Summer RIO 2016 - Athletics (Track & Road events) 12th to 20th Aug

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Was it just me or was that US relay runner in the third leg really waving his arms around?

Looked suss.
 

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kaiserchief13 said:
Whats that mean? Born as 50% male 50% female?
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Not having details of her medical history but it is possible to have external female genitals and internal testes - conditions where the sex organs don't respond to testosterone. I think she has stated she is Intersex in the past.
 
Dunno why people get so worked up about transgender athletes. It's not like they're changing sex because they want to win an Olympic medal, and the process strips away a lot of their gender-based physical advantages anyway.

If they are left with a bit of an advantage, who cares? Most elite athletes are genetic freaks anyway. We don't ban West Africans from sprinting or people over 6'5" from playing basketball.

Some of the comments in this thread are pretty distasteful and seem more geared around prejudice than a real understanding of the issue.
 

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Demosthenes said:
Dunno why people get so worked up about transgender athletes. It's not like they're changing sex because they want to win an Olympic medal, and the process strips away a lot of their gender-based physical advantages anyway.

If they are left with a bit of an advantage, who cares? Most elite athletes are genetic freaks anyway. We don't ban West Africans from sprinting or people over 6'5" from playing basketball.

Some of the comments in this thread are pretty distasteful and seem more geared around prejudice than a real understanding of the issue.
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We do split basically the entire world of sports on biological lines to ensure women are not competing against men though.

There's an answer to this somewhere, whether it's an upper testosterone limit for female competitors I don't know enough to say for sure, but I don't think the current situation is ideal.
 
Quinz said:
We do split basically the entire world of sports on biological lines to ensure women are not competing against men though.
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Sure. But that line of reasoning presupposes that trans women are still physiologically men. In reality, the hormone therapy they go through strips away a lot of the inherent physiological advantages men have.

Anyway, the differences between men and women are far smaller than the differences within the sexes themselves. Semenya might have more testosterone and muscle mass than the average woman, but you could say the same about Usain Bolt when compared to the average man. We don't exclude him from competing because he was born with an unfair advantage.

If male athletes were transitioning to female in order to take over the female competitions then I could see the argument, but nobody is suggesting that is the case.
 
Demosthenes said:
Sure. But that line of reasoning presupposes that trans women are still physiologically men. In reality, the hormone therapy they go through strips away a lot of the inherent physiological advantages men have.

Anyway, the differences between men and women are far smaller than the differences within the sexes themselves. Semenya might have more testosterone and muscle mass than the average woman, but you could say the same about Usain Bolt when compared to the average man. We don't exclude him from competing because he was born with an unfair advantage.
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That's true, although not all trans women or intersex people (which I think is more of the case with Semenya?) go through aggressive hormone therapy.

I think comparing Semenya and Bolt to 'average' people is ignoring the fact that they're not average people. They're elite athletes competing against other elite athletes, and at that level the differences between men and women are stark.

Demosthenes said:
If male athletes were transitioning to female in order to take over the female competitions then I could see the argument, but nobody is suggesting that is the case.
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And it probably won't ever be the case. But I think given the current circumstances athletics bodies should set out clear guidelines to ensure the equality of competition.
 
Quinz said:
I think comparing Semenya and Bolt to 'average' people is ignoring the fact that they're not average people. They're elite athletes competing against other elite athletes, and at that level the differences between men and women are stark.
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Even if you look at elite athletes the point holds true. Semenya doesn't dominate her competitors as much as Bolt dominates his. Even if she did, who cares? Genetics are unfair. How is a female athlete being born genetically male any more unfair than a 100m sprinter being born genetically West African? What about that monster-tall basketballer in the Opals side?

There is not really any logical argument against trans women competing in female events that doesn't equally apply to gifted athletes of either sex who aren't trans.

Fundamentally, the objection to trans women competing comes down to not seeing them as 'real' women. At that point, the argument is ideological - not physiological.
 
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Demosthenes said:
Even if you look at elite athletes the point holds true. Semenya doesn't dominate her competitors as much as Bolt dominates his. Even if she did, who cares? Genetics are unfair. How is a female athlete being born genetically male any more unfair than a 100m sprinter being born genetically West African? What about that monster-tall basketballer in the Opals side?

There is not really any logical argument against trans women competing in female events that doesn't equally apply to gifted athletes of either sex who aren't trans.

Fundamentally, the objection to trans women competing comes down to not seeing them as 'real' women. At that point, the argument is ideological - not physiological.
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I think that's certainly the case with a lot of people.

If you want to meld the ideological aspect of transgender women with the logical one- there is no requirement for MtF people to undergo hormone replacement therapy, some choose not to. Should a biologically born male, with no HRT, who identifies as female, compete in female sports? If not, why not?

As I've said, there's a line somewhere that the athletics federation should look to draw. Obviously that's a difficult thing to do, I don't know where that line would be, but I think Semenya receives unfair criticism because of their inability to do so. They changed the rules, then they were challenged and overturned.

You only have to look at the Qatari handball team and the blurriness with 'nationality' to see them buying players from all over the world to compete as Qataris. A lot of people find that fundamentally unfair. What does nationality matter though? It matters when we segregate by that for competition. Look at the controversy over Olympic boxing scoring, the changes in scoring methods for gymnastics, horseriding and diving to make them more black and white and less open to interpretation. Sports exist as rule based constructs and thrive when the rules are clear and unambiguous.

Anyway that's my issue with it, I don't really have anything else to add. I don't think we changed each others minds on this one but a good discussion Demosthenes. :D
 
Quinz said:
If you want to meld the ideological aspect of transgender women with the logical one- there is no requirement for MtF people to undergo hormone replacement therapy, some choose not to. Should a biologically born male, with no HRT, who identifies as female, compete in female sports? If not, why not?
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That's not the issue under contention.
 
Demosthenes said:
Even if you look at elite athletes the point holds true. Semenya doesn't dominate her competitors as much as Bolt dominates his. Even if she did, who cares? Genetics are unfair. How is a female athlete being born genetically male any more unfair than a 100m sprinter being born genetically West African? What about that monster-tall basketballer in the Opals side?

There is not really any logical argument against trans women competing in female events that doesn't equally apply to gifted athletes of either sex who aren't trans.

Fundamentally, the objection to trans women competing comes down to not seeing them as 'real' women. At that point, the argument is ideological - not physiological.
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That doesn't make sense. Most sports draw a clear distinction between male and female participants in order to allow female competitors to be able to compete with other females. For most, that line is clear, you're either male or female. For some, it's not so clear, they're in the middle. The question is whether those people in the middle should be entitled to compete in the female category. I don't know the answer to that, but I can at least understand the argument.

I heard an argument comparing Semenya's condition with Phelps' huge armspan - I wasn't aware that there was any restriction on armspan in Phelps' events. But there is clearly a restriction on gender in Semenya's. The same with Bolt's huge stride, or Cambage's height. Neither of those things are restricted in the rules of their respective sports, therefore the comparison with Semenya is absurd.
 
Rob said:
That doesn't make sense. Most sports draw a clear distinction between male and female participants in order to allow female competitors to be able to compete with other females. For most, that line is clear, you're either male or female. For some, it's not so clear, they're in the middle. The question is whether those people in the middle should be entitled to compete in the female category. I don't know the answer to that, but I can at least understand the argument.

I heard an argument comparing Semenya's condition with Phelps' huge armspan - I wasn't aware that there was any restriction on armspan in Phelps' events. But there is clearly a restriction on gender in Semenya's. The same with Bolt's huge stride, or Cambage's height. Neither of those things are restricted in the rules of their respective sports, therefore the comparison with Semenya is absurd.
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You are coming at the discussion from the wrong angle. It is not a question of whether she should be classed as female or male. It is a question of whether the gender she identifies as, and is accepted as by the country of which she is a citizen, should be rejected for sporting reasons.

The argument that is cited in favour of rejecting her status as female is that she has an innate physiological advantage by virtue of her genetic circumstances. This ignores the fact that many athletes have similar or greater advantages that have nothing to do with being TS/intersex. If you remove the physiological argument, the only argument remaining is an ideological one.

I have no problem with people debating the issue, just let's be honest about the latent bigotry that is driving the opposition.
 
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