WAR CRIMES - Afghanistan * Ben Roberts Smith charged

[Kurve]

19 Nov 202011.13 AEDT

Brereton report finds alleged unlawful killing of 39 people.​

Justice Brereton considered in a detailed 57 allegations of incidents and issues.

Campbell says he found there to be “credible information to substantiate 23 incidents of alleged unlawful killing of 39 people by 25 Australian Special Forces personnel, predominantly from the Special Air Service Regiment”.

Link to Ben Roberts Smith defamation JUDGEMENT SUMMARY and FULL JUDGEMENT in pdf

 

[sherb]

I don't pretend to be across this at all, but I have read quite a lot of the comments on SM.

My favourite line from those who appear to be in the BRS camp towards people supporting this prosecution, by some way, is "well, you weren't there, were you?".

Well, no I wasn't. But neither was the commenter it's fair to assume. But who was there? The soldiers who testified against BRS.

I didn't get the logic on a broader scale either. If a random third party (with no association to the alleged crime at all) hasn't been to an alleged crime scene, that doesn't affect the potential guilt or innocence of the accused.

I mean I wasn't at My Lai either, nor was I present when Nazis committed their various war crimes but I'm pretty sure they both happened.

Nor does my "not being there" and therefore not understanding the pressures of battle justify potential war crimes either.

My point is, you see some bizarre logic in a case as emotional as this.

FWIW, my view is that there appears to be enough credible evidence (in the prosecution's view) to take it to trial, so let's do that and not pre-empt the outcome due to personal biases.

 

[schneebly111]

So no, 429A is not a magic shield. But equally, “there was no ambiguity, everyone knew everything at every moment” is not a particularly serious way to describe how these operations actually work either.

It was so “murky” and “ambiguous” in the field that BRS had the space and time to drag a farmer up a cliff, kick him off then order his execution did he?

 

[Run n Spread]

It was so “murky” and “ambiguous” in the field that BRS had the space and time to drag a farmer up a cliff, kick him off then order his execution did he?

This is part of the point.
This alledgedly happened in the village of Dawan in Afghanistan. Around that village there are no cliffs. So what did he kick him off? Maybe it doesn't matter in a civil trial (in that the witness can correct themselves) but in a criminal trial the case needs to be absolutely air tight and details exact. If there are 4 different stories and any correcting of what the victim was kicked off that testimony is useless
What did he kick him off if not a cliff than?
Or was the witness mistaken?
Stuff like that basically gifts reasonable doubt

 

[Run n Spread]

I don't pretend to be across this at all, but I have read quite a lot of the comments on SM.

My favourite line from those who appear to be in the BRS camp towards people supporting this prosecution, by some way, is "well, you weren't there, were you?".

Well, no I wasn't. But neither was the commenter it's fair to assume. But who was there? The soldiers who testified against BRS.

I didn't get the logic on a broader scale either. If a random third party (with no association to the alleged crime at all) hasn't been to an alleged crime scene, that doesn't affect the potential guilt or innocence of the accused.

I mean I wasn't at My Lai either, nor was I present when Nazis committed their various war crimes but I'm pretty sure they both happened.

Nor does my "not being there" and therefore not understanding the pressures of battle justify potential war crimes either.

My point is, you see some bizarre logic in a case as emotional as this.

FWIW, my view is that there appears to be enough credible evidence (in the prosecution's view) to take it to trial, so let's do that and not pre-empt the outcome due to personal biases.

That applies to any crime thou.
Nobody except the people there know exactly what happened. Judge jury lawyers public have no idea what exactly happened.
Its why reasonable doubt exists. We can speculate we can have strong opinions on what we think happened but if you want to take someone's life away you need hard incontrovertible facts beyond a reasonable doubt that can be proven.
This case attracted least from.my reading of it has more wholes in it than Swiss cheese and it actually appears the prosecution is shovelling so.much shit uphill it is a waste of time continuing the prosecution (unless it is for political reasons but that would never happen)

 

[Jameggins]

This alledgedly happened in the village of Dawan in Afghanistan. Around that village there are no cliffs. So what did he kick him off?

This keeps getting repeated. All of you BRS fans get your talking points from the same place and don't even bother to critically analyse them, don't you? The guy who was murdered lived in the mountains. The village was surrounded by them.

 

[ZEV]

Any former SAS soldiers who serve as witnesses against BRS will be discredited in a trial as soon as they take the stand. So you served in Afghanistan. Most likely suffer from PTSD so will automatically be unreliable witnesses.

How many of the SASR witnesses were kicked out of 3rd squadron and had their dreams ended by RS?
How many SASR witnesses claimed their LSW 'jammed' in the Chora Pass engagement?
How many of the SASR witnesses dispute RS' VC because they stepped out the distancce he traversed under fire and it was 42 metres not 50 metres....

 

[ZEV]

No.

Ben Roberts Smith’s wife left him after he cheated on her and abused her and threatened her to lie to make himself look good.

So much so that his ex wife, after 17 years of marriage, and his mistress had no problem telling the Federal Court what a prick he was. If that doesn’t tell you something then nothing will.

Why don't you have a chat with Person 4's ex-wife and ask her why she left him....

 

[ZEV]

This keeps getting repeated. All of you BRS fans get your talking points from the same place and don't even bother to critically analyse them, don't you? The guy who was murdered lived in the mountains. The village was surrounded by them.

Ali Jan lived a three hour walk away from the village in Baag.

The precise height of the “small rocky cliff” referred to in the Particulars of Truth was not established by the evidence.

 

[Run n Spread]

This keeps getting repeated. All of you BRS fans get your talking points from the same place and don't even bother to critically analyse them, don't you? The guy who was murdered lived in the mountains. The village was surrounded by them.

Its nothing like that.
There were no mountains

 

[Jameggins]

Its nothing like that.
There were no mountains

No mountains? Wherever you are getting your talking points from is lying to you.

'He was dead and there was a gun laying with him'

Three villagers ended up dead after a team of Australian soldiers descended on a small Afghan community. What happened that day is now the subject of a secretive high-level inquiry.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Run n Spread]

No mountains? Wherever you are getting your talking points from is lying to you.

'He was dead and there was a gun laying with him'

Three villagers ended up dead after a team of Australian soldiers descended on a small Afghan community. What happened that day is now the subject of a secretive high-level inquiry.

www.abc.net.au

Yep no.

 

[Lebbo73]

WTF is wrong with you people. Firstly, none of those things you mention have anything to do with the case. Secondly there is credible evidence he ordered prisoners executed. If he did, it is murder. It must be investigated and if he did the acts he is charge with he must be held to account.

SAS soldiers are tasked with going in an out without being detected. If a firefight ensues they’ve failed to achieve their mission effectively. Prisoners of war aren’t an option.

There’s most likely SAS soldiers in Iran right now assassinating the enemy quietly while we post. In an out without detection.

 

[Run n Spread]

SAS soldiers are tasked with going in an out without being detected. If a firefight ensues they’ve failed to achieve their mission effectively. Prisoners of war aren’t an option.

There’s most likely SAS soldiers in Iran right now assassinating the enemy quietly while we post. In an out without detection.

We created these people.
Why aren't the politicians in tge dock and facing charges themselves

 

[schneebly111]

How many of the SASR witnesses were kicked out of 3rd squadron and had their dreams ended by RS?

None because Person 1 was transferred to another Troop where he then excelled away from the negative influence of BRS

How many SASR witnesses claimed their LSW 'jammed' in the Chora Pass engagement?

Irrelevant to their credibility as a witness (person 1 won't be called as a murder case witness)

How many of the SASR witnesses dispute RS' VC because they stepped out the distancce he traversed under fire and it was 42 metres not 50 metres....

Person 4's account was backed up by 3 other soldiers and local Afghan witnesses gave the same story despite no collusion.

 

[schneebly111]

Ali Jan lived a three hour walk away from the village in Baag

He was in Darwan to buy flour to feed his family.

 

[schneebly111]

SAS soldiers are tasked with going in an out without being detected. If a firefight ensues they’ve failed to achieve their mission effectively. Prisoners of war aren’t an option.

There’s most likely SAS soldiers in Iran right now assassinating the enemy quietly while we post. In an out without detection.

It's hilarious to see so many special forces "experts" come out of the woodwork pulling "Facts" out of their ass..........

 

[schneebly111]

Its nothing like that.
There were no mountains

https://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/key-photos-of-cliff-kick-murder-village-revealed-in-ben-robertssmith-trial/news-story/d15f9e91dc1ecd23a088dfb3e93e0b74

Pictures of the cliff are clearly marked out. An individual being kicked with force to the front of the chest will fly backwards over about an 8m drop with no ability to protect themselves on landing, hence why Ali Jan was severely injured when it happened to him.

 

[Run n Spread]

https://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/key-photos-of-cliff-kick-murder-village-revealed-in-ben-robertssmith-trial/news-story/d15f9e91dc1ecd23a088dfb3e93e0b74

Pictures of the cliff are clearly marked out. An individual being kicked with force to the front of the chest will fly backwards over about an 8m drop with no ability to protect themselves on landing, hence why Ali Jan was severely injured when it happened to him.

8m is not a cliff.
Severely injured is not death.
This whole prosecution seems to be its about there its an absolute joke.
Beyond reasonable doubt surely means something in this country.
We are not Afghanistan we are Australia.
The rule of law matters.
This prosecution is a joke.

 

[Lebbo73]

8m is not a cliff.
Severely injured is not death.
This whole prosecution seems to be its about there its an absolute joke.
Beyond reasonable doubt surely means something in this country.
We are not Afghanistan we are Australia.
The rule of law matters.
This prosecution is a joke.

Don’t tell them that all their superiors have been granted immunity from any potential war crimes!

 

[sherb]

SAS soldiers are tasked with going in an out without being detected. If a firefight ensues they’ve failed to achieve their mission effectively. Prisoners of war aren’t an option.

There’s most likely SAS soldiers in Iran right now assassinating the enemy quietly while we post. In an out without detection.

So just exterminate them?

 

[Run n Spread]

Don’t tell them that all their superiors have been granted immunity from any potential war crimes!

Funny that.
Well that's bullshit no one should be getting immunity.
The rule of law should apply to all. Including those who sent them to war in the first place

 

[Run n Spread]

You’re mixing two things up.
The rumour is she was a honey trap from the media. Not the police prosecution.
She is of no evidentiary value to this prosecution anyway. Her value was in the civil stream with a view of introducing prejudicial evidence of bad character about punching her in the head.

In a criminal trial. Any prejudicial evidence cannot be introduced unless it’s tendency and coincidence.

And BTW - police use under cover operatives every day, female operatives are the best..I’m not saying they sleep with their intended targets (they used to) but it’d still lawful honey trapping

I know. Its as dodgy as **** but the(victorian) courts ruled that a ok so I guess play on

 

[Run n Spread]

Don’t tell them that all their superiors have been granted immunity from any potential war crimes!

Surely he has an even quarter competent defence lawyer.
How honestly has the case even made it this far? Its a joke

 

[Run n Spread]

This keeps getting repeated. All of you BRS fans get your talking points from the same place and don't even bother to critically analyse them, don't you? The guy who was murdered lived in the mountains. The village was surrounded by them.

So answer the question then.
Where was he kicked off? In what circumstance? In what time?
Was it a cliff?
Why was it said it was a cliff then?
Im not actually a BRS fan but this ridiculous lets chuck everyone in gaol bullshit needs to stop.
Our whole country has spent 300 million trying to prosecute this guy when randoms like me can literally poke 10 holes in this case without breaking a sweat.
Makes me think something else is dodgy

 

[Jameggins]

So answer the question then.
Where was he kicked off? In what circumstance? In what time?
Was it a cliff?
Why was it said it was a cliff then?
Im not actually a BRS fan but this ridiculous lets chuck everyone in gaol bullshit needs to stop.
Our whole country has spent 300 million trying to prosecute this guy when randoms like me can literally poke 10 holes in this case without breaking a sweat.
Makes me think something else is dodgy

Ah you are a Pauline Hanson voter. Yep you're not worth any effort, because all you will do is post her bullshit lies no matter how easily proven wrong they are.