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List Mgmt. 2026 List Management

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teddy-hopkins said:
Is it just me or is Austin's stock rising at an amazing rate since he got the sack.

Cowan was pick 30
Wilson 34
Carroll rookie
HOF 40
Byrne 45
Ison 47

Still a lot of water to go under the bridge but nailing mid-late picks - we've always been the worst in the AFL.
Click to expand...
Have we been the worst? Not many sides do consistently nail them. Very few in fact.

For reference Betts was a rookie pick and Fev was a late pick too, 2 HoF level players taken very late relatively close together. Ed Curnow was a rookie pick, Carrazzo a rookie pick

I think in recent history sure we haven't been great, but I don't think we've always been the worst. Basically it was under SOS we were rubbish at it and aside from that probably about on par with the league average.
 
Coops93 said:
Have we been the worst? Not many sides do consistently nail them. Very few in fact.

For reference Betts was a rookie pick and Fev was a late pick too, 2 HoF level players taken very late relatively close together. Ed Curnow was a rookie pick, Carrazzo a rookie pick

I think in recent history sure we haven't been great, but I don't think we've always been the worst. Basically it was under SOS we were rubbish at it and aside from that probably about on par with the league average.
Click to expand...

Yeah we've been beyond bad for the entire AFL era compared to almost any other club - those few exceptions aside. Austin was way better than sos.

Under Austin:

Durdin 37
Jack Carroll 41
Parks rookie
Jesse Motlop 27
Cottrell rookie
Cowan 30
Binns 32
Lemmey 47
Moir 29
Wilson 34
Matt Carroll rookie
O'Farrell 40
Ben Camporeale 43
Lucas Camporeale 54
Charleson rookie
Byrne 45
Ison 47

Binns, Parks and Lemmey the only obvious fails. Even Jack Carroll and Durdin are still playing reasonable footy at AFL level.
 
teddy-hopkins said:
Yeah we've been beyond bad for the entire AFL era compared to almost any other club - those few exceptions aside. Austin was way better than sos.

Under Austin:

Durdin 37
Jack Carroll 41
Parks rookie
Jesse Motlop 27
Cottrell rookie
Cowan 30
Binns 32
Lemmey 47
Moir 29
Wilson 34
Matt Carroll rookie
O'Farrell 40
Ben Camporeale 43
Lucas Camporeale 54
Charleson rookie
Byrne 45
Ison 47

Binns, Parks and Lemmey the only obvious fails. Even Jack Carroll and Durdin are still playing reasonable footy at AFL level.
Click to expand...
I hope the club end up with egg on our face because that’ll mean a fair few of those guys have come good.
 

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Coops93 said:
For reference Betts was a rookie pick and Fev was a late pick too, 2 HoF level players taken very late relatively close together. Ed Curnow was a rookie pick, Carrazzo a rookie pick
Click to expand...
Annual reminder that Fevola was drafted a a year before his normal eligibility under an old rule that permitted one such selection for each club in each draft.

Curnow (Adelaide) and Carrazzo (Geelong) were recycled players in the era before delisted free agency and SSP.
 
teddy-hopkins said:
Is it just me or is Austin's stock rising at an amazing rate since he got the sack.
Click to expand...
Some of us thought he had done pretty well in this area before he got the sack…
teddy-hopkins said:
Yeah we've been beyond bad for the entire AFL era compared to almost any other club - those few exceptions aside. Austin was way better than sos.

Under Austin:

Durdin 37
Jack Carroll 41
Parks rookie
Jesse Motlop 27
Cottrell rookie
Cowan 30
Binns 32
Lemmey 47
Moir 29
Wilson 34
Matt Carroll rookie
O'Farrell 40
Ben Camporeale 43
Lucas Camporeale 54
Charleson rookie
Byrne 45
Ison 47

Binns, Parks and Lemmey the only obvious fails. Even Jack Carroll and Durdin are still playing reasonable footy at AFL level.
Click to expand...
Also some pretty good acquisitions under other mechanisms too. Lord and Flynn Young through the mid season draft. Frankie as an SSP. Haynes and Hewett as free agents. Even though cincotta was delisted, he was a good pickup at the time. Plenty of fails you could point at too, but you don’t expect a high strike rate from these types of picks.Whether it’s fair or not, it seems like a lot of people marked his cards because of the big swings.

High picks used for Cerra and Saad. The trade up for Jagga, matching the bid on Dean. I think the first two were a bit high, the probably look bad because of injuries. The last two are far too early to tell, but I think they are looking pretty good.

And I think that people judged him for the perceived big contracts. Williams doesn’t look great in hindsight. But most of the big contracts were to retain players. I can imagine the melts if we let any of the big 5 walk like we did TDK when their contracts were up. Others that look bad (McGovern, Martin) were SOS deals. People think Cerra and Pitto were too long, but they were low money in the scheme of things. Injury has played a big part in making contracts look bad too - if Williams, Martin, McGovern and Cerra hadn’t missed so much footy, the contracts would look a lot better.

Ultimately, despite whatever positives i see in all that, we missed our window. Was it the list or was it the coaching, the development, the culture… we can endlessly speculate, but we will never really know, it’s likely a bit of everything.

Across the last two years we will have turned over the president, ceo, footy manager, national recruiting manager, list manager, head coach, most of the assistants, and probably close to half the list. Here’s hoping it clicks for the new team.
 
dangertroy said:
Some of us thought he had done pretty well in this area before he got the sack…

Also some pretty good acquisitions under other mechanisms too. Lord and Flynn Young through the mid season draft. Frankie as an SSP. Haynes and Hewett as free agents. Even though cincotta was delisted, he was a good pickup at the time. Plenty of fails you could point at too, but you don’t expect a high strike rate from these types of picks.Whether it’s fair or not, it seems like a lot of people marked his cards because of the big swings.

High picks used for Cerra and Saad. The trade up for Jagga, matching the bid on Dean. I think the first two were a bit high, the probably look bad because of injuries. The last two are far too early to tell, but I think they are looking pretty good.

And I think that people judged him for the perceived big contracts. Williams doesn’t look great in hindsight. But most of the big contracts were to retain players. I can imagine the melts if we let any of the big 5 walk like we did TDK when their contracts were up. Others that look bad (McGovern, Martin) were SOS deals. People think Cerra and Pitto were too long, but they were low money in the scheme of things. Injury has played a big part in making contracts look bad too - if Williams, Martin, McGovern and Cerra hadn’t missed so much footy, the contracts would look a lot better.

Ultimately, despite whatever positives i see in all that, we missed our window. Was it the list or was it the coaching, the development, the culture… we can endlessly speculate, but we will never really know, it’s likely a bit of everything.

Across the last two years we will have turned over the president, ceo, footy manager, national recruiting manager, list manager, head coach, most of the assistants, and probably close to half the list. Here’s hoping it clicks for the new team.
Click to expand...

With a little bit of hindsight I think Austin had some selections that could have been better but which list manager doesn't?

I think we missed our window mostly because the AFL is extremely even and any slight chink in your organization gets exposed eventually. For us that was the senior coach and the fitness staff. I don't think there can be too much doubt about that right now. 2024 was year to win a premiership and we looked on track for a while but couldn't sustain it because Voss wasn't up to it and we couldn't keep our players on the park anyway.

Cerra, Saad and Williams were serviceable more than great but we had enough quality on the list for a run in the top 4 though I doubt we had the disposal skill across the team to win a premiership.

I actually think we still have the quality on the list for a long run in the top 8 - especially if we nail a couple of mature KPPs.
 
teddy-hopkins said:
With a little bit of hindsight I think Austin had some selections that could have been better but which list manager doesn't?

I think we missed our window mostly because the AFL is extremely even and any slight chink in your organization gets exposed eventually. For us that was the senior coach and the fitness staff. I don't think there can be too much doubt about that right now. 2024 was year to win a premiership and we looked on track for a while but couldn't sustain it because Voss wasn't up to it and we couldn't keep our players on the park anyway.

Cerra, Saad and Williams were serviceable more than great but we had enough quality on the list for a run in the top 4 though I doubt we had the disposal skill across the team to win a premiership.

I actually think we still have the quality on the list for a long run in the top 8 - especially if we nail a couple of mature KPPs.
Click to expand...
For what it’s worth, Teddy, I think the SEN interview with Davies in the last fortnight provides insight on why Austin was let go. CD talks about what he is looking for in a list manager. I can’t remember exact words, but he basically talks about how recruiters don’t always become good list managers because they need to manage contracts, etc. He discusses how list management is basically a different skill set to recruitment.

I took from the conversation that they weren’t concerned with Austin’s abilities in terms of drafting. But they did hold doubts over his abilities in actual list management. Please note he never actually mentioned Austin, so there is some inference here.
 
HavUEvaSeenTheRain said:
I hope the club end up with egg on our face because that’ll mean a fair few of those guys have come good.
Click to expand...
How many of those were Austin vs Agresta? List Management got him sacked - ie ridiculous contracts - rather than nailing draft picks.
 
tarczonandjane said:
For what it’s worth, Teddy, I think the SEN interview with Davies in the last fortnight provides insight on why Austin was let go. CD talks about what he is looking for in a list manager. I can’t remember exact words, but he basically talks about how recruiters don’t always become good list managers because they need to manage contracts, etc. He discusses how list management is basically a different skill set to recruitment.

I took from the conversation that they weren’t concerned with Austin’s abilities in terms of drafting. But they did hold doubts over his abilities in actual list management. Please note he never actually mentioned Austin, so there is some inference here.
Click to expand...
Good point.

Not sure that's how it operates in reality at most clubs but if that's his plan at least it's clear.
 
Fevolution! said:
How much credit should Austin get for the selections? Genuine question, I’ve never been sure on this point. Does the list manager identify the talent?
Every decision would funnel through him, but I’m curious as to how involved a list manager is in talent identification.
Click to expand...

LM is accountable for all.

Our at least that's the case historically.
 
Fevolution! said:
How much credit should Austin get for the selections? Genuine question, I’ve never been sure on this point. Does the list manager identify the talent?
Every decision would funnel through him, but I’m curious as to how involved a list manager is in talent identification.
Click to expand...
Great question.

IMO and it's only how I believe it operates.

A list manager is in charge of balancing the list, ie. have the right number of rucks, KP players, midfielders - both developing and seniors. He also looks after contracts and salary cap. I feel GW identified issues with the latter part of the role.

Recruiting team identify young talent, predominately via the draft. A lot of the time, their role is governed by coach and list managers requirements, i.e. coach wants a type of player to balance the 23, inside mid, small forward, ruck, etc. This is where drafting the 'best available at a certain pick' sometimes makes recruitment teams look inadequate. IMO, every team's top 30 picks should always be best available. Later picks should be mostly for list balancing.

The Process:
Looking forward, the recruitment team identifies and highlights type of players available in the next 2 or 3 drafts against needs. The list manager balances the current list and identify what he needs to cover for the immediate and future years with that information.
The complete team including coach would also now identify players to trade for and who is required for immediate impact and game execution.

It's not a simple process, with some having difference of opinion and requirements, but at the end, everyone needs to be on the same page, especially when you are building a list over a period of time - 2 to 3 years. I'm also a firm believer the list manager should have the final say on the type of players recruited, as he is looking at the complete list build and balance over a short to long period of time.

M2C
 

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DangerousD said:
I’m not claiming it’s not a high price and it’s very frustrating but we paid a similar price for Smith points wise, going off a bid at 1 with us holding 7 and 17.

Finishing the season in 10th is another unrealistic assessment, for us to finish in 10th, we’d have to win at least 7-8 out of our last 11 and rely on 5 teams above us only winning 5-6.
Click to expand...
Agree, it looks unlikely to make the 10. Nevertheless, if we maintain form (which is the biggest issue), the current forecast is 12 wins to make the 10, only 4 of our last 11 games are against teams currently higher than 10th. Plus most games are in Melbourne, so it's certainly not impossible.
 
BlueTongue said:
How many of those were Austin vs Agresta? List Management got him sacked - ie ridiculous contracts - rather than nailing draft picks.
Click to expand...
I hope very little. Although we have been overly generous we haven’t struggled for list spots, lost anyone we imo should’ve kept because of money and I don’t think we have any salary cap pressure (probably the opposite)
 
Doing a little bit of the Ol' List Analysis to figure out what sort of draft prospects I should be watching.

Players who will be over 30 and out of contract before 2029:

Nick Haynes
Nic Newman
Adam Saad
Zac Williams
Mitch McGovern
Patrick Cripps
Blake Acres
George Hewett
Marc Pittonet
Jordan Boyd
Lewis Young
Lachlan Fogarty

So

2/3 KPD's
3 Gen Defenders
2 inside midfielders
1 winger
2 small forward
0/1 KPF
1 ruck

Key position defenders are less of a concern with O'Farrell and Dean coming on nicely, and Weitering contracted until 2031. You expect this would be addressed with a mature age rookie for depth or keeping Derksen.

Gen Defenders has Cowan, Wilson and Charleson, but we need extra depth here.

Inside mids has Lord, B.Campo out of the team at the moment. The impending arrival of Cody makes this less a priority.

On the wing, Matt Carroll, Ollie Hollands with Chesser and L. Campo is fair cover. Low on my priority list.

Small forwards is still a concern. Byrne, Motlop, Evans are all going to still be around, but it would be worthwhile keeping an eye for bargain prospects.

Ruck probably needs a developing prospect beyond Riley. If O'Keefe is not looking like staying on the list beyond this year a key forward/ruck prospect is worth pursuing. Wouldn't mind spending a higher pick in the next two years on a good key forward prospect.

With Walker the priority this year, I would be looking next at key forwards and general defenders for the mid-range picks. Small forward prospect in the late/rookie range.
 
Blue and Silver said:
Doing a little bit of the Ol' List Analysis to figure out what sort of draft prospects I should be watching.

Players who will be over 30 and out of contract before 2029:

Nick Haynes
Nic Newman
Adam Saad
Zac Williams
Mitch McGovern
Patrick Cripps
Blake Acres
George Hewett
Marc Pittonet
Jordan Boyd
Lewis Young
Lachlan Fogarty

So

2/3 KPD's
3 Gen Defenders
2 inside midfielders
1 winger
2 small forward
0/1 KPF
1 ruck

Key position defenders are less of a concern with O'Farrell and Dean coming on nicely, and Weitering contracted until 2031. You expect this would be addressed with a mature age rookie for depth or keeping Derksen.

Gen Defenders has Cowan, Wilson and Charleson, but we need extra depth here.

Inside mids has Lord, B.Campo out of the team at the moment. The impending arrival of Cody makes this less a priority.

On the wing, Matt Carroll, Ollie Hollands with Chesser and L. Campo is fair cover. Low on my priority list.

Small forwards is still a concern. Byrne, Motlop, Evans are all going to still be around, but it would be worthwhile keeping an eye for bargain prospects.

Ruck probably needs a developing prospect beyond Riley. If O'Keefe is not looking like staying on the list beyond this year a key forward/ruck prospect is worth pursuing. Wouldn't mind spending a higher pick in the next two years on a good key forward prospect.

With Walker the priority this year, I would be looking next at key forwards and general defenders for the mid-range picks. Small forward prospect in the late/rookie range.
Click to expand...
Pretty reasonable analysis, here's the thing, not every hole in a list can realistically be drafted for. Due to the vagaries of the draft it may just be a decent prospect is not around where we happen to have a pick, and I don't believe you should ever draft a player you don't think can make it regardless of a list need.

Filling a list to be a genuine premiership contender requires astute trading and free agency targeting. This is an important part of our problem, we need to climb the ladder into the 8 to become an attractive target for those finishing touches.
 
Blue and Silver said:
Doing a little bit of the Ol' List Analysis to figure out what sort of draft prospects I should be watching.

Players who will be over 30 and out of contract before 2029:

Nick Haynes
Nic Newman
Adam Saad
Zac Williams
Mitch McGovern
Patrick Cripps
Blake Acres
George Hewett
Marc Pittonet
Jordan Boyd
Lewis Young
Lachlan Fogarty

So

2/3 KPD's
3 Gen Defenders
2 inside midfielders
1 winger
2 small forward
0/1 KPF
1 ruck

Key position defenders are less of a concern with O'Farrell and Dean coming on nicely, and Weitering contracted until 2031. You expect this would be addressed with a mature age rookie for depth or keeping Derksen.

Gen Defenders has Cowan, Wilson and Charleson, but we need extra depth here.

Inside mids has Lord, B.Campo out of the team at the moment. The impending arrival of Cody makes this less a priority.

On the wing, Matt Carroll, Ollie Hollands with Chesser and L. Campo is fair cover. Low on my priority list.

Small forwards is still a concern. Byrne, Motlop, Evans are all going to still be around, but it would be worthwhile keeping an eye for bargain prospects.

Ruck probably needs a developing prospect beyond Riley. If O'Keefe is not looking like staying on the list beyond this year a key forward/ruck prospect is worth pursuing. Wouldn't mind spending a higher pick in the next two years on a good key forward prospect.

With Walker the priority this year, I would be looking next at key forwards and general defenders for the mid-range picks. Small forward prospect in the late/rookie range.
Click to expand...
Funny you are posting this, ive actually been tracking something similar and was going to post today.
Glad we came to the same conslusions mostly.
Going off the over 30s i came up with needing 2 HBs (Or General defenders) a KF, and 2 Mids.

I wasnt as concerned about the small forward position but can definitely see the need for an extra.
 
dangertroy said:
Some of us thought he had done pretty well in this area before he got the sack…

Also some pretty good acquisitions under other mechanisms too. Lord and Flynn Young through the mid season draft. Frankie as an SSP. Haynes and Hewett as free agents. Even though cincotta was delisted, he was a good pickup at the time. Plenty of fails you could point at too, but you don’t expect a high strike rate from these types of picks.Whether it’s fair or not, it seems like a lot of people marked his cards because of the big swings.

High picks used for Cerra and Saad. The trade up for Jagga, matching the bid on Dean. I think the first two were a bit high, the probably look bad because of injuries. The last two are far too early to tell, but I think they are looking pretty good.

And I think that people judged him for the perceived big contracts. Williams doesn’t look great in hindsight. But most of the big contracts were to retain players. I can imagine the melts if we let any of the big 5 walk like we did TDK when their contracts were up. Others that look bad (McGovern, Martin) were SOS deals. People think Cerra and Pitto were too long, but they were low money in the scheme of things. Injury has played a big part in making contracts look bad too - if Williams, Martin, McGovern and Cerra hadn’t missed so much footy, the contracts would look a lot better.

Ultimately, despite whatever positives i see in all that, we missed our window. Was it the list or was it the coaching, the development, the culture… we can endlessly speculate, but we will never really know, it’s likely a bit of everything.

Across the last two years we will have turned over the president, ceo, footy manager, national recruiting manager, list manager, head coach, most of the assistants, and probably close to half the list. Here’s hoping it clicks for the new team.
Click to expand...
Also the fitness department overhaul.
 

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Espio said:
Pretty reasonable analysis, here's the thing, not every hole in a list can realistically be drafted for. Due to the vagaries of the draft it may just be a decent prospect is not around where we happen to have a pick, and I don't believe you should ever draft a player you don't think can make it regardless of a list need.

Filling a list to be a genuine premiership contender requires astute trading and free agency targeting. This is an important part of our problem, we need to climb the ladder into the 8 to become an attractive target for those finishing touches.
Click to expand...

I understand, the purpose was to help me identify which sort of draftees I want to look at.

I think that at the moment, priority 1 is securing Cody who shapes as the best mid prospect in the Draft.

After that trading will be driven by the new coach's vision of the game plan, which is hard to know.

Longer range list projection is a bit clearer because it's unlikely a 37 year old Nick Haynes is still playing, so you know you need to look at that sort of role etc.
 
Blue and Silver said:
I understand, the purpose was to help me identify which sort of draftees I want to look at.

I think that at the moment, priority 1 is securing Cody who shapes as the best mid prospect in the Draft.

After that trading will be driven by the new coach's vision of the game plan, which is hard to know.

Longer range list projection is a bit clearer because it's unlikely a 37 year old Nick Haynes is still playing, so you know you need to look at that sort of role etc.
Click to expand...
My apologies, legitimately meant no disrespect of your post, more so to point out in general that we will not build a complete list via the draft. We need to utilise all the tools well.

I do have faith in the management team to complete that task.
 
Espio said:
My apologies, legitimately meant no disrespect of your post, more so to point out in general that we will not build a complete list via the draft. We need to utilise all the tools well.

I do have faith in the management team to complete that task.
Click to expand...

All good, just clarifying my purpose
 
How many times has the argument at draft time been about "need" vs "Talent".
Just a couple of examples: Holland,O and Binns, J were needs. Holland, E and Moir, A were talent. Obviously, there are other examples of this.
In recent seasons we now have to factor in FS into that mix.
So our new list manager has to be a juggler, client manager, sales manager, negotiator and forecaster.
 
BluStreak said:
How many times has the argument at draft time been about "need" vs "Talent".
Just a couple of examples: Holland,O and Binns, J were needs. Holland, E and Moir, A were talent. Obviously, there are other examples of this.
In recent seasons we now have to factor in FS into that mix.
So our new list manager has to be a juggler, client manager, sales manager, negotiator and forecaster.
Click to expand...
Just as a side note, i read an article last week and this line stood out, was interviewing a list manager and the question was asked about need (position) vs best available (i.e. talent). and his answer was generally in the 1st round he drafts need but the need is talent. Interesting way of answering the question and a little glimpse into the mind of a LM
 

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