Why do people reject science? Researchers shed new light on the topic.

[sataris]

You are talking to a bloke who believes the earth is most likely to be flat (60% chance). Why do you bother to argue with such people, i stopped long time ago. Just go to the flat earth thread and look at his attempt to name a few "brilliant" flat earth "scientists". Facepalm worthy.

Nobody has believed the earth was flat for at least 2000 years, there was a greek guy who estimated the circumference around 4BC

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

I'm curious to see how this myth has revived itself.

 

[grumbleguts]

Nobody has believed the earth was flat for at least 2000 years, there was a greek guy who estimated the circumference around 4BC

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

I'm curious to see how this myth has revived itself.

because people took the bible literally, when it says "and every eye shall see" The only way every eye can see something occur at the same time is if the Earth is flat.

Then you end up with the immense irony stemming from "Flat Earth Society members are all around the globe"

 

[cannot]

Nobody has believed the earth was flat for at least 2000 years, there was a greek guy who estimated the circumference around 4BC

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

I'm curious to see how this myth has revived itself.

and ... did everyone (african, asia, america...), for the next 1900 years know of eratisthenian measurement theories?

was the average European peasant in the dark ages aware of such ancient greek stick measurements?

if you grew up in Romania or Scotland in 637 you would have an excellent knowledge of Eratosthenes and his summaries? doubtful

 

[Frank Bunn]

Great post, just thought I'd add a little something on the nature of proofs. Some proofs are self evident and we can use them to prove other things.

eg. Pythagoras' theorem. Now I could utterly disprove pythagoras' theorem if I could find one right-angled triangle in which the square of its hypotenuse does not equal the sum of the squares of the other two sides. However I would according to the swan analogy have to investigate all the infinite possible RAT's to prove it.

However there is another way.

consider the following square.

View attachment 335894

The area of the outer square is (a+b)^2 This is self evident
If I expand that I get a^2 + 2ab + b^2 This is self evident
The area of the small square is c^2 This is self evident.

The area of each triangle is 0.5ab This is self evident
The area of the four triangles combined is 2ab.

Take away the four triangles from the big square you get the small square.
a^2 + 2ab + b^2 - 2ab = a^2 + b^2

OR a^2 + b^2 = c^2

This can be proven without the need for a lack of a counter example.

Pythagoras' theorem is only true in a flat universe bahahaha

 

[grumbleguts]

Pythagoras' theorem is only true in a flat universe bahahaha

Pythagoras' theorem is only true for triangles with right angles in them. Make of that what you will.

 

[sataris]

and ... did everyone (african, asia, america...), for the next 1900 years know of eratisthenian measurement theories?

was the average European peasant in the dark ages aware of such ancient greek stick measurements?

if you grew up in Romania or Scotland in 637 you would have an excellent knowledge of Eratosthenes and his summaries? doubtful

There are no writings from any of those periods and/or areas indicating that they believed the earth was flat.

So whether they were aware of who or how it was measured. Probably not.

Did they think the earth was flat? doubtful

 

[Long Live HFC]

and if they ever got to the beach they could see the curvature of the earth all by themselves

not to mention noticing the shape of the moon and sun.

 

[cannot]

There are no writings from any of those periods and/or areas indicating that they believed the earth was flat.

So whether they were aware of who or how it was measured. Probably not.

Did they think the earth was flat? doubtful

respectfully, do you know Gutenberg was born in 1398 ?

many ancient cultures thought the world was flat

i see no reason as to why the people of the dark and middle ages would have solid understanding of an ancient greeks thoughts. specially in regard to the measurement and science behind measuring the 'globe'

let alone china or other non European places

there should be a history/science sub ...

there is a lack of written or evidence for much of human history. this simply means there is a lack of evidence, not that things did not take place or exist. sort of like how the Brontosaurus existenced before we found the first fossils and worked it out

i dont doubt you could be correct. yet i am unsure how wide spread specifically was the old greek in questions thoughts were over the course of human history

i am curious as to if they (your run of the mill), monty python style, european 'serf' in the dark ages) - indeed think it was a globe, why and how did they? Cause it looked and felt flat and still - and the church's teaching were influential in that time period

 

[Long Live HFC]

respectfully, do you know Gutenberg was born in 1398 ?

many ancient cultures thought the world was flat

i see no reason as to why the people of the dark and middle ages would have solid understanding of an ancient greeks thoughts. specially in regard to the measurement and science behind measuring the 'globe'

let alone china or other non European places

there should be a history/science sub ...

there is a lack of written or evidence for much of human history. this simply means there is a lack of evidence, not that things did not take place or exist. sort of like how the Brontosaurus existenced before we found the first fossils and worked it out

i dont doubt you could be correct. yet i am unsure how wide spread specifically was the old greek in questions thoughts were over the course of human history

i am curious as to if they (your run of the mill), monty python style, european 'serf' in the dark ages) - indeed think it was a globe, why and how did they? Cause it looked and felt flat and still - and the church's teaching were influential in that time period

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

 

[sataris]

respectfully, do you know Gutenberg was born in 1398 ?

many ancient cultures thought the world was flat

i see no reason as to why the people of the dark and middle ages would have solid understanding of an ancient greeks thoughts. specially in regard to the measurement and science behind measuring the 'globe'

let alone china or other non European places

there should be a history/science sub ...

there is a lack of written or evidence for much of human history. this simply means there is a lack of evidence, not that things did not take place or exist. sort of like how the Brontosaurus existenced before we found the first fossils and worked it out

i dont doubt you could be correct. yet i am unsure how wide spread specifically was the old greek in questions thoughts were over the course of human history

i am curious as to if they (your run of the mill), monty python style, european 'serf' in the dark ages) - indeed think it was a globe, why and how did they? Cause it looked and felt flat and still - and the church's teaching were influential in that time period

Yes i know when gutenberg was born. Im going to assume youre trying to make the claim that knowledge needed the introduction of printing to spread?

Because it didnt.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Frank Bunn]

Pythagoras' theorem is only true for triangles with right angles in them. Make of that what you will.

If you drew a giant triangle on the earth's surface and the angles didn't add up to 180 would that prove the earth wasn't flat?

 

[grumbleguts]

If you drew a giant triangle on the earth's surface and the angles didn't add up to 180 would that prove the earth wasn't flat?

It wouldn't be a triangle. Hence my post.

 

[Frank Bunn]

It wouldn't be a triangle. Hence my post.

It would. Just not one conforming to Euclidean geometry. Hence my post.

 

[grumbleguts]

It would. Just not one conforming to Euclidean geometry. Hence my post.

OK it wouldn't be a trigon, anything is a triangle as long at it has 3 points in it.

 

[Total Power]

Rejection of science like Big Bang is different than arguing a FE model. The first is already under dispute, the latter is proven beyond doubt. I have worked in merchant navy as a young bloke, i know the shipping routes well. If anyone can point me to the edge of the earth, where people are protecting the edges for 1000's of years i will be happy.

 

[sataris]

Rejection of science like Big Bang is different than arguing a FE model. The first is already under dispute, the latter is proven beyond doubt. I have worked in merchant navy as a young bloke, i know the shipping routes well. If anyone can point me to the edge of the earth, where people are protecting the edges for 1000's of years i will be happy.

I would like to sail on the edge

 

[Boston tiger]

respectfully, do you know Gutenberg was born in 1398 ?

many ancient cultures thought the world was flat

i see no reason as to why the people of the dark and middle ages would have solid understanding of an ancient greeks thoughts. specially in regard to the measurement and science behind measuring the 'globe'

let alone china or other non European places

there should be a history/science sub ...

there is a lack of written or evidence for much of human history. this simply means there is a lack of evidence, not that things did not take place or exist. sort of like how the Brontosaurus existenced before we found the first fossils and worked it out

i dont doubt you could be correct. yet i am unsure how wide spread specifically was the old greek in questions thoughts were over the course of human history

i am curious as to if they (your run of the mill), monty python style, european 'serf' in the dark ages) - indeed think it was a globe, why and how did they? Cause it looked and felt flat and still - and the church's teaching were influential in that time period

Church never taught it. I would say the fallacy of the flat earth thinking in medieval or even earlier Christian times is one of the bigger fallacies going round.
An out of context quote attributed to Magellan and the romantic nature that Columbus was warned not to set sail because he would fall off the face of the earth etc.
Flat earth theory was around but was a minority.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[cannot]

I would like to sail on the edge

you cannot due to the 'ice wall'

 

[cannot]

“I’m not a philosopher… however, I am rather… dazzled… by the fact that many of the basic mysteries that we find in string theory and the theory of everything, seem to be mirrored in the Zohar and in the Kabbalah” (Michio Kaku, Professor of Theoretical Physics at the City College of New York. Author of three New York Times Best Sellers: Physics of the Impossible (2008), Physics of the Future (2011), and The Future of the Mind):

sounds a bit unscientific ?

Yes i know when gutenberg was born. Im going to assume youre trying to make the claim that knowledge needed the introduction of printing to spread?

Because it didnt.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

i understand there were oral traditions and some books (yet low literary rates?). Yet i also know Europe fell apparently into a dark age where many ideas were lost

im not interested much in what the odd well to do academic or prince thought somewhere in that 1500-2000 year period but rather your average serf. What was the narrative? were the taught (by whom??) it was a globe-ish shape?

Many people today are unaware of the mathematician Eratosthenes of Cyrene. I would hazard a guess this has been the case for much of human history since his time in many parts of the world.

Church never taught it. I would say the fallacy of the flat earth thinking in medieval or even earlier Christian times is one of the bigger fallacies going round.
An out of context quote attributed to Magellan and the romantic nature that Columbus was warned not to set sail because he would fall off the face of the earth etc.

very fair point

Flat earth theory was around but was a minority.

according to who ? i am unaware who is the authoritative source on this yet id like to know

im unsure if the well known george bernard shaw quote is indeed wrong

In the Middle Ages people believed that the earth was flat, for which they had at least the evidence of their senses

 

[Roylion]

according to who ? i am unaware who is the authoritative source on this yet id like to know

Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference".

As for the Middle Ages, a doctoral thesis by Klaus Vogel in 1995, noted that "since the eighth century, no cosmographer worthy of note has called into question the sphericity of the Earth."

A non-exhaustive list of medieval scholars and writers that accepted the earth was spherical includes

Bede, Theodulf of Orléans, Vergilius of Salzburg, Irish monk Dicuil, Rabanus Maurus, King Alfred of England, Remigius of Auxerre, Johannes Scotus Eriugena, Leo of Naples, Gerbert d’Aurillac (Pope Sylvester II), Notker the German of Sankt-Gallen, Hermann of Reichenau, Hildegard von Bingen, Petrus Abaelardus, Honorius Augustodunensis, Gautier de Metz, Adam of Bremen, Albertus Magnus, Thomas Aquinas, Berthold of Regensburg, Guillaume de Conches, Philippe de Thaon, Abu-Idrisi, Bernardus Silvestris, Petrus Comestor, Thierry de Chartres, Gautier de Châtillon, Alexander Neckam, Alain de Lille, Averroes, Snorri Sturluson, Moshe ben Maimon, Lambert of Saint-Omer, Gervasius of Tilbury, Robert Grosseteste, Johannes de Sacrobosco, Thomas de Cantimpré, Peire de Corbian, Vincent de Beauvais, Robertus Anglicus, Juan Gil de Zámora, Ristoro d'Arezzo, Roger Bacon, Jean de Meung, Brunetto Latini, Alfonso X of Castile, Marco Polo, Dante Alighieri, Meister Eckhart, Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II), Perot de Garbalei,, Cecco d'Ascoli, Fazio degli Uberti, Levi ben Gershon, Konrad of Megenberg, Nicole Oresme, Petrus Aliacensis, Alfonso de la Torre, Toscanelli, Brochard the German, Jean de Mandeville, Christine de Pizan, Geoffrey Chaucer, William Caxton, Martin Behaim and Christopher Columbus.

Source: Reinhard Kruger, "The spherical shape of the earth and the global design of the earth in the Middle Ages." Kruger was the Professor for Romance literature at University of Stuttgart.

Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell, of the University of California at Santa Barbara wrote "In Inventing the Flat Earth", (1991) claims that since the third century BC, practically all educated people in the western world believed in a spherical earth.

Looking as a historian into the historical record, he found tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists and scientists who believed that the earth was a sphere.

On the other hand, Russell could find only five Christian authorities who believed in a flat earth.

Russell wrote: "In the first fifteen centuries of the Christian era, five writers seem to have denied the globe, and a few others were ambiguous or uninterested in the question. But nearly unanimous scholarly opinion pronounced the earth spherical, and by the fifteenth century all doubt had disappeared."

In fact, Russell found that the myth that Europeans believed in a flat earth was started in the 1830s by a Frenchman and an American, acting independently. The Frenchman was Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787–1848), an anti-religious academic of great renown. He wrote "On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers" in 1834. He deliberately misrepresented medieval Christians as being scientifically ignorant, and his supposed proof for this incorrect claim was that they believed in a flat earth. The American identified by Burton was Washington Irving (1783–1859), who wrote a history of Christopher Columbus in 1828.

James Hannam, author of God's Philosophers: How the medieval World laid the foundation of modern science" wrote:

"The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896)."

He also wrote:

"The most egregious example is the idea that the Church in the Middle Ages taught that the earth is flat. This is simply false. In fact, medieval textbooks, sermons, and illustrations repeatedly make the point that the earth is round. The orb [the globus cruciger] presented to medieval kings as a symbol of their power represented the earth, as everyone was aware that our planet is spherical. Even in the midst of the so-called ‘dark ages,' St. Isidore of Seville and St. Bede of Jarrow knew perfectly well that the earth is not flat."

The orb (in Latin scriptures orbis terrarum, the 'world of the lands', hence the word "orb") was topped with a cross (hence globus cruciger), symbolising the Christian God's dominion over the world. The emperor held the world (the orb or globe) in his hand, to show that he ruled it on God's behalf. The orb was certainly not flat. It first appeared on coins in the early 5th century and remained popular throughout the Middle Ages in coins, iconography and royal regalia see above).

 

[cannot]

i said "the serf" and "dirt farmer" several times to try and indicate i was wanting to know what they every day person thought as opposed to dark age princes or dark age scholars who would have perhaps have less access to such teaching as the ancient greek mathematicians

in other words, the majority of humans (europeans i suppose) over the last couple thousands years

 

[Long Live HFC]

i said "the serf" and "dirt farmer" several times to try and indicate i was wanting to know what they every day person thought as opposed to dark age princes or dark age scholars who would have perhaps have less access to such teaching as the ancient greek mathematicians

in other words, the majority of humans (europeans i suppose) over the last couple thousands years

And it was not only the learned who knew the shape of the earth - all evidence indicates that this was commonly understood by everyone. A symbol of the earthly power of kings, used in their coronations, was the orb: a golden sphere held in the king’s left hand to represent the earth. That symbolism would not make sense if it was not understood that the earth was round. A collection of German sermons for parish priests from the Thirteenth Century also mentions, in passing, that the earth was “round like a apple” with the expectation that the peasants hearing the sermon already understood what this meant. And the popular Fourteenth Century English book of travelers’ tales, The Tales of Sir John Mandeville, tells of a man who traveled so far east that he returned to his homeland from the west, while not explaining to its audience how this works.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/how-the-middle-ages-reall_b_5767240.html

seems to me like you're pouting over the fact common people 1000 years ago understood our planet's shape better than you do

 

[Roylion]

i said "the serf" and "dirt farmer" several times to try and indicate i was wanting to know what they every day person thought as opposed to dark age princes or dark age scholars who would have perhaps have less access to such teaching as the ancient greek mathematicians

Clearly I have to spell out what the connection was between education and the common man in the medieval period.

During the Early Middle Ages, the monasteries of the Catholic Church were the centers of education and literacy, preserving the Church's selection from Latin learning and maintaining the art of writing. Prior to their formal establishment, many medieval universities were run for hundreds of years as Christian monastic schools in which monks taught classes, and later as cathedral schools some of which date back to the 6th century AD.

Cathedral schools and monasteries remained important throughout the Middle Ages; at the Third Lateran Council of 1179 the Church mandated that priests provide the opportunity of a free education to their flocks. In other words, those that were educated were taught the globe was spherical. Those that weren't formally educated would still have attended church at least once a week, where the church's teachings would have been disseminated and re-inforced. In the 11th century literacy became available to a wider class of people, and there were major advances in art, sculpture, music and architecture. Sculpture, paintings and stained glass windows became important educational media through which Biblical themes and the lives of the saints were taught to illiterate viewers. For example, the Farnese Atlas is a Roman sculpture in Naples, is dated to about AD 150, and would have been seen by many common people in the Middle Ages.

So IF "the serf" and "dirt farmer" thought about the shape of earth at all, they would have been taught the position that the church took on the matter of a spherical earth. The idea would have been re-inforced to them by a number of different types of media as already described - the same as most other church teachings and beliefs were.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The flat earth conspiracy theory has its own thread on the conspiracy board.

Those who continue to want to push that conspiracy theory on the science board will no longer have access here.

 

[Russian Demon]

Perhaps the larger issue is why people deliberately bury their head in the sand, when they know full well the earth is spherical, and work under that assumption in most of their normal life. I get that as humans we have an uncanny ability to suspend disbelief, or believe in things that aren't supported by good evidence -(happens a lot in religion, gambling, relationships) - but the concept of actively trying to achieve that state, rather than see it for the anomaly it is - completely confounds me.