Treatment versus Vaccine

[iameviljez]

Ivermectin is a cheap, generic drug. Anyone suggesting money is being made off of Ivermectin is 100% full of sh*t. In fact, the bulk of the people on this thread are nothing more than COVID bootlickers who seem to love wallowing in being weak-minded, pathetic excuses for men.

Imagine the lot on this thread having to scale the cliffs of Normandy on D-Day. What a joke that would be. Bunch of f'cking puss'es.

Contrast this: Men with the bravery to scale hundred foot cliffs in the face of 88 mm cannon shells decapitating their buddies versus pansies afraid to leave their house because they might catch a flu-like virus with a survivability rate of 99.8%.

That's the difference in men and puss'es. The difference in freedom loving patriots versus COVID alarmists.

Where did the real men go?

Firstly, this 99.8 figure is crap. The mortality rate from COVID is between 1 and 2 percent depending on the quality of healthcare.

Secondly, this isn’t about fighting, or courage. It is about being sensible. COVID isn’t a soldier, it doesn’t care how hard you shoot or what grenades you throw. Ironically enough, the best way to fight it is to withstand loneliness and get vaccinated, which seems to be too large a sacrifice for many.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Ivermectin is a cheap, generic drug. Anyone suggesting money is being made off of Ivermectin is 100% full of sh*t. In fact, the bulk of the people on this thread are nothing more than COVID bootlickers who seem to love wallowing in being weak-minded, pathetic excuses for men.

Imagine the lot on this thread having to scale the cliffs of Normandy on D-Day. What a joke that would be. Bunch of f'cking puss'es.

Contrast this: Men with the bravery to scale hundred foot cliffs in the face of 88 mm cannon shells decapitating their buddies versus pansies afraid to leave their house because they might catch a flu-like virus with a survivability rate of 99.8%.

That's the difference in men and puss'es. The difference in freedom loving patriots versus COVID alarmists.

Where did the real men go?

WTF.
That is the most extraordinary post I've ever read just about.


I'll leave the gobsmacking naivety about no one profiting from ivermectin alone, cause that's just beyond belief that someone would think that - let alone say it out loud.

As for the war analogy...are you saying that young men blindly following government orders is Ok? Or not??

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The thousands of clinical studies into covid treatments are just for show.
Or something like that

The government site says they're spending $350m on developing and researching treatments and vaccines.

 

[kingswood71]

The government site says they're spending $350m on developing and researching treatments and vaccines.

Yep. not to mention the literal thousands of trials going on in relation to potential treatments world wide.
CSIRO up to the task

 

[HPKS]

In the works: India-made drug to cure mild Covid-19

Covid-19 drug: The candidate drug is currently undergoing phase 1 human trials that are likely to be completed by the end of this month.

www.google.com.au

 

[DougKlingston]

WTF.
That is the most extraordinary post I've ever read just about.


I'll leave the gobsmacking naivety about no one profiting from ivermectin alone, cause that's just beyond belief that someone would think that - let alone say it out loud.

As for the war analogy...are you saying that young men blindly following government orders is Ok? Or not??

I'm saying get off your damn knees. And by the way, who makes money on a generic drug? No one! It's made by 12 different companies. Quit misleading the people on this thread. Everything you post is fear-based and I'm shocked at the number of chicken-s**t types that are willing to listen to it.

By the way, Florida is supposedly burning to the ground with a massive spike in COVID cases. Guess what, people are going about their daily lives. No chicken-s**t lockdowns, no mask mandates, no hide in your closet until someone saves you. Other than the random left-wing loons screaming bloody murder, people in Florida are acting like it's just another day, because it is.

As I said, get off your knees.

 

[HPKS]

I'm saying get off your damn knees. And by the way, who makes money on a generic drug? No one! It's made by 12 different companies. Quit misleading the people on this thread. Everything you post is fear-based and I'm shocked at the number of chicken-sh*t types that are willing to listen to it.

By the way, Florida is supposedly burning to the ground with a massive spike in COVID cases. Guess what, people are going about their daily lives. No chicken-sh*t lockdowns, no mask mandates, no hide in your closet until someone saves you. Other than the random left-wing loons screaming bloody murder, people in Florida are acting like it's just another day, because it is.

As I said, get off your knees.

Florida to launch antibody treatment "strike teams" as COVID-19 patients flood hospitals

Florida hospitalizations are at an all-time high.

www.google.com.au

How Ron DeSantis’s Covid response became the model of what not to do

"These waves are just something you have to deal with."

www.google.com.au

Four Broward County educators die from COVID-19 within 24 hours, as Florida's battle over masks in schools continues

This week Broward County school officials pushed back against Governor DeSantis' ban on mask mandates.

www.google.com.au

United States COVID-19 cases, hospitalisations highest in six months, led by Florida, Arkansas, Louisiana - ABC News

www.google.com.au

 

[HPKS]

Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and the death of herd immunity as Delta changes the score

Infectious disease experts say Australia's COVID experience will become a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" as the Delta strain's high infection rate — even among vaccinated people — turns achieving herd immunity into an "impossibility".

www.google.com.au

 

[Fryman]

Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and the death of herd immunity as Delta changes the score

Infectious disease experts say Australia's COVID experience will become a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" as the Delta strain's high infection rate — even among vaccinated people — turns achieving herd immunity into an "impossibility".

www.google.com.au

Help me out here, that article says Delta will be a “pandemic of the unvaccinated “, but then says delta is just as easily spread by the vaccinated and that herd immunity is impossible even if everyone was vaccinated.

Also interesting they have now moved on to Iceland as the example. What happened to Israel? That was the example Australia was to follow wasn’t it, I hope they didn’t deliberately omit what was happening over there just because the numbers are inconvenient.

 

[HTT]

Help me out here, that article says Delta will be a “pandemic of the unvaccinated “, but then says delta is just as easily spread by the vaccinated and that herd immunity is impossible even if everyone was vaccinated.

Also interesting they have now moved on to Iceland as the example. What happened to Israel? That was the example Australia was to follow wasn’t it, I hope they didn’t deliberately omit what was happening over there just because the numbers are inconvenient.

Spreads through the vaccinated, but doesn’t actually bother them thanks to the 90+% efficacy preventing hospitalisation, then hits the unvaccinated who do not have such protection, and even their tiny proportion of the population will make up the majority of hospitalisations.

 

[The 747]

Help me out here, that article says Delta will be a “pandemic of the unvaccinated “, but then says delta is just as easily spread by the vaccinated and that herd immunity is impossible even if everyone was vaccinated.

Also interesting they have now moved on to Iceland as the example. What happened to Israel? That was the example Australia was to follow wasn’t it, I hope they didn’t deliberately omit what was happening over there just because the numbers are inconvenient.

People who are unvaccinated are more likely to suffer from the virus and the virus wil eventually be circulating everywhere. I am not sure why you find this confusing.

 

[Fryman]

Spreads through the vaccinated, but doesn’t actually bother them thanks to the 90+% efficacy preventing hospitalisation, then hits the unvaccinated who do not have such protection, and even their tiny proportion of the population will make up the majority of hospitalisations.

What is the chance of being hospitalised without the vaccine? 20%, 30%, 40%?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Firstly, this 99.8 figure is crap. The mortality rate from COVID is between 1 and 2 percent depending on the quality of healthcare.

Not true. You're quoting the case per fatality rate (CFR) not the infection fatality rate (IFR). Based on the Lancet study from India, funded by everyone's favourite Gates foundation.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00393-5/fulltext

"Between May 20, 2020, and Oct 31, 2020, 13·5 diagnostic tests were done per 100 inhabitants within Madurai, as compared to 7·9 tests per 100 inhabitants throughout India. From a total of 440 253 RT-PCR tests, 15 781 (3·6%) SARS-CoV-2 infections were identified, with 8720 (5·4%) of 160 273 being positive among individuals with symptoms, and 7061 (2·5%) of 279 980 being positive among individuals without symptoms, at the time of presentation. Estimated aORs for symptomatic RT-PCR-confirmed infection increased continuously by a factor of 4·3 from ages 0–4 years to 80 years or older. By contrast, risk of asymptomatic RT-PCR-confirmed infection did not differ across ages 0–44 years, and thereafter increased by a factor of 1·6 between ages 45–49 years and 80 years or older. Seroprevalence was 40·1% (95% CI 35·8–44·6) at age 15 years or older by the end of the study period, indicating that RT-PCR clinical testing and surveillance testing identified only 1·4% (1·3–1·6%) of all infections in this age group. Among RT-PCR-confirmed cases, older age, male sex, and history of cancer, diabetes, other endocrine disorders, hypertension, other chronic circulatory disorders, respiratory disorders, and chronic kidney disease were each associated with elevated risk of mortality. The CFR among RT-PCR-confirmed cases was 2·4% (2·2–2·6); after age standardisation. At age 15 years or older, the IFR based on reported deaths was 0·043% (0·039–0·049), with reported deaths being only 11·0% (8·2–14·5) of the expected count."

 

[The 747]

What is the chance of being hospitalised without the vaccine? 20%, 30%, 40%?

Lower than that, but difficult to assess accurately due to the difference in health care standards and also the difference between the severity of variants.

 

[kingswood71]

What is the chance of being hospitalised without the vaccine? 20%, 30%, 40%?

Thats a difficult question to answer as there are many variables. For example, an 80 year old fully vaccinated person is still at greater risks than say a 50 year old otherwise healthy vaccinated person. A 50 year old with COPD who is vaccinated would be a greater risk than a 70 year old with no medical issues. An 18 year old unvaccinated with no medical issues would be much less risk than a 40 year old obese fully vaccinated person with diabetes and asthma.
If you look at Israel, as of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older.
Sounds alarming but isnt surprising. Vaccines are a risk reduction tool, not a cure.
Iceland has 1200+ cases, 3% in hospital. No deaths.
If you look at hospital admissions, the US is miles ahead of the UK. Why do you think that is??

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Hospitalizations

On this page, we provide daily-updated data on hospitalizations and intensive care (ICU) admissions due to COVID-19. Our hospital & ICU data is collected from official sources and collated by Our World in Data. The complete list of country-by-country sources is available on GitHub.

ourworldindata.org

Of course this could all change in the coming months if a new variant appears and all of a sudden this variant is immune to current vaccines. We dont know. But, science is watching and will act as the science dictates. And that includes treatments.

 

[Fryman]

An 18 year old unvaccinated with no medical issues would be much less risk than a 40 year old obese fully vaccinated person with diabetes and asthma.

So why would we need the 18 year old to get vaccinated?

 

[HTT]

What is the chance of being hospitalised without the vaccine? 20%, 30%, 40%?

Hard to predict but based on data:

USA peak active cases: 9 million
USA peak hospitalisations: 130,000
USA hospitalisation rate at peak: 1.4%

UK peak active cases: 2 million
UK peak hospitalisations: 40,000
UK hospitalisation rate at peak: 2%

Sweden peak active cases: 190,000
Sweden peak hospitalisations: 3000
Sweden hospitalisation rate at peak: 1.6%

Somewhere around there probably.

So if we all get it (which we probably will if we open up), with no vaccinations at 1.5% hospitalisations, around 375,000 Australians will be hospitalised for it at some point.

AZ is 92% effective against hospitalisation from the delta variant, Pfizer is 96% (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ve-against-hospitalisation-from-delta-variant)

If 80% of us are vaccinated with AZ (20 million), we will have 80% of the population with 0.08 * 0.015 = 0.12% chance of hospitalisation and 20% of the population with a 1.5% chance of hospitalisation. That gives a total of 99,000 people that will be hospitalised at some point (75k unvaccinated, 24k vaccinated)

Repeat that calculation for the Pfizer vaccine and you get 87,000 (75k unvaccinated, 12k vaccinated).

So with a mix of the two, mostly Pfizer we will sit somewhere there.

Now if 100% of us get vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine, just 15,000 people will be hospitalised with coronavirus after running through the entire population.

 

[Fryman]

Hard to predict but based on data:

USA peak active cases: 9 million
USA peak hospitalisations: 130,000
USA hospitalisation rate at peak: 1.4%

UK peak active cases: 2 million
UK peak hospitalisations: 40,000
UK hospitalisation rate at peak: 2%

Sweden peak active cases: 190,000
Sweden peak hospitalisations: 3000
Sweden hospitalisation rate at peak: 1.6%

Somewhere around there probably.

So if we all get it (which we probably will if we open up), with no vaccinations at 1.5% hospitalisations, around 375,000 Australians will be hospitalised for it at some point.

AZ is 92% effective against hospitalisation from the delta variant, Pfizer is 96% (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ve-against-hospitalisation-from-delta-variant)

If 80% of us are vaccinated with AZ (20 million), we will have 80% of the population with 0.08 * 0.015 = 0.12% chance of hospitalisation and 20% of the population with a 1.5% chance of hospitalisation. That gives a total of 99,000 people that will be hospitalised at some point (75k unvaccinated, 24k vaccinated)

Repeat that calculation for the Pfizer vaccine and you get 87,000 (75k unvaccinated, 12k vaccinated).

So with a mix of the two, mostly Pfizer we will sit somewhere there.

Now if 100% of us get vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine, just 15,000 people will be hospitalised with coronavirus after running through the entire population.

Does your maths take into account the 30% asymptomatic rate for unvaccinated?

 

[HTT]

Does your maths take into account the 30% asymptomatic rate for unvaccinated?

My maths splits case outcomes into hopsitalised and not hopsitalised, asymptomatic would come under the ‘not hopsitalised’ category.

 

[kingswood71]

Not true. You're quoting the case per fatality rate (CFR) not the infection fatality rate (IFR). Based on the Lancet study from India, funded by everyone's favourite Gates foundation.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00393-5/fulltext

"Between May 20, 2020, and Oct 31, 2020, 13·5 diagnostic tests were done per 100 inhabitants within Madurai, as compared to 7·9 tests per 100 inhabitants throughout India. From a total of 440 253 RT-PCR tests, 15 781 (3·6%) SARS-CoV-2 infections were identified, with 8720 (5·4%) of 160 273 being positive among individuals with symptoms, and 7061 (2·5%) of 279 980 being positive among individuals without symptoms, at the time of presentation. Estimated aORs for symptomatic RT-PCR-confirmed infection increased continuously by a factor of 4·3 from ages 0–4 years to 80 years or older. By contrast, risk of asymptomatic RT-PCR-confirmed infection did not differ across ages 0–44 years, and thereafter increased by a factor of 1·6 between ages 45–49 years and 80 years or older. Seroprevalence was 40·1% (95% CI 35·8–44·6) at age 15 years or older by the end of the study period, indicating that RT-PCR clinical testing and surveillance testing identified only 1·4% (1·3–1·6%) of all infections in this age group. Among RT-PCR-confirmed cases, older age, male sex, and history of cancer, diabetes, other endocrine disorders, hypertension, other chronic circulatory disorders, respiratory disorders, and chronic kidney disease were each associated with elevated risk of mortality. The CFR among RT-PCR-confirmed cases was 2·4% (2·2–2·6); after age standardisation. At age 15 years or older, the IFR based on reported deaths was 0·043% (0·039–0·049), with reported deaths being only 11·0% (8·2–14·5) of the expected count."

So many orders of magnitude higher IFR than the flu then.

 

[Fryman]

My maths splits case outcomes into hopsitalised and not hopsitalised, asymptomatic would come under the ‘not hopsitalised’ category.

Assuming the asymptomatic knew to get a test done and thus be included in the positive case numbers.

 

[kingswood71]

So why would we need the 18 year old to get vaccinated?

Because the 18 year cant predict if he/she will be an asymptomatic case, a mild case or a mod case. Can only look at the risk reductions.
You know kids can end up in hospital with covid right?

 

[LeverPuller]

The reality is that we want both. The vaccine, despite not preventing Delta infection, definitely reduces the risk of serious disease. At the same time, when you do get serious disease, treatment options are required to help ease the burden on both patient and health system.

 

[kingswood71]

The reality is that we want both. The vaccine, despite not preventing Delta infection, definitely reduces the risk of serious disease. At the same time, when you do get serious disease, treatment options are required to help ease the burden on both patient and health system.

Absolutely! Which is why people are researching potential treatments.
Even potential treatments that reduce the risk of mild cases becoming worse.

 

[Fryman]

Because the 18 year cant predict if he/she will be an asymptomatic case, a mild case or a mod case. Can only look at the risk reductions.
You know kids can end up in hospital with covid right?

Sure, but tell me the risk of a healthy unvaccinated 18 year old ending up in hospital with covid first.

Then we can make a judgment on how valuable vaccinating them is.