Opinion Building Nicely

[TigerImposter]

I've heard and read different formats to this OP since we made the finals under Spud,but until I see it happening before my own two eyes I'm not holding my breath in hope.
We have a list with two many deficiencies and our maintaining of hardness or intensity over 120min is the issue. Yes a promising young list,but guys like Chaplin Griggs and Houli Are limiting our development of young talent and based on team selection Hardwick isn't looking at our future ,but his.
Seriously has Hardwicks tactical skills improved in the box since the EF last year???
North 3Q was a good reminder as we coughed up a 6 goal lead in 10 minutes.
His sidekicks look clueless also ,so unless we make some big trades,force retirements ,pick wisely and get Hardwick some proper assistants i cannot see us improving to any great heights
Guys I hope I'm full of shxt ,but our senior players on our list worry me and these are the players good teams rely on to being good teams
Leadership Leadership and more Leadership please. Gone missing for too long IMO and without it forget about consistently making finals.

 

[DrMike]

????? never said he should be playing... I said it was stupid not opening a spot for him.... I was making the point that its stupid that we dont have the option if we need it. Just as stupid as having Miles sit out half the season whilst Maric didnt play until round 9....

I'm saying you're looking at things in hindsight, which clubs don't have the magical power to do.

And yes, I am saying Darrou may not want to be selected to the senior list, however from everything I have seen and heard, he is good enough to be.

 

[nut]

I'm saying you're looking at things in hindsight, which clubs don't have the magical power to do.

And yes, I am saying Darrou may not want to be selected to the senior list, however from everything I have seen and heard, he is good enough to be.

I watched him this season and I dont think he'll be a KP defender.... and doesnt have the tricks to be a HBF/BP player...... still trying to work out why anyone in theor right mind would not want to play thier first AFL game????? stop trolling me.

 

[DrMike]

I watched him this season and I dont think he'll be a KP defender.... and doesnt have the tricks to be a HBF/BP player...... still trying to work out why anyone in theor right mind would not want to play thier first AFL game????? stop trolling me.

Maybe you just answered your own question?

Forget I said anything

 

[sante]

I'm saying you're looking at things in hindsight, which clubs don't have the magical power to do.

And yes, I am saying Darrou may not want to be selected to the senior list, however from everything I have seen and heard, he is good enough to be.

What do you mean he doesn't want to be?

 

[theflea]

You can...

Astbury, Rance, Grimes

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Chaplin

Well if you want chappy out then he stays!!

 

[theflea]

When King went into the LTI and we lost Astbury he could have got upgraded.... we still have a spot on the LTI if we want to use him now dont we?

Miles was upgraded for the King LTI and Astbury wasn't placed on the LTI. If King doesn't come back, we may have room to upgrade Darrou via the rd 11 rookie upgrade allowance, which we haven't triggered yet. This was held over in case King came back and we had to send Miles back to the VFL. I think this was the thinking why we haven't used the rd 11 upgrade yet. I also think there is expiry date to placing players on LTI's and I think it might be 8 rounds left.

 

[WATiger86]

This is more about bringing a little bit of perspective/hope to the place after what has been a frustrating and dark 2014 season.

Nice analysis mate, but essentially the list is in the same position this year and we've crashed and burned! The Gold Coast, Bulldogs and Melbourne games are the only games we have dropped that I truly expected us to win. Outside that we’ve dropped a close one against the cats and pretty much performed to the level of last season. I’m not sure natural development is going to take us to where we want to go.

But all clouds have silver linings, I’m happy we’ve managed to get Batch and Dea back in the side, and the emergence of Astbury and Miles as best 22 players – the games they have all played this season will hold us in good stead going forward.

 

[nut]

Miles was upgraded for the King LTI and Astbury wasn't placed on the LTI. If King doesn't come back, we may have room to upgrade Darrou via the rd 11 rookie upgrade allowance, which we haven't triggered yet. This was held over in case King came back and we had to send Miles back to the VFL. I think this was the thinking why we haven't used the rd 11 upgrade yet. I also think there is expiry date to placing players on LTI's and I think it might be 8 rounds left.

I'm assuming we can swap Miles onto the round 11 upograde which means Darou can go onto the King spot..... anyhow the kid doesnt deserve a spot anyhow at the moment. But a Grimes Hammy would.....

 

[nut]

What do you mean he doesn't want to be?

I think he trying to tell us that a kid who has trained and busted his guts to have his AFL dream is happy just to play VFL and may of asked not to get picked in the seniors squad.... Its probably the stupist think I have read on Bigfooty... If thats truly the case and he has said that I doubt we would let him play VFL... he would be out the door.

 

[DrMike]

What do you mean he doesn't want to be?

I think he trying to tell us that a kid who has trained and busted his guts to have his AFL dream is happy just to play VFL and may of asked not to get picked in the seniors squad.... Its probably the stupist think I have read on Bigfooty... If thats truly the case and he has said that I doubt we would let him play VFL... he would be out the door.

Forget I said anything, stupidest thing on bigfooty as nut said

 

[_RT_]

Imo you cant play Grimes with Astbury in the side, as we need more run so maybe replace him with a quick runner ie Pickett in this years draft?

I believe you can given that Astbury plays as a gorilla type KPD and Grimes has the ability to play on small/medium forwards. I see Grimes as someone who could play a Mackie type role for us. In fact if you look at the group that I've put up and compare it to what Geelong goes to it is very similar. Solid no nonsense defenders who do their jobs well. I believe we could achieve something similar with this group if we continue to develop them in the roles.

Still too many players lacking quality in that side to be top 4 imo.
Morris, Chaplin, Batchelor, Dea, Vickery, McDonough, Edwards, Jackson, Miles, Petterd all have question marks over them for one reason or another.

Put them in a side where they have defined roles and ask them to be role players rather than stars and they are good enough to make us a competitive side. Remember a number of them were part of the side that took us to finals last year. The ones that weren't part of that i.e. Dea McDonough Miles & Batchelor allow us to play our better players in other roles that better suit the side moving forward. Miles comes in Cotchin doesn't have to play the extractor role and can get more outside ball and can become more of a threat. That also means that Martins role changes and he is able to have a greater impact on games, same goes for Deledio Ellis & Conca as well. Batchelor & Dea coming in means that Vlastuin is allowed to play in the midfield and continue his development.

You see no side is full of A graders, but you get the mix right with some quality role players to support the stars that you do have and get some consistent performances week to week and you can go from being a struggler to a finals contender very quickly. Lets not forget that all of this is without going through the drafts and trading period at the end of the year, which should allow us to strengthen the list again. It might mean that some of those that you say aren't quality are replaced by someone who is of better quality.

 

[_RT_]

What do you mean he doesn't want to be?

I have heard that he feels that his game isn't ready for the step up to playing at the AFL level. To put it another way, the kid knows that he is a good player, but he wants to make sure that his game is AFL ready before he gets the call up. It takes a lot of guts to knock back the chance to be elevated to the senior list and I don't mind that the kid has said that he wants to wait. I'd rather have that happen than have someone who isn't ready putting their hands up. Having watched Darrou a number of times this year I do believe he has what it takes to be a very good 3rd tall at the next level, but given he is only 21 he has time on his side to take the next step. I wouldn't mind him being elevated onto the senior list at seasons end as an elevated rookie and give him another 2 years to develop his game a bit more. As I said above I believe this kid can become a very good 3rd tall defender, he knows how to defend, he can and does use the ball very well when setting up rebound out of D50 and also has some real leadership qualities about him, not just in asking to be overlooked for elevation to the senior list, but also in the way he organises the back line at VFL level. For a 20 year old kid that is impressive.

 

[nut]

I have heard that he feels that his game isn't ready for the step up to playing at the AFL level. To put it another way, the kid knows that he is a good player, but he wants to make sure that his game is AFL ready before he gets the call up. It takes a lot of guts to knock back the chance to be elevated to the senior list and I don't mind that the kid has said that he wants to wait. I'd rather have that happen than have someone who isn't ready putting their hands up. Having watched Darrou a number of times this year I do believe he has what it takes to be a very good 3rd tall at the next level, but given he is only 21 he has time on his side to take the next step. I wouldn't mind him being elevated onto the senior list at seasons end as an elevated rookie and give him another 2 years to develop his game a bit more. As I said above I believe this kid can become a very good 3rd tall defender, he knows how to defend, he can and does use the ball very well when setting up rebound out of D50 and also has some real leadership qualities about him, not just in asking to be overlooked for elevation to the senior list, but also in the way he organises the back line at VFL level. For a 20 year old kid that is impressive.

If this is the case than it say more about our football department than it does Darou.... The fact that Darou doesnt trust the football department in making a call on his readiness is and has taken steps to make sure he doesnt get a call up is a pretty poor reflection on the clubs decision making.

Personally I'd show him the door if he came to me and asked not to get picked......

 

[_RT_]

If this is the case than it say more about our football department than it does Darou.... The fact that Darou doesnt trust the football department in making a call on his readiness is and has taken steps to make sure he doesnt get a call up is a pretty poor reflection on the clubs decision making.

Personally I'd show him the door if he came to me and asked not to get picked......

So a kid, lets not forget he is still only 20, who is a still just a rookie, tells the club that he feels that his game isn't ready for AFL and asks not to be elevated and yet somehow it is the clubs fault. Look I know you're not happy with the way things are going at the club this year but to put the blame on them for him asking to not be elevated is a stretch.

As I said, I'd much rather a kid who felt he needed more development say to the club I'm not ready than have us waste time elevating him and not giving someone else a chance. The kid has plenty of time on his side and elevating him to the senior list at the end of this year based on what he has shown the last couple of years would be a smart move. We get a kid with 3 years of development already put into him, who has shown some talent and leadership for a pick in the last 2 rounds of the draft.

 

[theflea]

I'm assuming we can swap Miles onto the round 11 upograde which means Darou can go onto the King spot..... anyhow the kid doesnt deserve a spot anyhow at the moment. But a Grimes Hammy would.....

No I don't think you can swap upgrades once they are locked to a player. The only reason why we could swap Miles to the rd 11 upgrade is that isn't assigned yet. RFC_Official ?

 

[theflea]

I believe you can given that Astbury plays as a gorilla type KPD and Grimes has the ability to play on small/medium forwards. I see Grimes as someone who could play a Mackie type role for us. In fact if you look at the group that I've put up and compare it to what Geelong goes to it is very similar. Solid no nonsense defenders who do their jobs well. I believe we could achieve something similar with this group if we continue to develop them in the roles.


Put them in a side where they have defined roles and ask them to be role players rather than stars and they are good enough to make us a competitive side. Remember a number of them were part of the side that took us to finals last year. The ones that weren't part of that i.e. Dea McDonough Miles & Batchelor allow us to play our better players in other roles that better suit the side moving forward. Miles comes in Cotchin doesn't have to play the extractor role and can get more outside ball and can become more of a threat. That also means that Martins role changes and he is able to have a greater impact on games, same goes for Deledio Ellis & Conca as well. Batchelor & Dea coming in means that Vlastuin is allowed to play in the midfield and continue his development.

You see no side is full of A graders, but you get the mix right with some quality role players to support the stars that you do have and get some consistent performances week to week and you can go from being a struggler to a finals contender very quickly. Lets not forget that all of this is without going through the drafts and trading period at the end of the year, which should allow us to strengthen the list again. It might mean that some of those that you say aren't quality are replaced by someone who is of better quality.

The only reason why I said he cant play in 'that' team was you had 4 193cm defenders in the 1 team( if I read it right) and would lack run.

 

[_RT_]

The only reason why I said he cant play in 'that' team was you had 4 193cm defenders in the 1 team( if I read it right) and would lack run.

As I said in my reply, Grimes and Astbury play totally different roles. Grimes Rance Dea & Batchelor can all provide some run out of the back line and I'm of the opinion that their ability by foot, well most of the time with Rance, can make up for the lack of genuine leg speed. As I said quick accurate ball movement will always beat leg speed as the ball travels faster than a player does.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Great thread _RT_ and definitely agree with you that despite having a poor 2014, there is still a lot to like about the future of our list. In previous 'failed' rebuilds, we'd had an average and ageing list that couldn't cut the mustard. This time, if we do need to do a bit of a mini rebuild, the vast majority of the list still has its best years ahead of it.

Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Miles, Ellis, Conca, Vlastuin, Rance, Astbury, Riewoldt and in time, Lennon look like they are all/can become A grade players in a good team.

Vickery, Griffiths, Dea, Batchelor, Morris, Houli, McDonough, Lloyd, Grimes could all realistically become good role players for us in time.

McBean and Darrou have impressed in the VFL side over the last few years and could be others who can come in and add to the young group we have for the future. Others like O'Hanlon, Elton, Arnot and Gordon all have a bit of time on their side to throw their hands up as well. Throw in potentially another top 10 pick this year and there isn't a shortage of young talent on our list.

If anything, maybe a mini cleanout/rebuild is needed but certainly, there are good pieces to build on for 2015 and beyond.

 

[theflea]

As I said in my reply, Grimes and Astbury play totally different roles. Grimes Rance Dea & Batchelor can all provide some run out of the back line and I'm of the opinion that their ability by foot, well most of the time with Rance, can make up for the lack of genuine leg speed. As I said quick accurate ball movement will always beat leg speed as the ball travels faster than a player does.

that's fine, but did include chaplin in that team?

 

[_RT_]

that's fine, but did include chaplin in that team?

That includes Chaplin in that side. Remember you only have 6 defenders on the ground at any one time. With the side I put up you have Chaplin Astbury & Rance as the talls with Dea Morris & Batchelor as the starting mediums. Grimes is there for rotational purposes given his flexibility, he can rotate with the 3 smaller blokes for a rest or if a tall is getting badly beaten or suffers an injury he gives us cover there, without having to take away another player from another area to cover.

 

[nut]

So a kid, lets not forget he is still only 20, who is a still just a rookie, tells the club that he feels that his game isn't ready for AFL and asks not to be elevated and yet somehow it is the clubs fault.

Well if this Bigfooty rumor that he has apparently asked not to be upgraded is true than there is obviously an element that he is worried the club will pick him before he feels ready??? Why the distrust? surely he should be confident in the club to make the correct call and he would have to put his hand up or down?

Look I know you're not happy with the way things are going at the club this year but to put the blame on them for him asking to not be elevated is a stretch.

Not a stretch at all.... just shows a lack of trust in the brains trust.... how could it not? plus we have a history of picking guys too early and then watching them rot in the 2's for long strecthes after that..... the list is long. Post... Griffith....Elton... etc....

I'd much rather a kid who felt he needed more development say to the club I'm not ready than have us waste time elevating him and not giving someone else a chance. The kid has plenty of time on his side and elevating him to the senior list at the end of this year based on what he has shown the last couple of years would be a smart move. We get a kid with 3 years of development already put into him, who has shown some talent and leadership for a pick in the last 2 rounds of the draft.

As I said, The fact that he Needed to say is my key point.... and as I said it says more about the club than player....

Plus he is competing with 1 spot with 1 other player... Williams so hardly sheep stations.

 

[mitch richmond]

Well if this Bigfooty rumor that he has apparently asked not to be upgraded is true than there is obviously an element that he is worried the club will pick him before he feels ready??? Why the distrust? surely he should be confident in the club to make the correct call and he would have to put his hand up or down?



Not a stretch at all.... just shows a lack of trust in the brains trust.... how could it not? plus we have a history of picking guys too early and then watching them rot in the 2's for long strecthes after that..... the list is long. Post... Griffith....Elton... etc....



As I said, The fact that he Needed to say is my key point.... and as I said it says more about the club than player....

Plus he is competing with 1 spot with 1 other player... Williams so hardly sheep stations.

Jayden Post??? He couldn't get a kick at Coburg and showed hardly anything in the 30 games we handed him. The other 17 clubs didn't see anything in him when he was available. Doubt he's even dominating for Altona or whoever he's playing with this year.

 

[_RT_]

Well if this Bigfooty rumor that he has apparently asked not to be upgraded is true than there is obviously an element that he is worried the club will pick him before he feels ready??? Why the distrust? surely he should be confident in the club to make the correct call and he would have to put his hand up or down?




Not a stretch at all.... just shows a lack of trust in the brains trust.... how could it not? plus we have a history of picking guys too early and then watching them rot in the 2's for long strecthes after that..... the list is long. Post... Griffith....Elton... etc....



As I said, The fact that he Needed to say is my key point.... and as I said it says more about the club than player....

Plus he is competing with 1 spot with 1 other player... Williams so hardly sheep stations.

You really are drawing a long bow here. Darrou is a 3rd year rookie, if he didn't trust the club I doubt he would have happily agreed to take a 3rd year on the rookie list where he could continue to develop his game and chase his dream of playing AFL eventually. Now I don't know about you but there is no way I would return for a 3rd year at a place where I didn't trust the people in charge. In fact I'd suggest 99% of people would be the same.

 

[theflea]

That includes Chaplin in that side. Remember you only have 6 defenders on the ground at any one time. With the side I put up you have Chaplin Astbury & Rance as the talls with Dea Morris & Batchelor as the starting mediums. Grimes is there for rotational purposes given his flexibility, he can rotate with the 3 smaller blokes for a rest or if a tall is getting badly beaten or suffers an injury he gives us cover there, without having to take away another player from another area to cover.

Fair enough but for me I want another runner.