Thats a well written post. Well thought out. Thank you. Its similar to discussions I have had with younger patients where we just do a risk v benefit analysis.
Good luck with the covid infection. Hope you go well.
NO TROLLS What is the actual case against COVID Vaccination?
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Good luck with the covid infection. Hope you go well.
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A good first up post mate. Hopefully you don’t get jumped on. Interesting why some are so quick to rush out and jab their kids given the stats and figures. Some have even labelled non jabbing parents as child abuse.
owen87
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Without getting bogged down in all the other stuff, this 'argument' needs to go away.
If Natural Immunity was a vaccine brand along with Pfizer, Moderna, and Astra-Zeneca, no one would take it because the rate of side effects are way too high.
You're far better off being exposed to SARS-CoV-2 having already been vaccinated, than you are waiting for the Natural Immunity vaccine.
Just on this (and I wouldn't label a parent a child abuser in the above situation, I think that is a ridiculous comment by those people), there have also been others that have labelled parents who are vaccinating their children as child abusers, and have done so quite publicly when parents were taking their kids to be vaccinated. What are your thoughts on those individuals?
owen87
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I'm sure lebbo sends top notch emails
This is the sort of approach to these issues that I'd love to see more of. Reasonable posts with an understanding of positives and negatives. There's plenty I agree with here and a big part of why I've always said that if people are unsure they need to have discussions with their medical professional when they have these "for" and "against" conundrums.
There's a couple of "against" arguments that continue to pop up that I'm just not sold on though. Particularly the one around the vaccine not providing protection against infection. This is not the vaccines (or any vaccines) intended job. No vaccine can stop the target virus entering the body. All vaccines act to enhance the immune response post the virus entering the body.
The other one being the side effects being more prevalent argument. We've spoken about this at length and I still very much believe the increased reporting of side effects is heavily influenced by the increased surveying and increased focus given the situation we are in. In my opinion, if the exact same vaccine was given in a seasonal flu like situation, rather than a pandemic, we would be seeing similar side effect reporting.
Also, I understand your argument 2, but it feels is very much a personal opinion rather than something people should use when considering whether to vaccinate or not.
In regards to your question, I don't necessarily think there is a need for blanket mandates across all industries (as I've mentioned in the early stages of these discussions) but am absolutely for mandates in specific industries (such as healthcare providers & education). However, I also am OK, in the current state, with an employer making a decision regarding vaccination requirements of staff and customers. I don't expect that these requirements would continue once we are finally on top of the pandemic (which it feels we are heading towards).
Officially requesting a daily podcast of emails being read out. We just need to find a voice actor...
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Don’t approve of that either. I don’t like any of the pressure or bullying from both sides of the fence.
sr36
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It needs to go away for those who haven't had covid, but it is relevant for the very large numbers who have had it.
However, it needs to be analysed and discussed by experts - not laymen, except in terms of personal interest, rather than from a this is what should happen point of view.
owen87
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How is it relevant?
Get vaccinated, reduce your chances of the far more serious and likely side effects of COVID-19.
If you've had COVID-19, you have a window of increased immunity whereby you don't need a vaccine or booster for a time, because it's effectively counting as a 'dose'.
What needs to be discussed?
Unvaccinated exposure to SARS-CoV-2 is far more likely to have a poor outcome than vaccinated exposure, ergo, 'Natural Immunity' is being misrepresented as a viable option, when it's simply not.
sr36
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This isn't a given for those who have had covid and aren't vaxed, thus it's relevant for them. And is also relevant in terms of boosters for those who are both vaxed and have had covid.
owen87
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Except this isn't the context it's been used in.
It's being used to try to argue that "Natural Immunity" is a viable alternative to being vaccinated. It's simply not. People are being incredibly disingenuous to suggest it is.
sr36
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It's important not to throw out the things that might be right just because some are trying to inappropriately use them or jumping on them before they've been trialled .
So many darts are being thrown that it's a matter of time before some appropriate recommendations or treatments are hit upon.
owen87
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What of this is relevant to the misrepresentation of Natural Immunity as a viable vaccine alternative, or as an argument not to be vaccinated?
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Will you just bugger off. You don’t have to jump in on every bloody comment
sr36
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Because it may be a viable vaccine or booster alternative for people who have already had covid, which every day becomes an increasingly more significant part of the population. The jury appears to still be out regarding that.
sr36
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So do the vaccinated.
The question is whether the vaccine is beneficial and reduces instances and hospitalisations in the now quite large group of people who have recovered from a case and thus whether or when they should get a booster shot and thus whether mandates should apply for unvaccinated recoverees now and or if a third dose is considered necessary to be considered fully vaccinated. Different countries have come to different conclusions as the medical jury is still out.
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I’ve got no problem with parents not getting there kids vaccinated I’ve got friends who have made that choice
But looking at the side effects literally zero comped to the thousands of children admitted to icu the long Covid brain fog lethargy being reported I decided to have my son vaccinated cost benefit for me favours the vaccine
New research is showing the T cell memory is far superior from vaccine than natural infection
It seems to suggest that vaccines are a better long term protection
1200 child deaths from covid in the USA zero from the vaccine
A virus that when it takes of attacks the brain heart and other organs long term affects of a bad case of covid still unknown I’m pretty happy with my decision but won’t begrudge others there’s maybe you should take the same advice
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Have time to address some points now
1, We dont have an EUA in Australia. We use a provisional registration process. The emergency use thing was taken up by some to make the vaccines "look bad". People forget that in Australia we have a whole raft of drugs that are provisionally approved. What the process does is allows a product to be use provisionally, either new drugs or a changed indication, that then carries extra reporting requirements with enhanced monitoring before it can be given full approval. The basic idea behind the provisional pathway is to allow new therapeutics to be used earlier than full approval would take, due to a pressing need for them, This also includes a plan for comprehensive follow up. Our processes are very robust in Australia.
2. Of course governments spent lots of money to purchase vaccines. To not do so would have been criminal. Imagine Scotty saying "nah, dont worry about about it, we dont need them, we will just see what happens" back in late 2020 when we had much worse variants than omicron around. We knew ages ago that the only real way out of the pandemic while avoiding a health crisis and many deaths was to have a high vaccination rate. That was never alarmist or an agenda, it was a fact.
3. 2 doses doesnt provide protection against infection but still has a good effectiveness against severe disease/death. The data shows this. A booster dose does on the other hand increase the effectiveness against both measures. Ultimately, case numbers are less important as its the ability to keep people out of hospital and dying that is the most important measure. I will balance that by saying that omicron seems to be less severe and this helps too. But, when we rolled out the vaccines, we didnt know omicron was coming. We must remember though that a new variant could arrive either locally or from somewhere else that is way worse. We are still in a pandemic and the assumption that omicron is the last variant and will become endemic is just an assumption. More cases can lead to more variants. Just because countries are opening up does not mean the pandemic is over yet.
4. What could the long term side effects be? We know the long term possible SE's from covid infection. We had an idea of "long covid" well before covid was a thing. Follow up from the first SARS showed that many people suffered effects many years later. I am always interested when people say that we dont know the long term safety profile of the vaccines, well we dont 100% know the long term safety profile of covid infection either. I personally would bet that a fraction of the spike protein is preferable to the whole genetic makeup of the virus. We know that viruses can insert into human DNA, in fact about 8% of human DNA is viral. The world better hope that SARS-CoV-2 isnt some large oncogene!
5. There are side effects and there are adverse reactions. A side effect is something we expect, like a sore arm. An adverse reaction is something we didnt expect like myocarditis. The data shows SE's are similar to all other vaccines. Adverse effects have been identified and are being monitored. I would debate that the vaccines cause more reactions than others. The real data doesnt support this. People use things like the DAEN or the American system to attempt to draw conclusion, but forget that correlation is not causation. It has to also be remembered that this is a huge roll out where people have been told to report events so this adds to the high number of reports. In addition, we were advised that we legally had to report as the vaccines are provisional so they want data. As we have seen with TSS and myocarditis, real risks have been identified early and plans have been put into place to address them. You look at the DAEN as a medical practitioner and you wonder WTF? Currently 3 people "died" from blurred vision and 3 "died" from an injection site reaction!! People look at this type of data and attempt to draw conclusions whilst forgetting that the website says "An adverse event report does not mean that the medicine is the cause of the adverse event". People like that senator want to use this data to paint vaccines in a bad light, while the people who actually know medicine generally just stay quite and worry about real stuff. The small dog barks the loudest as it suits their agenda.
6. Some countries took a far more cautious approach and thats fine. We made changes in Australia to our roll out once we knew the small risk of TTS with AZ by allowing all age groups to access pfizer. It doesnt mean the vaccines are "bad", it just means that they have assessed the level or risk differently.
7. I am not sure where your % comes from? But whatever the number it wont be accurate as its always based on confirmed cases. It will be an crude estimate at best based on hospitalization rates of confirmed cases. Whatever it is, it is low because of a combination of vaccination and a less severe stain. This is good. I am not complaining if the hospital rate hits zero %
8. Yes, younger people who have no medical issues are less likely to suffer an poor outcome. Thats great! This is why when I have sat with patients who are hesitant we have gone thru the risks v benefits, including things like transmission, long covid and community responsibility.
9. Natural immunity wanes. This has been shown in multiple studies. Of course to get natural immunity to have to get the infection. That also carries risks. If covid infection was a vaccine, it would never get provisional approval based on its risk profile
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owen87
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Natural Immunity wanes too, as per kingswood's comment.
Framing it as a 'viable alternative' is highly misrepresentative.
There's a small percentage of the population who aren't vaccinated, a proportion of whom have had covid, others who haven't.
The jury is still out regarding, what, in particular?
There's already allowances for people who've tested positive to defer vaccination and are considered 'vaccinated' for check-in purposes. What else is there?
Natural Immunity is a significantly worse vaccination option than simply being vaccinated, if you're not vaccinated as an adult, and haven't had covid, get vaccinated. It's quite simple. There's no better alternative option.
If you've had 2 doses, and haven't had covid, and it's been 3 - 6 months, get the booster. Also simple.
