Agreed. The saints dominated large parts of the 2009 GF and in fact won 3 of the 4 quarters.
If they had been able to put more of a score on the board it may have been good enough to get them the win.
Ross Lyon's Finals coaching Record
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Agreed. The saints dominated large parts of the 2009 GF and in fact won 3 of the 4 quarters.
If they had been able to put more of a score on the board it may have been good enough to get them the win.
Defacto
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Bang on. Freo were in control for less than a qtr and hawthorn had it wrapped up well before the end of the 4th
Err well i wouldnt say it was all Clarko, but Clarko wanted talls as a priority over mids...
Freos list is still very very good and more than disciplined enough to go top 4 again. All they need is some more fire power. (Bennel will help) losing mora has hurt heaps. Landing a kpf will do them wonders as their game plan is good enough they dont need the best defenders they just work really hard.
dickballsack
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Riiiight, so he wasn't coaching to win a GF? what exactly was he coaching his team to do then? FYI- that's a rhetorical question to one of the most moronic statements I've read here ...
rdhopkins2
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Personally I think the best form of defense is attack. I give WC and Richmond a greater chance of winning the 2016 flag. Just how I see if.
didaksrightfoot
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Or rather, anyone whos watched sport for long enough knows that dominant offensive teams do so off the basis of great defence.
Both the Hawthorn team you support and the dominant Geelong team were based entirely on that principle.
The teams that play great offensive games, but do so without a defensive foundation, are often the ones who struggle in finals or against the better teams.
Davo23
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Ross Lyon seems to coach like a manager of a lower level team in the English Premier League.
That sort of manager plans not to lose any games, they're not really looking at winning, just looking for a draw to get a point. If his team scores early, he's then closing down the game to hold on for a win. If he doesn't score early, he closes down the game anyway, and hopes for a late score to steal the match. The football is just ugly.
It's a philosophy created by Paul Roos, and perfected by Ross Lyon.
That sort of manager plans not to lose any games, they're not really looking at winning, just looking for a draw to get a point. If his team scores early, he's then closing down the game to hold on for a win. If he doesn't score early, he closes down the game anyway, and hopes for a late score to steal the match. The football is just ugly.
It's a philosophy created by Paul Roos, and perfected by Ross Lyon.
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For comparison I looked up Hardwick's finals coaching record with Richmond; rounds up to 0%.
rdhopkins2
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Our defense has been good but we have the right personnel in the forward line to convert opportunity provided by the mids. Once we start to provide scoreboard pressure, that's a mental pain for the oppositîion⌨.
Attack is the best form of defense but it takes a pretty good team to pull it off.
Teams need to play more positively.
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I think Ross Lyon is generally a good coach, and my analysis of his teams year by year is as follows:
ST KILDA
2007 - Non finalist
2008 - Geelong and Hawthorn were a class above the rest this year, and St Kilda only fell into 4th. The heavy thrashings inflicted by the Cats and the Hawks in the finals were not good, but understandable.
2009 - This Grand Final was the one that got away, and the Saints deserve heavy criticism for losing here. Leading all day against a Geelong team that played badly for 3 1/2 quarters, St Kilda could - should - have put the Cats out of the game in the second term, and even if they had failed to do this, in the final term with St Kilda dominating in heavy rain one Saints goal probably would have finished off Geelong. However, St Kilda could not do it and to the Cats' credit, they caught, overtook and ultimately defeated the Saints late in the game.
2010 - Collingwood were a vastly superior team to St Kilda, who were lucky to draw in the 2010 Grand Final when the Magpies played an inexplicably poor second half. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been far kinder for the Saints if the siren had gone with the Magpies holding a 1 point lead late in the match rather than the Saints managing to level scores, as the Magpies inflicted a heavy thrashing on the Saints in the replay, not only defeating them but demoralizing them too.
2011 - St Kilda's premiership chances were all but gone by now, and the Sydney Swans far too good in the elimination final.
FREMANTLE
2012 - Fremantle were magnificent in defeating reigning premier Geelong in an elimination final played in Melbourne, and were far from disgraced in losing to a superior Adelaide Crows team in a high quality semi final played in South Australia.
2013 - The Dockers deserve high praise for their defeats of Geelong (at Kardinia Park) and the comfortable defeat of reigning premier the Sydney Swans in Perth in the finals. The mighty Hawthorn, however, presented a far greater challenge in the Grand Final and were not going to lose to anyone that day. Fremantle never looked likely winners, and never at any stage were they in front in the Grand Final.
2014 - A straight sets finals exit was not exactly good for the 4th placed Dockers, but reigning premiers the Swans in Sydney were too strong, and there was nothing all season between Fremantle and 5th-placed Port Adelaide, which was fresh and had plenty of momentum from thrashing a totally inept Richmond in the elimination final in Adelaide.
2015 - Fremantle, despite finishing top, were already badly out of form entering the finals and the defeat of the Sydney Swans in one of the poorest standard finals for many years did nothing to erase these doubts. There were few surprises when Hawthorn comfortably accounted for Fremantle in the preliminary final, and used this momentum to thrash the Eagles in the Grand Final the next week.
ST KILDA
2007 - Non finalist
2008 - Geelong and Hawthorn were a class above the rest this year, and St Kilda only fell into 4th. The heavy thrashings inflicted by the Cats and the Hawks in the finals were not good, but understandable.
2009 - This Grand Final was the one that got away, and the Saints deserve heavy criticism for losing here. Leading all day against a Geelong team that played badly for 3 1/2 quarters, St Kilda could - should - have put the Cats out of the game in the second term, and even if they had failed to do this, in the final term with St Kilda dominating in heavy rain one Saints goal probably would have finished off Geelong. However, St Kilda could not do it and to the Cats' credit, they caught, overtook and ultimately defeated the Saints late in the game.
2010 - Collingwood were a vastly superior team to St Kilda, who were lucky to draw in the 2010 Grand Final when the Magpies played an inexplicably poor second half. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been far kinder for the Saints if the siren had gone with the Magpies holding a 1 point lead late in the match rather than the Saints managing to level scores, as the Magpies inflicted a heavy thrashing on the Saints in the replay, not only defeating them but demoralizing them too.
2011 - St Kilda's premiership chances were all but gone by now, and the Sydney Swans far too good in the elimination final.
FREMANTLE
2012 - Fremantle were magnificent in defeating reigning premier Geelong in an elimination final played in Melbourne, and were far from disgraced in losing to a superior Adelaide Crows team in a high quality semi final played in South Australia.
2013 - The Dockers deserve high praise for their defeats of Geelong (at Kardinia Park) and the comfortable defeat of reigning premier the Sydney Swans in Perth in the finals. The mighty Hawthorn, however, presented a far greater challenge in the Grand Final and were not going to lose to anyone that day. Fremantle never looked likely winners, and never at any stage were they in front in the Grand Final.
2014 - A straight sets finals exit was not exactly good for the 4th placed Dockers, but reigning premiers the Swans in Sydney were too strong, and there was nothing all season between Fremantle and 5th-placed Port Adelaide, which was fresh and had plenty of momentum from thrashing a totally inept Richmond in the elimination final in Adelaide.
2015 - Fremantle, despite finishing top, were already badly out of form entering the finals and the defeat of the Sydney Swans in one of the poorest standard finals for many years did nothing to erase these doubts. There were few surprises when Hawthorn comfortably accounted for Fremantle in the preliminary final, and used this momentum to thrash the Eagles in the Grand Final the next week.
Excellent analysis, would read again.
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We got all those picks cause we did have a crap list, you know cause we finished near the bottom.
Surely it's easier to pick up lists that have established stars, like Lyon at both his clubs.
that being said, I don't think Lyons record is as bad as the op made out. He's managed to manufacture some very good finals wins, like the cats at skilled, he destroyed Sydney in 2013, 2012 against the cats in Melbourne, numerous great results with the saints including the first of the 2010 grand final against a rampaging Collingwood side.
I think he's spoken of too highly at times, but his record stacks up well
Great analysis, but with these two finals series i wonder how much of the blame has to go on Lyon. In the 2013 GF, Freo scored only 1 goal in the first half, and iirc, didn't score a goal in the last quarter until Hawthorn were 30 odd points up and the game was over. While they did have some accuracy problems, their defence held Hawthorn quite well, and they simply couldn't put up a winning score.
In 2015, i question whether Freo were mismanaged. First you have Fyfe and his injuries. Freo were two games clear at the top of the ladder for half the season, and they ****ed around with their most important player's health. Sure, some of that was unlucky, but there were games that Fyfe played where he was obviously injured and shouldn't have been playing in an ultimately meaningless game. The same goes for Freo's form leading into the finals. Ross Lyon had the buffer that could see him do whatever it takes to have his team in form coming into finals. I don't think Freo were the best team this year, and probably wouldn't have won the flag anyway, but i think Lyon and the coaching/fitness staff cop some of the blame for their poor finals showing despite having three home finals.
Sttew
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Let me rephrase what I said so you might understand......it looked to me (and others judging by responses in this thread) that Lyon's strategy in the 09 GF was not one that was going to win. Kick 9 goals and hope the opposition kicks less
You know how Fyfe got his corked thigh, right?
This 'Lyon gameplan doesn't hold-up in finals' is just a media beat-up, and people love the narrative of it; defensive, unattractive coach can't win!
The reality is St Kilda and Fremantle have been perennially unsuccessful. Two clubs with histories of mediocrity and a general wallowing in league irrelevance. Ross has come in to both clubs and developed a game style capable of getting each side not only to the Grand Final, but to the point of being in the game in the fourth quarter. Does anyone believe St Kilda fielded a better team than Geelong in '09? That Fremantle have a better 22 than Hawthorn in '13 or '15? The only debatable one is Collingwood in 2010, but St Kilda fielded players like Robert Eddy, Brett Peake and Andrew McQualter.
The 'stage fright' suffered by Fremantle in 2013 and St Kilda in 2009 (and that's totally on the players, and the clubs as entities becoming overwhelmed by the rare chance at any success, see Richmond the last few years) cost any chance of claiming either of those flags, not the coach.
The reality is St Kilda and Fremantle have been perennially unsuccessful. Two clubs with histories of mediocrity and a general wallowing in league irrelevance. Ross has come in to both clubs and developed a game style capable of getting each side not only to the Grand Final, but to the point of being in the game in the fourth quarter. Does anyone believe St Kilda fielded a better team than Geelong in '09? That Fremantle have a better 22 than Hawthorn in '13 or '15? The only debatable one is Collingwood in 2010, but St Kilda fielded players like Robert Eddy, Brett Peake and Andrew McQualter.
The 'stage fright' suffered by Fremantle in 2013 and St Kilda in 2009 (and that's totally on the players, and the clubs as entities becoming overwhelmed by the rare chance at any success, see Richmond the last few years) cost any chance of claiming either of those flags, not the coach.
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Davo23
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Oh my mistake. I forgot how a corked thigh turned into playing the next two games, which turned into his thigh still hasn't healed, which turned into another leg injury, which turned into an injury in his other leg, which turned into your best player is playing in a prelim final with a broken leg.
The fact that you're trying to blame his injury issues on Mitchell just shows how much Fyfe was mismanaged.
The thing is though, how much can you separate the 'list issues' from Ross Lyon. While he obviously doesn't have absolute power over recruitment and drafting, a coach should be playing a fairly sizeable role, especially when it comes to decisions like whether to top up with mature players, or whether to try and get some talented draftees in because the list is not good enough to win a flag.
Why is it that Saint Kilda were unable to draft or recruit any players better than the likes of Eddy, Peake or McQualter? While McQualter was a reasonably early pick, Eddy was a rookie pick, and Peake was someone Saint Kilda targeted in a trade. Why couldn't Saint Kilda develop, or draft or trade anyone better than those three? I have no idea whether they were injured, or just not performing, but Jack Steven and David Armitage didn't play in any of Saint Kilda's GF's. Perhaps this was completely warranted, but considering how well those two play these days, you have to question whether the development and game time given to them was inadequate, and whether they could have made a difference in the result, rather than playing Eddy, or McQualter.
Again, not saying this is all Ross Lyon's fault, but he should have been playing a big role in these decisions, and questions should be asked.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just asked a question, which you sort of answered.
The fact he broke his leg isn't a management issue. It's just bad luck.
The point is that a fractured leg was just one injury Nat Fyfe had. The whole second half of his season, including finals, he was well below full fitness. For a team that was 2 games clear in first, playing him through soreness/injuries is just baffling.
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Garbage! Has had plenty of time at both clubs to build one
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