issue is a big one - something Rob Harvey once said - he developed his manic commitment to fitness after witnessing Trev Barker doing so much extra work to achieve the results he did. Harves has had an effect on the current senior players and that effect will be passed down to the kids now learning the game. In a way it is Barker's legacy that still helps the club. Aaron Hamill is another. He was a great player who was cut down before his time. If you have met him, you'll find out he's not just a great player, he's a great person. The sort that would do anything for you. If there is anything positive to be said for Scott Watters it is he understood the need for our club to develop a better "culture". It is he who brought in club greats and re-integrated them into the club. This is all part of the package of making St Kilda a great club.

I don't think we were terribly lacking in our player development during the "Noughties" but we are not resting on our laurels, we are developing a player academy which is promising to be cutting edge. I would like to see players receive a diploma or some other credit for doing the work that they do there - and maybe the coursework could be used to give credit for some allied courses at universities and colledges. Exceptional work should be recognised by awarding "honours" on Trevor Barker Award night.

Do we have the right people in place? I don't know - I hope so. I think the club are very serious about making this work.

We will have a hard time of it in the next decade as when we approach our peak we will be up against the advantaged clubs, GWS and Gold Coast, but also our rebuild began in compromised drafts whereas the next clubs to realise they need to copy the St Kilda model and rebuild will be able to do so more quickly than us. We need to keep drafting quality like we have done recently, keep a balance of player ages and we need more resources to help us bring in and retain the best people.

 

[L_W_P]

I don't believe posters would deny that Luke Delaney has benefited from the development he received at North Melbourne and would give them due credit. Our club have only worked with him for one year. He has grown as a player in that time partly because of his maturity (he would have improved at any club given similar match time). At St Kilda Luke was given the respect of a needed player, the coaches gave him clear instructions on what was expected from him and in the space of one season he became an on field leader.

His speech at the BnF was one of the best. Very emotional was Luke and I think it came from finally feeling 'needed' at a club rather than being a handy depth player.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Bloody good post Kildonan.

 

[meto]

We stuffed up with Dunstan, all my jumping up and down did nothing of course, but having said that, this year is the one where we might expect to see some joy from the Lang pick.
Acres now 195cm is that right?....where do you play him now, that's a bit of a problem you mightn't have considered.

 

[Kilroy]

We stuffed up with Dunstan, all my jumping up and down did nothing of course, but having said that, this year is the one where we might expect to see some joy from the Lang pick.
Acres now 195cm is that right?....where do you play him now, that's a bit of a problem you mightn't have considered.

Can quite easily imagine a big step forward for both Lang and Acres this year, but Acres won't grow 4cms even in a decade.
We just need to give him lots of space, and time to find his stride.
The risk with him for us, and with Cockatoo for you, is whether the move to Melbourne works for them.
Anyone questioning Lang's talent or determination need only check out his old highlights packages. Flew under the radar cos of his injury but could well be a slow burner.
Dunstan is perfect for us - his composure on and off-field is gold. Love how he's embraced the Lenny legacy.

 

[Defacto]

Look, I couldn't give a stuff whether you believe so or not, that's your choice. But ablett was considered a 3rd round pick and by media reports in the 25 - 40+ range, with some papers even saying he was picked purely by his name.

Anyone saying he was a first rounder is pure fuffery and just wrong, and usually just a lie people like to use to exaggerate Geelong's F/S success. Whether there was a club who were going to take him in the second round.. who knows, i'm going on what information was publicly available.

I also had a mate in the Geelong Falcons who played alongside Gaz. His advice was that he was a good user but hardly ever got more than a dozen possies and was merely a dangerous small forward. Take from that what you will, this is your board, I'm leaving now.. but Gaz was never more than a 3rd round pick (or late second if you go by the abovementioned range) according to all publicly available information at the time.

that is not true at all. most of the phantom drafts and articles of the time stated he was likely a late first rounder/2nd round draft choice. theyre not hard to find. go search for them and i vividly remember the discussion had back then about him. he was somewhat shrouded in mystery though, as he did not like doing media interviews and deliberately shy'd away from the attention, wanting to carve out his own name

see the thing is under todays rule there is absolutely no way you part with a 3rd rounder. its first or 2nd rounder, which means missing bartel or stevie j

you just cant argue that

 

[Defacto]

We stuffed up with Dunstan, all my jumping up and down did nothing of course, but having said that, this year is the one where we might expect to see some joy from the Lang pick.
Acres now 195cm is that right?....where do you play him now, that's a bit of a problem you mightn't have considered.

hes not 195cm, i dont think. he'd be 191cm i think maybe 193cm at most

he's a goddard/fyfe type. could play center, could play wing, could play back, could play fwd. he's the perfect modern day footballer

 

[Defacto]

I think the Geelong reserves side is also a fantastic development tool that separates it from the Saints.

off-field they were managed much much much better, then the stadia arrangements helped that further

just seemed to appoint and attract the right people...whilst we were resourced well in the football dept for the senior list it came at the expense of other areas like recruitment and development. it also hit our pockets and meant we didnt hold that profit for darker times. all our energy was into the flag that should have come in 09/10, future wasnt even considered IMO

we all know how it ended up but hey thats just the position we were in

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Bookmarked.
Rivers is exactly the player I was referring to. 28 - he comes in fils the gap for 3 years between Scarlo retiring and Kolo or someone else standing up. Rivers retires: job's done. Long term Clarke and Stanley will help us for the aforementioned reason. And Caddy just turned 22 - he will help us long term indeed.

hes not 195cm, i dont think. he'd be 191cm i think maybe 193cm at most

he's a goddard/fyfe type. could play center, could play wing, could play back, could play fwd. he's the perfect modern day footballer

Saw him around 8 weeks ago at the shops, would be lucky to be anything more than 190cm.

 

[manboob]

He's 193.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Why do you care Manboob? I'll stick with the 190cm.

 

[Periphery]

He's 193.

Serious question: What makes you so sure?

 

[sonnywalters]

Rather than whinge about Geelong FS - we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. We only needed to get one of these four picks right and we win a flag in 2010. Just one FFS.

2005 Fergus Watts pick 17
2006 Brad Howard pick 27
2007 Ben McEvoy pick 9 (Dangerfield, Rioli, H Taylor still available)
2008 Tom Lynch pick 13

 

[Sir Skid]

Rather than whinge about Geelong FS - we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. We only needed to get one of these four picks right and we win a flag in 2010. Just one FFS.

2005 Fergus Watts pick 17
2006 Brad Howard pick 27
2007 Ben McEvoy pick 9 (Dangerfield, Rioli, H Taylor still available)
2008 Tom Lynch pick 13

And don't forget Lovett for pick 16
He alone would have gotten us over the line.

 

[Nutsngum]

Rather than whinge about Geelong FS - we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. We only needed to get one of these four picks right and we win a flag in 2010. Just one FFS.

2005 Fergus Watts pick 17
2006 Brad Howard pick 27
2007 Ben McEvoy pick 9 (Dangerfield, Rioli, H Taylor still available)
2008 Tom Lynch pick 13

It really cannot be stressed how much has changed since Ameet and Trout joined the club. Even Macca who I think is worth his pick looks terrible with the talent that went after him.

The people who are going to win this club a flag are those guys more then anyone I think.

 

[CursingFijian]

Was it Stan Alves who said a clubs two most important departments are recruiting and medical. Coaches come in third?

 

[kernelT]

Rather than whinge about Geelong FS - we need to have a good hard look at ourselves. We only needed to get one of these four picks right and we win a flag in 2010. Just one FFS.

2005 Fergus Watts pick 17
2006 Brad Howard pick 27
2007 Ben McEvoy pick 9 (Dangerfield, Rioli, H Taylor still available)
2008 Tom Lynch pick 13

Rather than complain about people whinging, you could always just stop reading and posting in this thread I guess.

Geelong had plenty draft failures over the that period too - Gardiner, Tenace, Haynes, Thurley, Prismall, Owen, Brown, Gillies but these barely matter when you have access to absolute elite talent with picks in the 40's.

Contrary to popular belief, all clubs get draft picks wrong, including Geelong.