Autopsy Round 3 - Saints v Lions

[Diehard Saint]

Like Coff and Hunter or Billings , not saying Trav wont make it but showing you we dont have a good history ,

Honestly, all, mainly Coff and Hunter have been seriously injury affected. You have no idea what their trajectory could have been.

Billings had the huge misfortune of playing under the worst coaching team at a time our club was seriously in the poo. Put him in a top 8 team and he would’ve been a different player.

History doesn’t matter, we cant change it. What matters is what they do now.
Judging Trav right now is not it.
Remember Goddard, Hayes, Joey etc and how long they took to come on?

 

[stavro#4]

12 months ago, not many had Windy worth the contract he wanted and got, currently this season he is going at: (Champion Data ranking)

25.5 disposals (Elite)
3.8 I50 (Elite)
3 R50 (Average)
3.8 clearances (Elite)
6 score involvements (elite)

My point isn’t how good is Windy travelling.

It’s that there are a number who can achieve it.

Pou Wilson Tauru Garcia Hastie Travaglia Boxshall Hall Caminiti will all play games or most of this season. It starts here.

 

[PJays]

The problem with this is even though we weren't terrible, just like vs Melbourne and Collingwood, we've got a bye then back to back Adelaide games meaning were very likely to be heading to round 7 1-5, which is a very deep hole to come out of.

I'd say the Port game is close to a 50/50 proposition. They'll be missing Rozee who's one of their few A graders.

We beat them at Adelaide Oval last year by 19.

They were 8-4 there in 2025 (ignoring the 2 games vs Adelaide). Other than us - Freo (6 pts), Geelong (76) and Sydney(19) all beat them, and they had close wins vs North (9) and GC (4).

There will also be loads of gather round neutrals in the crowd too, many will be politely barracking for us, so the atmosphere won't be quite like a usual Port game.

 

[ScrappyDo]

That's what I mean, though. The focus doesn't seem to be on recruiting, training and implementing high level skills. Running and effort is prioritised. Travaglia over Reid is the perfect example of this mentality

Trav over Reid is a somewhat separate issue but indicative of philosophy. Since we haven't had access to top 5 picks we're forced to weigh skills v's athleticism and RTB had effectively said he wants runners so we lean towards athleticism which ruled out Reid as that was seen as his major flaw. 9 or 10 other clubs pased on Reid FWIW. I was chips in on Lindsay that year, and l reckon he'd be very handy off HB for us atm.

We do have some skilled players like Hunter, Macrae, Henry, Collard, Keeler and Pou but that list is injured, out of form or lacks the necessary drive. So you can see that it's tough to get it all in 1 package and plenty can go wrong.

It's entirely possible the philosophy won't deliver and the shift to trading indicates the current crop of kids is deemed suitable for the plan so we've got what we've got. No point making yourself miserable about it coz the club is committed to their plan and will ride it out. Take some heart from the reality that we're clearly playing below capacity ATM so theres plenty of up-side to come.

Have a look at Norff who have gone about it the opposite way and with the help of top 5 picks and draft handouts. Are they better placed than us? I don't reckon so.
RTB is conservative and has chosen a ground up model which limits losses and it's a model that delivers few opportunities to party before it turns good, but when it eventually turns it's underpinned by solid foundations.
Joey has been pushing tempered expectations for this year (and next) so take that as the best you'll get so far as internal opinions.

 

[Diehard Saint]

12 months ago, not many had Windy worth the contract he wanted and got, currently this season he is going at: (Champion Data ranking)

25.5 disposals (Elite)
3.8 I50 (Elite)
3 R50 (Average)
3.8 clearances (Elite)
6 score involvements (elite)

My point isn’t how good is Windy travelling.

It’s that there are a number who can achieve it.

Pou Wilson Tauru Garcia Hastie Travaglia Boxshall Hall Caminiti will all play games or most of this season. It starts here.

Yep I was one prepared to let him go.
Shows how much I know

 

[Yawkey way]

Our best midfield will come from Nas, Hall, Garcia, Windhager, Boxshall, Wilson, Phillipou and Flanders. Only Nas and Flanders are over 22 yo. None have over 100 games yet. Nas is working through breaking a tag.

Our senior guys are Macrae, Dow, Byrnes, Clark, Hill. Unfortunately most are out of action.

Our side is a work in progress. At some point our kids will either step up or move on. Brisbane are in more advanced stage of development. We still have kids like Fincher, Banfield, LOC, Dodson, Hastie etc all in development and will add more as we go.

In Lyon talk we no longer bring a knife to a gun fight, but we are probably turning up with a sword still.

I don’t see any of those players as a natural centre square A grade mid.

It’s not that we’re bereft of talent in fact far from it it’s just we have an obvious weakness. We won some meaningless games over the last couple of years and it has cost us access to the mids we need.

We’ll be better with a couple back and our guys certainly put in but what would we look like with just one genuine A grader in there.

 

[stavro#4]

Just on Tauru.

There is a duality to his performances.

I don’t have the usage stats. But I’d imagine that amount of times we go to him is very low.

But when we do, he genuinely impacts positively.

From memory. Failed hanger that led to the Sharman goal.

Hanger taken that should have resulted in the wood goal (post)

Free kick for obstructing him in a marking contest (goal.)

Outside of that. I don’t recall a lot of targeting Alix with delivery.

That’s on the playing group and coaches

 

[stavro#4]

Trav over Reid is a somewhat separate issue but indicative of philosophy. Since we haven't had access to top 5 picks we're forced to weigh skills v's athleticism and RTB had effectively said he wants runners so we lean towards athleticism which ruled out Reid as that was seen as his major flaw. 9 or 10 other clubs pased on Reid FWIW. I was chips in on Lindsay that year, and l reckon he'd be very handy off HB for us atm.

We do have some skilled players like Hunter, Macrae, Henry, Collard, Keeler and Pou but that list is injured, out of form or lacks the necessary drive. So you can see that it's tough to get it all in 1 package and plenty can go wrong.

It's entirely possible the philosophy won't deliver and the shift to trading indicates the current crop of kids is deemed suitable for the plan so we've got what we've got. No point making yourself miserable about it coz the club is committed to their plan and will ride it out. Take some heart from the reality that we're clearly playing below capacity ATM so theres plenty of up-side to come.

Have a look at Norff who have gone about it the opposite way and with the help of top 5 picks and draft handouts. Are they better placed than us? I don't reckon so.
RTB is conservative and has chosen a ground up model which limits losses and it's a model that delivers few opportunities to party before it turns good, but when it eventually turns it's underpinned by solid foundations.
Joey has been pushing tempered expectations for this year (and next) so take that as the best you'll get so far as internal opinions.

Why is not taking Reid solely on us?

He was touted as high as pick 5 and as low as pick 16.

He was taken at 17.

Us x 2
Melbourne x 2
Richmond x 3
Port x 1
West coast x 1

All didn’t take him.

I think it needs to stop being a discussion point when it was even directly after our pick. There was some gap.

 

[Speck]

The biggest improvement for us will come from one of our young mids standing up alongside Nas. Pou, Garcia, Box, Wilson all have the tools, but we need them to take that next step to a consistent 30+ touches and big impact on the game. We also expected Flanders to do that but he hasn't yet.

We know what we'll get from Macrae and Windy I'd say. Windy's physicality helped a lot in the middle yesterday in the absence of Macrae. But he is less polished and tends to hack kick it forward.

 

[Vacuous Space]

Travaglia is 19. We drafted him for a decade of football, not for him to dominate in his second year. People need to stop expecting instant gratification with draftees. It takes time to develop them.

If we had drafted Reid, Hall might not have got the opportunity that he did last year and become the player that he is. And no one outside of 5 vocal posters on here actually think not picking someone who who went 10 picks later, that other clubs also looked over multiple times, is any type of reflection on our recruiting team.

Reid hasn't exactly addressed his deficiencies either. Everyone knew he was good ball-in-hand and he still dropped. He's not big, he's not fast, he's not great at the contest and he's not good defensively. It's not at all guaranteed he's ever going to be a full time midfielder. We're not exactly screaming out for a crafty small forward.

Trav, OTOH, is big, is good at the contest and is good defensively. The extent to which he struggles with his disposal has been greatly exaggerated. 89% DE last weekend, 80% last year at AFL level and 85% at the champs. Boosted a bit because he handballs so much, but he's clearly not a turnover machine. Like you said, he's 19. At the end of his fourth season, he'll still be 21. He's got time.

Also worth keeping in mind that some of his vocal opponents had decided they disliked him before ever watching him play a game, so, grain of salt and all that.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Honestly, all, mainly Coff and Hunter have been seriously injury affected. You have no idea what their trajectory could have been.

Billings had the huge misfortune of playing under the worst coaching team at a time our club was seriously in the poo. Put him in a top 8 team and he would’ve been a different player.

History doesn’t matter, we cant change it. What matters is what they do now.
Judging Trav right now is not it.
Remember Goddard, Hayes, Joey etc and how long they took to come on?

You tell me i have no idea yet you tell me Billings would have been so much better in a different team
So billings plays probably his most influental game in his 20th game against the dogs in a sh1t team , id say its more the player that was the problem than the coaching staff

 

[jwikked]

Which demonstrates he's been a good ruckman over a long

I think it demonstrates he's been a good player, not necessarily a good ruck. His best work is around the grounds, not

You tell me i have no idea yet you tell me Billings would have been so much better in a different team
So billings plays probably his most influental game in his 20th game against the dogs in a sh1t team , id say its more the player that was the problem than the coaching staff

I’ve never seen a vanilla player live off the reputation of a single game like Billings did. That game would have added 70+ games to his career

 

[ScrappyDo]

Why is not taking Reid solely on us?

He was touted as high as pick 5 and as low as pick 16.

He was taken at 17.

Us x 2
Melbourne x 2
Richmond x 3
Port x 1
West coast x 1

All didn’t take him.

I think it needs to stop being a discussion point when it was even directly after our pick. There was some gap.

I agree 100%

 

[stavro#4]

I don’t see any of those players as a natural centre square A grade mid.

It’s not that we’re bereft of talent in fact far from it it’s just we have an obvious weakness. We won some meaningless games over the last couple of years and it has cost us access to the mids we need.

We’ll be better with a couple back and our guys certainly put in but what would we look like with just one genuine A grader in there.

I’d argue that our recruiting has been inline with what all the good clubs have been doing bar the gifts Brisbane have received.

All the others have taken hybrid mids and developed them over time.

Similar vein to Pou Windy Garcia Travaglia Wilson Hall.

Compare it against the top 6 sides.

Gold Coast has turned off the back of a weight of numbers in quality from their draft gifts.

The Dogs have Bont. But their draftees are all hybrids bar Sanders yet they play him as a hybrid. Recruited Kennedy as a bonafide inside mid.

Freos recruitment of late has been hybrids to support Serong and Brayshaw.

Crows are literally hybrid midfielders. Not pure mids.

Hawks similar bar Newcombe who they got in the MSD.

 

[saintbill]

I disagree with this by 200%

In 2024, I went round 2 Melbourne v Hawks as a neutral - wife is Melbourne supporter.

They (hawks) looked like they were 10 years off they were playing that bad!

Hawks supporters around me were laughing they were that bad.

There was no game style that day. They chipped the ball around their backline for first 2 qtrs playing keep it off Melbourne..

They since turned it around after round 7-8

We may not do that, we may well do. But your observations are incorrect.

That is nice u saw 1 Hawks game. My brother goes for Hawks and have saw plenty of Hawks games with brother and nephew since 2022 when Sam Mitchell took over.

Mitchell had them moving the ball quickly almost immediately they just made a lot of mistakes.

The exact same thing happened at Brissie. Bold game plan, spread hard, be aggressive with ball use, heaps of turnovers, but eventually the players figured it out at both clubs. There were signs it was going to click, did not magically happen.

No such signs we have a game plan that will trouble any good side consistently. Lyons coaching feels a lot like the Richo days to be honest. Need to massively outwork the opposition to be any chance at all.

Game plan is basically, is there an obvious switch? Usually no, because we are not fit enough, and there is very little spread. As such, revert to a bomb down the line for a contest, hope for the best from there.

No overlap, no use of the corridor, not enough spread, no leading forwards.

The only difference between Richo and Lyon is Lyon gives a more entertaining press conference.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

12 months ago, not many had Windy worth the contract he wanted and got, currently this season he is going at: (Champion Data ranking)

25.5 disposals (Elite)
3.8 I50 (Elite)
3 R50 (Average)
3.8 clearances (Elite)
6 score involvements (elite)

My point isn’t how good is Windy travelling.

It’s that there are a number who can achieve it.

Pou Wilson Tauru Garcia Hastie Travaglia Boxshall Hall Caminiti will all play games or most of this season. It starts here.

Windy has steadily improved every year that he has been on the list. Showed great glimpses of class early and has lifted production year over year.

Avg disposals by year: 12, 16, 18, 22 and now sitting at 25.5. Awesome work from Windy. That's the kind of improvement that we need from our young players. We're not getting that from many others.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Windy has steadily improved every year that he has been on the list. Showed great glimpses of class early and has lifted production year over year.

Avg disposals by year: 12, 16, 18, 22 and now sitting at 25.5. Awesome work from Windy. That's the kind of improvement that we need from our young players. We're not getting that from many others.

Windy is the oldest of the group.
Wilson
Garcia
Hall
Pou (stav put his numbers up earlier, clear )
Box (second year, WIP)

 

[The Jack]

Upon reflection both teams looked like bottom 8 sides for the majority of the game. Some of the skill errors from both teams were comical at times.

Brisbane looked like a top 4 side in the last 20 minutes coinciding with us looking like a bottom 4 side. I’m not as bullish as some.

 

[Sully111]

Upon reflection both teams looked like bottom 8 sides for the majority of the game. Some of the skill errors from both teams were comical at times.

Brisbane looked like a top 4 side in the last 20 minutes coinciding with us looking like a bottom 4 side. I’m not as bullish as some.

Fair point.

 

[Diehard Saint]

You tell me i have no idea yet you tell me Billings would have been so much better in a different team
So billings plays probably his most influental game in his 20th game against the dogs in a sh1t team , id say its more the player that was the problem than the coaching staff

You kinda missed the part about Hunter and Coffs injuries though…
Seriously, don’t take it so personally. I shouldve said WE have no idea what their trajectory could have been without the injuries so WE cannot sit here now and say their selections were a bust.

 

[Kennedy84]

Travaglia is 19. We drafted him for a decade of football, not for him to dominate in his second year. People need to stop expecting instant gratification with draftees. It takes time to develop them.

If we had drafted Reid, Hall might not have got the opportunity that he did last year and become the player that he is. And no one outside of 5 vocal posters on here actually think not picking someone who who went 10 picks later, that other clubs also looked over multiple times, is any type of reflection on our recruiting team.

He also has a slight frame, which may take some time to fill out. 9/10 I'd take the wirey kid over the big kid, as they've likely had to survive off their skill. One thing you can't fault him on his attack on the ball, once he matures, I think he'll be good.

 

[Sir Owens]

Just on Tauru.

There is a duality to his performances.

I don’t have the usage stats. But I’d imagine that amount of times we go to him is very low.

But when we do, he genuinely impacts positively.

From memory. Failed hanger that led to the Sharman goal.

Hanger taken that should have resulted in the wood goal (post)

Free kick for obstructing him in a marking contest (goal.)

Outside of that. I don’t recall a lot of targeting Alix with delivery.

That’s on the playing group and coaches

Was thinking this as well. Would love to see him hitting the flanks like Roey used to do. Im guessing he doesn't have the fitness base for that role yet.

 

[thekizzler]

Having King back would make us a different side. A tall who can mark or spill gives the guy rushing a kick a get out option.

Time for Caminiti to be that player if King isn't.

 

[thekizzler]

I don't really get why we couldn't get Marshall into that game. They were pretty undersized, it just felt like we didn't really get it to him in many marking positions. He seems to lack confidence to push forward and demand the footy.

The amount of times Marshall and De Koning fell short of the contest was concerning. While Darcy Fort kept busting his ass to take intercept marks deep in defence.

 

[LuckyBounce!]

That loss to Melbourne is going to haunt us all season as even Carlton is pumping them now