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Clarification on stat taking

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Mr Gor

Don Mega
Jun 11, 2008
3,049
1,109
Colorado
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
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Emanuel Augustus
While taking stats for a friendly footy game that me and my mates played via video tape, I realised just how complicated it can get! Even though a previous year's "Prospectus" had the definitions of all of Champion Data's stats and how they are recorded, there seems to be a lot of grey areas that I'm unsure on.

I actually take stats for basketball as a side job, so I have a general idea on how it works. They're supposed to be as black & white as possible, with minimal judgement being left to make by the statistician (e.g. if a player passes to a teammate, and the pass goes through his hands, the statistician can judge that the receiving player should've caught the ball and can award the turnover to him).

But in football, it's not really as simple. If anyone can help me out, I'd like to have the following clarified:

> Effective kicks/handballs - are these based purely on the disposal itself, or are they dependant on the result? (e.g. kicking to the advantage of teammates but getting a bad bounce, kicking poorly but getting a good bounce, handballing accurately but the receiving player doesnt catch it, shots at goal that result in behinds, handballing to yourself - does it even count??)
> Tackles - I was under the impression that only 1 tackle could be awarded per play, but once I saw a gang tackle award 3 players with a tackle! Should it just be given to the player that tackled first?
> Rebound 50s - do players who kick long from a kick-in get a rebound 50? What about the player he kicked to (guy standing in the back pocket recieves the kick-in, then kicks long). Or is there no rebound 50 because the other team registered a score?
> Clangers - some general info on clangers would help, e.g. different types of clangers? Clangers from kick-ins?
> Hard ball/loose ball gets - general clarification (both are classified as contested possessions). Is a loose ball get awarded EVERY time that the player picks the ball up from the ground, or just when it has come out of a contested situation (I assumed the latter)? What about crumbing marking contests? Is a hard ball get awarded if a player wins the ball from ANY contested situation (e.g. marking contest where there is physical pressure on the player, and even though he doesn't take the mark because the defender got first hands on it he gains possession?) - technically it's a contested possession?
> Clearances - I understand clearances, but what if there's a free kick on the play (e.g. ruck contest or someone holding off the ball), does the free kick receiver get awarded the clearance (I assumed they did)?

Can anyone can help out with me getting a clearer view on some of the things mentioned? Perhaps someone with a newer version of the Prospectus (I'm guessing they would have definitions at the back like they did in the one I had, mine was 2006)

Also, just for additional info, the stats I take include disposals + their effectiveness, marks, contested marks, hard ball/loose ball gets, handball receives, inside/rebound 50s, tackles, frees for/against, hit outs, hit outs to advantage, clearances, goals/behinds (this way I can calculate both DT and SC scores :D)

Cheers guys

EDIT: and on a side-note, does anyone know of any free & GOOD stat taking software? I'm just using a highly advanced excel spreadsheet atm :eek:
(it actually is pretty damn good I think, it automatically inputs the stats into tables similar to those seen in the Herald Sun!! :thumbsu:)
 
Your first problem is you had me short about 3 goal assists from Big Match III.

Any my effectiveness should be 110% ;)

I'm pretty sure center clearances must have a clearance put down, free kick or not....but i'm not sure. Sort of like a rebound must be marked down for every missed shot in bball, though sometimes it's a 'team rebound'.

Justw atch the Crows today for reference ;) See how many clearances Dangerfields gets and see if you're right.....should be about 15.
 
Definitions of all the extended statistics vary on who collates them. These are all roughly based on champion data's

> Effective kicks/handballs - are these based purely on the disposal itself, or are they dependant on the result? (e.g. kicking to the advantage of teammates but getting a bad bounce, kicking poorly but getting a good bounce, handballing accurately but the receiving player doesnt catch it, shots at goal that result in behinds, handballing to yourself - does it even count??)
Handballing to yourself does count. When you recollect it, it's counted as a gather rather than a handball receive.

Effective disposals are based on the result. You could kick a stinker but if it still goes to a team-mate, essentially it's still helping the team, so it's effective. But if you kick to a team-mate on the bounce, but instead of bouncing to him, it takes a sharp turn and goes to an opposition player, then obviously it's a clanger. But if you go to handball to a team-mate who receives it but fumbles it under little or no pressure, then it's still an effective handball.

> Rebound 50s - do players who kick long from a kick-in get a rebound 50? What about the player he kicked to (guy standing in the back pocket recieves the kick-in, then kicks long). Or is there no rebound 50 because the other team registered a score?

There is always a rebound 50. The player only receives it if he's kicked it to himself, though. The other ones are counted against the team, much like rushed behinds.

> Clangers - some general info on clangers would help, e.g. different types of clangers? Clangers from kick-ins?
Clanger kicks, clanger handballs, free kicks against, dropped marks, 50m penalties, fumbles under no pressure that result in losing possession, etc.


> Hard ball/loose ball gets - general clarification (both are classified as contested possessions). Is a loose ball get awarded EVERY time that the player picks the ball up from the ground, or just when it has come out of a contested situation (I assumed the latter)? What about crumbing marking contests? Is a hard ball get awarded if a player wins the ball from ANY contested situation (e.g. marking contest where there is physical pressure on the player, and even though he doesn't take the mark because the defender got first hands on it he gains possession?) - technically it's a contested possession?

The difference between a contested possession and uncontested possession how the ball being directed by the previous player.

There's seven ways a player can receive a ball according to CD. Two of those are gathers and loose ball gets. Both ways involve receiving the ball in a normally "uncontested" fashion. However, a gather is credited as an uncontested possession whereas a loose ball get is credited as a contested possession. A gather is where the ball has been directed by a team-mate into your hands without a mark being taken or a handball receive (either by a kick on the bounce, a knock-on or a hit out by a ruckman). A loose ball get can be any of those, but from the opposition. Basically a loose ball get is picking up a loose ball that hasn't been directed to you by a team-mate.



> Clearances - I understand clearances, but what if there's a free kick on the play (e.g. ruck contest or someone holding off the ball), does the free kick receiver get awarded the clearance (I assumed they did)?

Yes
 
Your first problem is you had me short about 3 goal assists from Big Match III.

Any my effectiveness should be 110% ;)

I'm pretty sure center clearances must have a clearance put down, free kick or not....but i'm not sure. Sort of like a rebound must be marked down for every missed shot in bball, though sometimes it's a 'team rebound'.

Justw atch the Crows today for reference ;) See how many clearances Dangerfields gets and see if you're right.....should be about 15.

You're an idiot Walrus!! go get your 7 possies and 31 DT points you flowering shower hahahaa
 

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Effective disposals are based on the result. You could kick a stinker but if it still goes to a team-mate, essentially it's still helping the team, so it's effective. But if you kick to a team-mate on the bounce, but instead of bouncing to him, it takes a sharp turn and goes to an opposition player, then obviously it's a clanger. But if you go to handball to a team-mate who receives it but fumbles it under little or no pressure, then it's still an effective handball.

There is always a rebound 50. The player only receives it if he's kicked it to himself, though. The other ones are counted against the team, much like rushed behinds

The difference between a contested possession and uncontested possession how the ball being directed by the previous player.

There's seven ways a player can receive a ball according to CD. Two of those are gathers and loose ball gets. Both ways involve receiving the ball in a normally "uncontested" fashion. However, a gather is credited as an uncontested possession whereas a loose ball get is credited as a contested possession. A gather is where the ball has been directed by a team-mate into your hands without a mark being taken or a handball receive (either by a kick on the bounce, a knock-on or a hit out by a ruckman). A loose ball get can be any of those, but from the opposition. Basically a loose ball get is picking up a loose ball that hasn't been directed to you by a team-mate.

Cheers Silky that's exactly the kind of response I am looking for. :thumbsu:

On effective disposals, I remember reading from Champion Data that:
- effective kicks = long kicks to a 50-50 or better contest, short kicks to the advantage of your team (e.g. no contest)
- ineffective kicks = long kicks to a worse than 50-50 contest, short kicks to a 50-50 contest or worse

Based on this, it kinda contradicts what you said about how it depends on the result. I guess it's probably better to base effective kicks off the above outlined criteria, and then when it gets a little grey just base it on the result?

The loose-ball get one has been made a lot clearer now as well. I actually think I followed that way of thinking while I was taking the stats, so thank god I don't have to go through the games and do em again!! (I might have to have another look at those rebound 50s though :eek:)

Further input from anyone else would still be appreciated, anyone actually do footy stats as a job???
 
Champion Data break kicks down into various sub-categories:

Long Kick - a kick that travels 40+ metres to a 50:50 contest or better
Short kick - a kick that travels less than 40 metres resulting in an uncontested possession to a team-mate (also includes backwards kicks)
Ineffective kick - a "long" kick that travels to a, say 1-on-2 or 1-on-3, or a "short" kick that travels to a contest or worse
Clanger kick - a kick that travels down the throat of the opposition under little or no pressure; this includes kicking to space with a team-mate given no reasonable chance to win the ball
Ground kick - any reasonable kick off the ground (so dribbling the ball three or four times wouldn't record three or four kicks)

Long, short and ground kick are regarded as effective, whereas ineffective and clanger kicks are regarded as ineffective kicks. Thus why you may see stats saying a team had 40 long kicks, 100 short kicks but general kicks was 210 and wonder why it doesn't add up, the remaining 70 are ineffective or clanger kicks.
 
Just a quirky one regarding a stoppage and free kick. If a player is knocked in the head during a ruck contest and receives a free, but can't take the kick, the player taking the kick simply receives the stat on how the ball is disposed (including inside/rebound 50), whereas the player who should have taken the kick but wasn't receives the free kick for stat and the clearance stat.


Using should/could a lot. Bearing in mind this is all loosely based on champion data's definitions (which are largely good). Obviously you can define these statistics any way you choose so I really shouldn't use should be. But you get what I mean.
 
i have a wuaetion on goal assits
if you kick the ball to noone and it is taken by a player who in turn kicks the goal is it an assist
and if you handball to a pleyr at your defensive 50 and he runs the field and kicks the goal, is that an assist?
 
Just a quirky one regarding a stoppage and free kick. If a player is knocked in the head during a ruck contest and receives a free, but can't take the kick, the player taking the kick simply receives the stat on how the ball is disposed (including inside/rebound 50), whereas the player who should have taken the kick but wasn't receives the free kick for stat and the clearance stat.

Makes sense. It's kinda like in bball if a player takes someone else's free throws after they get fouled/injured. Hopefully nobody in our games are getting hit in the head hard enough to not let em kick tho!!


i have a wuaetion on goal assits
if you kick the ball to noone and it is taken by a player who in turn kicks the goal is it an assist
and if you handball to a pleyr at your defensive 50 and he runs the field and kicks the goal, is that an assist?

Yeah I've never read up on the criteria for goal assists?? Obviously having a basketball background, I understand the "assist" stat very well, however I'm not sure what the qualifiers for it are. I would say that if a player takes a bounce after receiving the ball, the assist is gone because it should be deemed that he has run far enough and is now creating his own play (similar to in bball, where if a player receives a ball then creates his own shot off the dribble, the assist isn't there).

As for the first scenario, I'd probably say that a goal assist can only be recorded after an effective kick (the kind of kick you mentioned was ineffective). I guess refer to above for what an effective kick qualifies as.


I think we're making some headway in this thread, I believe that a lot of people sitting at home have no idea how many different kind of crazy stats footy has and how difficult it is to take em live!! I'd very much like to know how it's done (for anyone curious, bball is done by at least 2 people, a caller and a recorder. The recorder just sits on a computer and inputs the plays that the caller "commentates" using simplified terms).

Silky, is there any particular reason for your knowledge about it all?
 
Quick Question.

What about soccering the ball. If that is deemed as a kick, then think of the soccer enhanced players like Didak, Clarke, Davey, Akermanis and such... each time they kick it is it a possession? I often see Clarke give little toepokes a couple times a game. This mean they are possessions? I think it's pretty obvious but surely theres a line between a toe poke and an actual possession.
 
Quick Question.

What about soccering the ball. If that is deemed as a kick, then think of the soccer enhanced players like Didak, Clarke, Davey, Akermanis and such... each time they kick it is it a possession? I often see Clarke give little toepokes a couple times a game. This mean they are possessions? I think it's pretty obvious but surely theres a line between a toe poke and an actual possession.

it's up to interpretation i believe, you have to judge what type of kick it was intended to be. if the player is just toe-poking it to space or to a teammate close by it doesn't count, but if the kick gains enough ground or results in a mark/out of bounds on the full it has to be counted as a kick.

it's a tough one to give black and white rules on cos it all depends on the situation/intention of the kick.
 

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Clarification on stat taking


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