No Oppo Supporters The ASADA Thread... from a Tiger perspective

[SunshineBoy]

It matters because if the appeal is upheld, you will be stripping 17 players out of the efc team for two years. The consequences for the draw, the draft, the salary cap, the TV rights is huge

Im not sure how to read this, I hope youre not advocating that they have suffered enough? Because it may affect the draw , the draft etc.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

It matters because if the appeal is upheld, you will be stripping 17 players out of the efc team for two years. The consequences for the draw, the draft, the salary cap, the TV rights is huge

So essendon being on the bottom for a while is going to effect this, how.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Im not sure how to read this, I hope youre not advocating that they have suffered enough? Because t affects the draw , the draft etc.

No

1) I think they (the players) have suffered to much if the appeal is rejected, and CAS endorse the original decision

2) I think if they are found guilty, they will rightly face a suspension deemed appropriate

3) if a suspension occurs, it is a big deal for us all because the consequences are ones that will effect us all.

 

[SunshineBoy]

No

1) I think they (the players) have suffered to much if the appeal is rejected, and CAS endorse the original decision

2) I think if they are found guilty, they will rightly face a suspension deemed appropriate

3) if a suspension occurs, it is a big deal for us all because the consequences are ones that will effect us all.

Yes its a big deal, but do we want a clean comp or WWE, the competition is already compromised enough with the draw, Coca COLa, pepsi etc without adding steroids and growth hormones to the mix

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So essendon being on the bottom for a while is going to effect this, how.

Need to think bigger

What if efc cannot field a side, or there is the risk they will run out of players (if the top up arrangements are inadequate)

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Yes its a big deal, but do we want a clean comp or WWE, the competition is already compromised enough with the draw, Coca COLa, pepsi etc without adding steroids and growth hormones to the mix

Did I or have I ever said ped use should go unpunished?

I have never endorsed that

Remember I'm the guy who wants full investigations of all 18 clubs to root it all out

 

[wegetpumped]

It matters because if the appeal is upheld, you will be stripping 17 players out of the efc team for two years. The consequences for the draw, the draft, the salary cap, the TV rights is huge

So we should let them get away with it like the afl tried to do? All i'm saying is people are getting sick of all this bs. They should get it over and done the worry about the consequences. It's not like they will be with one less team is it.

 

[wegetpumped]

No

1) I think they (the players) have suffered to much if the appeal is rejected, and CAS endorse the original decision

2) I think if they are found guilty, they will rightly face a suspension deemed appropriate

3) if a suspension occurs, it is a big deal for us all because the consequences are ones that will effect us all.

It won't effect me cause my team is clean. And b dust about the players as they is hundreds running around in the vfl and other leagues. If it takes them ten years to build a decent team then so be it as the supporters will still support them.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Need to think bigger

What if efc cannot field a side, or there is the risk they will run out of players (if the top up arrangements are inadequate)

Stop drinking the kool-aid 74, they will not run out of players, they have a vfl side to filter players in from if bans happen mid season ( 14-15 at most ), they will field a side no matter how bad it is.

 

[tigerdan]

Need to think bigger

What if efc cannot field a side, or there is the risk they will run out of players (if the top up arrangements are inadequate)

It's the same problem if we have a plane crash and a team is wiped out ala Man U back in the day. We deal with it as best we can. I'm sure the league has contingencies for this scenario. A bit like the Mick Fanning Shark Attack. It wasn't really forseen but there were rules in place and at the end of the day the competition continues at the next event.

Hell, if there was another Windy Hill riot you'd see pretty much every player rubbed out for the following week. It's not likely these days, but still possible, especially in a grand final when next week is not on the players' minds. I don't see why we should wring our hands about such a scenario, even if we did have to live with ad-hoc players getting drafted to top them up, or alternatively make them forfeit. Getting suspended for thumping someone is just the same as getting suspended for cheating, inadvertent (as the apologists would have us believe) or not.

And as for the players 'having suffered enough', that's bullshit. The rules are there and that includes the right of appeal by the parties involved. If the players and club feel hard done by, it's a bit late for that when they signed up to the rules. And one of those rules allows WADA to appeal. I couldn't care less about their suffering.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So we should let them get away with it like the afl tried to do? All i'm saying is people are getting sick of all this bs. They should get it over and done the worry about the consequences. It's not like they will be with one less team is it.

Read what I wrote

I said there will be consequences, I've not said any guilty party should get a pass because it's tough

 

[SunshineBoy]

Need to think bigger

What if efc cannot field a side, or there is the risk they will run out of players (if the top up arrangements are inadequate)

The OFFAL has a contingency plan for this , Gilligan keeps saying this, play the doutta galla all stars in place of them if we have to.

The competition will go on regardless, didn't affect the Serie A when Juventus got done, and after a period of time they have returned to their position, you know my position burn the club to the ground and salt their training base for the way they have hijacked OUR game.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It won't effect me cause my team is clean. And b dust about the players as they is hundreds running around in the vfl and other leagues. If it takes them ten years to build a decent team then so be it as the supporters will still support them.

1) you are kidding yourself if you think our guys are 100% clean. Our sport hasn't been clean since the 70's

2) it will come down to the terms and number of top ups allowed

During the preseason, only a restricted number were allowed, on short term contracts, and second tier clubs were furious even at that. It will not be a free pass for them to take whomever they want

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The OFFAL has a contingency plan for this , Gilligan keeps saying this, play the doutta galla all stars in place of them if we have to.

The competition will go on regardless, didn't affect the Serie A when Juventus got done, and after a period of time they have returned to their position, you know my position burn the club to the ground and salt their training base for the way they have hijacked OUR game.

Of course the game will go on, it will just hurt. And again that's not a reason to stop a sanction if one is issued

As I just posted, gill's contingency plan for the preseason was cobbled together at the last minute, I expect nothing has changed since then

 

[SunshineBoy]

Read what I wrote

I said there will be consequences, I've not said any guilty party should get a pass because it's tough

Whilst you have not said it, some people get labelled on here, Im a troll, youre a sympathiser, its all good

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Stop drinking the kool-aid 74, they will not run out of players, they have a vfl side to filter players in from if bans happen mid season ( 14-15 at most ), they will field a side no matter how bad it is.

Ffs read what I'm writing and stop making assumptions

I am NOT saying any sanction should be stopped if the appeal is sustained, in fact I've said the bloody opposite.

What I've said is a sanction will effect more than efc which is why this is a major issue

And again, as I posted before, there is no unlimited access to secondary leagues, and they will be far from helpful after last time

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Whilst you have not said it, some people get labelled on here, Im a troll, youre a sympathiser, its all good

No it's not ******* all good, and any a-hole who puts false words in my mouth will ******* hear about it

I'm sick of people lying about my words and past statements to get a cheap comment

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It's the same problem if we have a plane crash and a team is wiped out ala Man U back in the day. We deal with it as best we can. I'm sure the league has contingencies for this scenario. A bit like the Mick Fanning Shark Attack. It wasn't really forseen but there were rules in place and at the end of the day the competition continues at the next event.

Hell, if there was another Windy Hill riot you'd see pretty much every player rubbed out for the following week. It's not likely these days, but still possible, especially in a grand final when next week is not on the players' minds. I don't see why we should wring our hands about such a scenario, even if we did have to live with ad-hoc players getting drafted to top them up, or alternatively make them forfeit. Getting suspended for thumping someone is just the same as getting suspended for cheating, inadvertent (as the apologists would have us believe) or not.

And as for the players 'having suffered enough', that's bullshit. The rules are there and that includes the right of appeal by the parties involved. If the players and club feel hard done by, it's a bit late for that when they signed up to the rules. And one of those rules allows WADA to appeal. I couldn't care less about their suffering.

Seriously, read what I ******* said

Firstly I said the players have suffered enough if the appeal of rejected, which means there is no guilty verdict against them. Or are you suggesting we should start promoting the suffering of players outside of guilty verdicts just on the vibe? If so, that's ******* ridiculous and goes against every element supporting impartial and natural justice that there is

Secondly again, I am not saying a sanction should be avoided or minimised because it will hurt. I'm saying it will have consequences beyond efc. How hard is that to understand?

 

[SunshineBoy]

Ffs read what I'm writing and stop making assumptions

I am NOT saying any sanction should be stopped if the appeal is sustained, in fact I've said the bloody opposite.

What I've said is a sanction will effect more than efc which is why this is a major issue

And again, as I posted before, there is no unlimited access to secondary leagues, and they will be far from helpful after last time

And let them get off scott free has affected everyone else, tell me who has more currency Trent Cotchin premiership captain, or Trent Cotchin , premiership captain and brownlow winner.

Hypothetically, Essendon cheat win a flag, get done for doping, who has suffered?

The runners up - tick
The teams finishing third and fourth - tick
The teams finishing ninth - tick
the other 780 players in the AFLPA - tick

Yes it will affect us all but it has already, raze the club to the ground

And timmy hand back charlie

 

[Ned_Flanders]

And let them get off scott free has affected everyone else, tell me who has more currency Trent Cotchin premiership captain, or Trent Cotchin , premiership captain and brownlow winner.

Hypothetically, Essendon cheat win a flag, get done for doping, who has suffered?

The runners up - tick
The teams finishing third and fourth - tick
The teams finishing ninth - tick
the other 780 players in the AFLPA - tick

Yes it will affect us all but it has already, raze the club to the ground

And timmy hand back charlie

They have not gotten off Scott free, because as of today no tribunal has found them guilty

If CAS rejects the appeal, how much more do you need to accept the case against the players is obviously not sufficient to warrant sanction?

If they are guilty, punish them, but you cannot punish people without a guilty verdict

 

[SunshineBoy]

They have not gotten off Scott free, because as of today no tribunal has found them guilty

If CAS rejects the appeal, how much more do you need to accept the case against the players is obviously not sufficient to warrant sanction?

If they are guilty, punish them, but you cannot punish people without a guilty verdict

If CAS rejects the appeal then all well and good, BUT a reasonable person given whats in the public domain, not that sham of an AFL judiciary would have found them guilty given the way the WADA code is written, no documentation is a breach of both the WADA and the AFL anti doping code, Why did the AFL not adhere to its own code? do I need to go on.

This whole thing has been poorly handled by the AFL, they wrongly believed they could control the outcome,

The chickens are coming home to roost and the cows are going to be milked.

And I know yore a reasonable person, forgetting the other clubs and your insistence that they may be dirty too, did Essendon and its players breach the code, its a simple yes or no.

And my belief is that they have multiple breaches and should be punished accordingly.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If CAS rejects the appeal then all well and good, BUT a reasonable person given whats in the public domain, not that sham of an AFL judiciary would have found them guilty given the way the WADA code is written, no documentation is a breach of both the WADA and the AFL anti doping code, Why did the AFL not adhere to its own code? do I need to go on.

This whole thing has been poorly handled by the AFL, they wrongly believed they could control the outcome,

The chickens are coming home to roost and the cows are going to be milked.

And I know yore a reasonable person, forgetting the other clubs and your insistence that they may be dirty too, did Essendon and its players breach the code, its a simple yes or no.

And my belief is that they have multiple breaches and should be punished accordingly.

1) don't disagree at all on the afl. I said from the start there shouldn't have been a joint investigation, and that the btgid charge should have been done after the ASADA case, and the interim report was a corruption of due process.

2) did they breech the code? I don't know. Their practices were disgusting, dangerous, and ethically just wrong, BUT did the players take a prohibited substance? For aod, ASADA cocked that up so you move on. For tb4, we haven't been shown the ASADA case of how that got from alavi to efc yet (because ASADA failed to establish the china to alavi link, so it was never tested)

I am a big believe in due process, that's always been my driver on this issue

 

[Tiger Toffee]

1) don't disagree at all on the afl. I said from the start there shouldn't have been a joint investigation, and that the btgid charge should have been done after the ASADA case, and the interim report was a corruption of due process.

2) did they breech the code? I don't know. Their practices were disgusting, dangerous, and ethically just wrong, BUT did the players take a prohibited substance? For aod, ASADA cocked that up so you move on. For tb4, we haven't been shown the ASADA case of how that got from alavi to efc yet (because ASADA failed to establish the china to alavi link, so it was never tested)

I am a big believe in due process, that's always been my driver on this issue

How so, i believe ASADA did establish all the links in the chain but it was the AFL tribunal that chose not to believe that TB4 left China despite GL Biochem saying that it did and that TB4 was supplied.
Forget about what the AFL Tribunal said and wrote, they were under instruction to deliver a result that was in the best interests for the AFL.
If ASADA had failed to establish a link from China to Alavi then WADA IMO would not have appealed, WADA would've read ASADA's findings a million times, they would have read the AFL Tribunal's findings a million times, if there was any ounce of doubt WADA would not have appealed.
Also remember that one of the biggest drug cheats in the history of cycling would have been cleared if his case was heard in front of the AFL tribunal.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

How so, i believe ASADA did establish all the links in the chain but it was the AFL tribunal that chose not to believe that TB4 left China despite GL Biochem saying that it did and that TB4 was supplied.
Forget about what the AFL Tribunal said and wrote, they were under instruction to deliver a result that was in the best interests for the AFL.
If ASADA had failed to establish a link from China to Alavi then WADA IMO would not have appealed, WADA would've read ASADA's findings a million times, they would have read the AFL Tribunal's findings a million times, if there was any ounce of doubt WADA would not have appealed.
Also remember that one of the biggest drug cheats in the history of cycling would have been cleared if his case was heard in front of the AFL tribunal.

You cannot use altered test reports to validate product, that's compliance 101

 

[Tiger Toffee]

You cannot use altered test reports to validate product, that's compliance 101

So please tell me, if ASADA used altered test reports, why have WADA appealed ?