TAFE versus University

[Mattlowry]

I would just like to add people need to look at the quality of the students doing that course more.

Another reason i want to transfer is the quality of you're average commerce student at La Trobe. In most of my classes i just cannot fathom how some of these people managed to scrape the enter score to get into the course. Once these people graduate firms might hire them and will probably notice over time that unis such as Melbourne and Monash have provided better employees over time in comparison to say La Trobe.

There may be smarter students in there, but unfortunately firms impressions of them will be detrimentally affected by the lower quality students at that uni.

 

[bunsen burner]

i would like to agree with Bunsen here but in truth i don't.

Going to an elite university will get your foot in the door and i know that for a fact.

I believe this is the second time you have misinterpreted what I've said within a week.

I have always maintained that the uni you go to matters when applying for your first job etc. Just like you, I know this for a fact. My explicit argument is that further down the track, where you went to uni diminishes in importance as work record, interview skills, and psychometric testing take far superior precedence. Generally.

 

[nokiacasio]

Your looked down in the law community if you dont get a law degree from Melbourne. BS

How about these notable alumni from Monash
Mark Weinberg - Justice of the Federal Court of Australia
Ian Gray - Chief Magistrate, Magistrates' Court of Victoria
Peter Costello - Current Australian Treasurer
Honorable Chief Justice Marilyn Warren, AO Lieutenant-Governor of Victoria
Honourable Justice Christopher Jessup Federal Court
Honourable Justice Anthony Cavanough Supreme court of Victoria
Honour Judge Julian Leckie County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Jeanette Morrish County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Paul Grant President of the Children’s Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Susan Pullen County Court of Victoria
Magistrate Luisa Bazzani
Magistrate Marc Sargent
Magistrate Fiona Stewart

nuff said i reckon

That explains why no one likes Peter Costello. I can't believe I used to think it was his smirk.

 

[nokiacasio]

I mean if the enter to get into Melbourne for example is 99 and the enter for Deakin is 93 then its far more likely that the quality of students will be higher at Melbourne. Not so much an issue that they went to Melbourne but they are higher quality students.

For law you need 99 but on average I hear that the median ENTER for a Melbourne Uni student is 94.6, which means your average Melbourne Uni kid is in the top 6 percent of the country. Yet most of them look like hippies and nerds.

 

[Scotland]

Can you honestly not see how pathetic this statement is?

1. Why are you worried about other people? Shouldn't you focus on yourself?
2. Do you not think mature age students make sacrifices?
3. That's like saying if you don't get drafted in the draft you should never be allowed on an AFL list. Not everyone is ready at 16-17. Why should people be denied?

Clearly you're very young. If you were over 22 you would probaby understand how pathetic this line of thought is.

You misunderstand wanting to deny people a second chance and wanting people who make the most of their first to be rewarded somewhat.

Why should any high school student make sacrifices and work hard to get into university when TAFE bridging courses and diplomas are apparently all you need?

Since you are into AFL metaphors, mature age recruits don't get drafted for kicking 10 goals a week in suburban amateurs. I've got abo****ely no problem with anyone who goes back to school and does all that a year 12 student has to do to gain entry to university. Completing 1 or 2 high school subjects or a TAFE course is too soft.

It could be equally said that uni gets dumbed down by people who aren't naturally intelligent and only got in because they did all their homework and studied their arse off.

I wouldn't be surprised if you fit this category.

If it makes you sleep at night to think that of me, go ahead. Totally incorrect though.

What has this got to do with anything?

You are the one advocating getting into university through TAFE, not me. I am just suggesting that a solid background prior to attending university is important for a lot of cases, and I have my doubts that a TAFE course would provide this.

 

[bunsen burner]

You misunderstand wanting to deny people a second chance and wanting people who make the most of their first to be rewarded somewhat.

You think people are necessarily better who get good enough results to go straight to uni and that their degrees are worth more.

That is pathetic.

You begrudge people who mess around at school and then pull their heads in later.

That is also pathetic.

You claim that such peope dumb down university degrees.

You are pathetic.

Why should any high school student make sacrifices and work hard to get into university when TAFE bridging courses and diplomas are apparently all you need?

Err, because getting the grades first time round could save as much as 3 years. I did an IT degree and there were some students who did the TAFE route. They were given no credits. They had to do 3 years of TAFE then 3 years of uni. At best a TAFE student would have to do at least an extra year.

So don't give me this "no reward" nonsense.

Since you are into AFL metaphors, mature age recruits don't get drafted for kicking 10 goals a week in suburban amateurs. I've got abo****ely no problem with anyone who goes back to school and does all that a year 12 student has to do to gain entry to university.

That's a very childish and immature view. I feel sorry for you.

tip: You should spend more time worrying about yourelf.

Completing 1 or 2 high school subjects or a TAFE course is too soft.

If it makes you sleep at night to think that of me, go ahead. Totally incorrect though.

What makes you think I would lose sleep over your jucvenile stupidity?

You are the one advocating getting into university through TAFE, not me.

Their were people I went to uni with who did this and they were up to speed, ie they did 3 years TAFE just to get to starting line. Not sure why you have a problem with this?

I am just suggesting that a solid background prior to attending university is important for a lot of cases, and I have my doubts that a TAFE course would provide this.

What like year 12? 3 years TAFE >>>> year 12.

 

[tribey]

You think people are necessarily better who get good enough results to go straight to uni and that their degrees are worth more.

That is pathetic.

Agreed.

I know people with impressive TER/ENTER scores who've been nigh-on hopeless at uni.

It's one thing to be able to churn out work to a high Year 12 standard in that highly regimented and guided structure, it's quite another to be able to learn on your own and produce 3000-6000 word papers with complex analytical thought.

High school is terribly overrated and it starts with teachers drumming the bullshit line into students that if you don't knuckle down and achieve in their institution you'll never amount to anything. Absolute bollocks.

 

[Scotland]

You think people are necessarily better who get good enough results to go straight to uni and that their degrees are worth more.

That is pathetic.

You think the world is a happy, caring place, and everyone should be given as many chances as they want to 'find themselves'.

I think those who have a solid background and thorough understanding of the theory involved in many courses end up with degrees that are worth more. I am not yet convinced TAFE entrants have this. Maybe in IT they do, but I'm yet to see a TAFE 'engineer' with a deep understanding of the laws of thermodynamics.

You begrudge people who mess around at school and then pull their heads in later.

That is also pathetic.

Why have TEE, HSC, VCE etc. in the first place?

Why not encourage every student in Australia to do woodwork, cooking and outdoor ed in year 12? That'd make school much more enjoyable for all. Plus we'd have a generation of carpenters, chefs and rock climbers.

Want to be a Doctor? A 6 week bridging course that shows you how to use a stethoscope will get you in.

You claim that such peope dumb down university degrees.

You are pathetic.

Play the ball, not the man.

 

[Tigerdrive]

Err, because getting the grades first time round could save as much as 3 years. I did an IT degree and there were some students who did the TAFE route. They were given no credits. They had to do 3 years of TAFE then 3 years of uni. At best a TAFE student would have to do at least an extra year.

Yeh very true, I didnt get the marks i wanted in high school bascially because i didn't fully apply myself so Iv'e been doing a marketing course over the last two years at tafe and hopefully at the end of this year i'll get through to the uni.

And in no way has it been a "backdoor" to uni I reckon Iv'e had to work harder in the last year and a half then i did during VCE.

 

[Mattlowry]

For law you need 99 but on average I hear that the median ENTER for a Melbourne Uni student is 94.6, which means your average Melbourne Uni kid is in the top 6 percent of the country. Yet most of them look like hippies and nerds.

I was just using that as a hypothetical example. I was just saying that at any uni if the enter score is 99 somewhere and 90 somewhere else its probably likely that the students at the first one will be of a higher quality.

 

[bunsen burner]

You think the world is a happy, caring place, and everyone should be given as many chances as they want to 'find themselves'.

That is not how it is. A uni course should be available to people of all ages and entrance requirements should not just be limited to how a person performed at 16/17.

You fail to take into account that people mature at different ages, people have different interests at different points in their life, and some of these HSC students have environmental (bad home life) and psychological issues (they're teenagers FFS).

You really need to grow up and get some perspective.

I think those who have a solid background and thorough understanding of the theory involved in many courses end up with degrees that are worth more.

But you're saying a person who went through TAFE to do a degree or a mature age student isn't possibly capable of doing this.

You're making a complete arse-hat of yourself.

I am not yet convinced TAFE entrants have this. Maybe in IT they do, but I'm yet to see a TAFE 'engineer' with a deep understanding of the laws of thermodynamics.

You don't need a deep understanding to get into uni so I'm stumped as to what you're talking about?

Why have TEE, HSC, VCE etc. in the first place?

So we can qualify and prepare people for tertiary studies. Doesn't mean this has to be the only way someone can gain entry into university.

I don't think you're in a position to look down on any TAFE student's intelligence.

Why not encourage every student in Australia to do woodwork, cooking and outdoor ed in year 12? That'd make school much more enjoyable for all. Plus we'd have a generation of carpenters, chefs and rock climbers.

Want to be a Doctor? A 6 week bridging course that shows you how to use a stethoscope will get you in.

Here mate, here's some toilet paper to wipe your mouth because you're talking sh*t.

Play the ball, not the man.

You are being pathetic and you deserve to be told.

 

[stickman11]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

Most people around 17 blow it at uni. Really who cares - if you get in and do well, that is all that matters. People who have spent time in a work environment actually do better - they know how to set goals and organise their time.

 

[Scotland]

That is not how it is. A uni course should be available to people of all ages and entrance requirements should not just be limited to how a person performed at 16/17.

You fail to take into account that people mature at different ages, people have different interests at different points in their life, and some of these HSC students have environmental (bad home life) and psychological issues (they're teenagers FFS).

You really need to grow up and get some perspective.

Again you don't get it. I am not saying someone who fails at 17 deserves to be thrown on the scrapheap.

I am saying that if someone wants entrance to a university course they should be made to do at least the same as what is required in the TEE, HSC etc.

I am not convinced all TAFE courses and mature age student programs offer this. For example, I know of people who have failed high school chemistry, failed it a second time, then passed a TAFE chemistry bridging course to gain entry to a university course that requires an understanding of chemistry, only to drop out because they couldn't handle the chemistry requirements.

But you're saying a person who went through TAFE to do a degree or a mature age student isn't possibly capable of doing this.

You're making a complete arse-hat of yourself.

Actually, you are saying that.

You don't need a deep understanding to get into uni so I'm stumped as to what you're talking about?

Ever heard of pre-requisites?

I don't think you're in a position to look down on any TAFE student's intelligence.

Who is looking down on anyone's intelligence. You are just making inferences because it makes things simple for you and you think it makes you look clever. You can have an IQ of 160 but if you aren't prepared to do what's required you still don't deserve entry to university.

Here mate, here's some toilet paper to wipe your mouth because you're talking sh*t.

You are being pathetic and you deserve to be told.

Thanks for the heads up champ.

Given you are the one who is hell bent on turning a discussion into a personal slanging match, I'll reserve my judgement on who is pathetic.

 

[stickman11]

Ah but Scotland - the universities actually take a two year diploma from tafe as being equal to a first year uni degree. From those results, they are saying yes, you can study at this level. Seriously year 11 and 12 is full of soft subjects and today, you can buy your way into a course anyway so who cares.

 

[bunsen burner]

Again you don't get it. I am not saying someone who fails at 17 deserves to be thrown on the scrapheap.

Funny that, because you said this (post 47):

Sure, why work hard at school when you can stuff around and slide in a side door to uni later?

I am saying that if someone wants entrance to a university course they should be made to do at least the same as what is required in the TEE, HSC etc.

A TAFE course in the same vocation is worth more than the same person doing year 12.

If you had left school you should know this.

I am not convinced all TAFE courses and mature age student programs offer this.

You should go look up some stats because in my experience the success rate of mature age students is very high.

For example, I know of people who have failed high school chemistry, failed it a second time, then passed a TAFE chemistry bridging course to gain entry to a university course that requires an understanding of chemistry, only to drop out because they couldn't handle the chemistry requirements.

You're talking shyt again.

Actually, you are saying that.

Ever heard of pre-requisites?

Ahhh, I get it! You actually think HSC subjects teach students a deep understanding of university subjects?

And obviously you are under some impression that high school is a higher standard than TAFE? They're about the same champ.

Who is looking down on anyone's intelligence.

I thought that was clear:

You're looking down at people who use a TAFE diploma to enter uni and mature age students, and as a result I'm looking down at you for being ignorant enough to think you're any better. Oh, and I'm looking way down at your IQ too.

You can have an IQ of 160 but if you aren't prepared to do what's required you still don't deserve entry to university.

What are you suggesting? A time machine? Because you clearly don't believe people should get a second crack and "slide in a slide door to uni later" (post 47).

Oh, that's right, you're now claiming people can have a second chance but must do year 12? There's more than one way to skin a cat and the success rate of mature age students prove that.

Thanks for the heads up champ.

You don't have to slog it out on the books for the best education.

Given you are the one who is hell bent on turning a discussion into a personal slanging match, I'll reserve my judgement on who is pathetic.

tissue?

 

[Jabso]

So when the fundemental basis of CGT law is changed how would you cope without understanding the theoretical basis? How can you question and evaluate something if you don't understand the manner in which it was formed. Learning is not just about learning how to do something, but also about how to question and analyse as well!

Yeah well that is the difference between TAFE and Uni like I was saying. Some people will like TAFE better because it's straight to the point and more practical others will like Uni better because it's more holistic.

As far as making yourself more qualified and prepared for higher paying jobs TAFE can't compete.

 

[Jabso]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

The TAFE course I went to actually had a relatively high ENTER qualification (most don't have any!). I had a high enough ENTER to do a lot of Uni Courses (my enter was a bit over 70) but I didn't really want to do these uni courses.

As I said it was TAFE through RMIT, so if you perform well in the TAFE course you are ready for the demands of Uni, especially if you go from TAFE to Uni within the same institution where the courses actually are similar and you even share some lecturers.

It's not as simple as a "side door" into uni, alot of institutions don't do it. If there is too much competition for uni places for a course then your chances of getting in are slim, but in my course demand is pretty low.

How is a student coming out of VCE/HSC, who may or may not even want to do the course or it may turn out they don't like it, more worthy of a spot to a person who was prepared to go through TAFE, has knowledge of what is actually required in the particular field, actually wants to get into this course AND who excelled in TAFE?

And again VCE/HSC whatever it is called nowadays is terribly flawed. Not just the curriculum itself but the path to uni. When I was in VCE, to get into law it was actually best NOT to do legal studies as it doesn't give you many "bonus points". I didn't work my ass off enough in high school, I was an above average student but I just got way too complacent, especially when it came to exams. Anyway back to my point, say I want to get into something like a commerce course with a view of going into accounting the Enter of the course I want to get into is 95. Say I do everything right in school, select the right subjects but I don't even do an accounting subject because I wanted to boost my enter score by doing the 'bonus points' courses like maths methods.

How the flying **** is this 18 year old fresh out of school, with very minimal knowledge of the industry and skills required, more worthy of a spot compared to a person who performed well at an accounting course in TAFE (which in my case had much more hours than uni) for 2 years, a person who was more than demonstrated they have the ability and the knowledge of succeeding in the particular industry.

Another factor is the fact that the high school student, who may not be naturally smart but worked his/her ass off may go onto uni and look at the low hours and after sacrificing so much at school they will get complacent and bomb out in uni. Students fresh out of school are a lucky dip compared to people with Diplomas/Advanced Diplomas in the particular area the course deals in.

There are too many factors you are flat out ignoring.

 

[Scotland]

You're talking shyt again.

That pretty much sums up your position. My experiences have shown me that TAFE courses can be a soft option for getting into some university courses and don't provide a deep enough knowledge base. Yours have shown you otherwise. The conclusion you draw is that you are right and I am wrong. Great logic, don't take up debating any time soon. I'm not going to respond to any of your petty insults and he said/she said bullshit.

Jabso, good post. Having never studied in Victoria I don't know what 'bonus points' subjects are, but it sounds like you have followed a pretty sound path through your accounting studies. The fact that there is a course relationship between RMIT and TAFE can only be a good thing.

I am still not convinced that TAFE is enough for some university courses, particularly in the maths and sciences areas, but that is my position and I'll stick to it.

 

[carntheroos4eva]

TAFE is cheaper than what Uni is. However it depends upon what you guys want to do.
At TAFE you can't go and do a teaching degree for instance. I know that some people probably want to go down that path. You have to go to uni to do that.

 

[carntheroos4eva]

The TAFE course I went to actually had a relatively high ENTER qualification (most don't have any!). I had a high enough ENTER to do a lot of Uni Courses (my enter was a bit over 70) but I didn't really want to do these uni courses.

As I said it was TAFE through RMIT, so if you perform well in the TAFE course you are ready for the demands of Uni, especially if you go from TAFE to Uni within the same institution where the courses actually are similar and you even share some lecturers.

It's not as simple as a "side door" into uni, alot of institutions don't do it. If there is too much competition for uni places for a course then your chances of getting in are slim, but in my course demand is pretty low.

How is a student coming out of VCE/HSC, who may or may not even want to do the course or it may turn out they don't like it, more worthy of a spot to a person who was prepared to go through TAFE, has knowledge of what is actually required in the particular field, actually wants to get into this course AND who excelled in TAFE?

And again VCE/HSC whatever it is called nowadays is terribly flawed. Not just the curriculum itself but the path to uni. When I was in VCE, to get into law it was actually best NOT to do legal studies as it doesn't give you many "bonus points". I didn't work my ass off enough in high school, I was an above average student but I just got way too complacent, especially when it came to exams. Anyway back to my point, say I want to get into something like a commerce course with a view of going into accounting the Enter of the course I want to get into is 95. Say I do everything right in school, select the right subjects but I don't even do an accounting subject because I wanted to boost my enter score by doing the 'bonus points' courses like maths methods.

How the flying **** is this 18 year old fresh out of school, with very minimal knowledge of the industry and skills required, more worthy of a spot compared to a person who performed well at an accounting course in TAFE (which in my case had much more hours than uni) for 2 years, a person who was more than demonstrated they have the ability and the knowledge of succeeding in the particular industry.

Another factor is the fact that the high school student, who may not be naturally smart but worked his/her ass off may go onto uni and look at the low hours and after sacrificing so much at school they will get complacent and bomb out in uni. Students fresh out of school are a lucky dip compared to people with Diplomas/Advanced Diplomas in the particular area the course deals in.

There are too many factors you are flat out ignoring.

Good on you for getting into the course that you wanted to do. However, try not to lose your cool.

 

[Jabso]

I didn't lose my cool.

I agree that TAFE is obviously not as good as Uni.

I just think it is ignorant to call the TAFE to Uni pathway as a side door for people who don't deserve it. And that it's wrong to say they are less deserving than a student who has finished year 12 who from an institution standpoint is more of a risk than a TAFE student who has good knowledge on the subject and is showing more desire than a year 12 student who may not know what the course encompasses.

As far as VCE goes it is out of line. Law courses have high enters, but legal studies subjects are dumbed down and are easy, so it is better to go do something like chemistry or even a different language course which the system places higher weightings on.

 

[bunsen burner]

but that is my position and I'll stick to it.

I don't blame you for not putting your hand up and admitting you're not only wrong but have acted like a complete arsehat, but I do hope that in private you accept that you had it wrong. Afterall, to think that only people who study hard in highschool deserve to go to uni is complete arse-hattery.

 

[nokiacasio]

Afterall, to think that only people who study hard in highschool deserve to go to uni is complete arse-hattery.

The concept of whether someone is deserving or not is personal and depends on the person. Personally, if I were an employer and I learned that some kid just lazed off in high school and then did some easy subjects in TAFE to get into uni through the back door, I would not look favourably on it. But if the kid was just a kid and stuffed up because he had a bad family and a divorce and all that then I would give him a second chance, and it's a good thing the TAFEs are there to give him the second chance.

And also, you can study year 12 at TAFE, so anyone who didn't do well in VCE can just do VCE in TAFE again.

I don't know what 'bonus points' subjects are...

In VCE subjects are scaled, so e.g. in specialist maths if you get a certain score it is scaled up to reflect higher competition. All LOTEs (language other than English) are scaled and then 5 bonus points are added to your ENTER aggregate. So doing subjects like Latin, Chinese, specialist maths, and physics, often helps you get a higher ENTER. Most Melbourne law students didn't study humanities subjects in VCE. Once you get into uni, though, scaling is nonexistent, so I suppose you can just do anything you like.

 

[Barts]

I didn't lose my cool.

I agree that TAFE is obviously not as good as Uni.

I just think it is ignorant to call the TAFE to Uni pathway as a side door for people who don't deserve it. And that it's wrong to say they are less deserving than a student who has finished year 12 who from an institution standpoint is more of a risk than a TAFE student who has good knowledge on the subject and is showing more desire than a year 12 student who may not know what the course encompasses.

As far as VCE goes it is out of line. Law courses have high enters, but legal studies subjects are dumbed down and are easy, so it is better to go do something like chemistry or even a different language course which the system places higher weightings on.

Just touching on this argument..

Sometimes TAFE can be a saviour. In my case due to illness I missed half of year 11, or a whole semester. As I am studying to be an accountant this killed me as I missed vital work on how to learn ledgers, re-conciliation statements and many other things. I decided to go to TAFE to learn these things and it has helped me immensely. In terms of learning it all comes down to the quality of your teacher. Two of my teachers (Accounting and Tax) have moved on to higher education and this obviously shows they know what they are doing.
I'm doing an ad. diploma this year and we do a Virtual Business which is very much hands on and gives you an automatic head start over someone else to a potential future job in the business your investigating.

I intend to do the degree next year with my credits shortening my course by 1.5 years which is a bonus.

Overall, it comes down to the course you want to do ultimately. If you arnt quite sure what to do then I would do a TAFE course in the field you think your interested in until you know for sure what you want to do. It is a far cheaper option and you get some qualifications which may come in handy in the future.

Businesses hire people on there personality a lot too. A degree with top marks will not get you the big money spinning job if your a total spud when it comes to communicating with others and cant make vital business decisions on your own. So its important to be a well rounded person!