Rumour Daniel Menzel

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Seemed a lovely bloke when he was interviewed in his first game back from the ACLs that time, but you never know what lays beneath surface, but good that it appears to be the former I guess.
 
This isn't intended to open up a can of worms, but this story is exactly why 'believe all women' and 'me too', whilst being well-intentioned, can be dangerous.

It's fortunate that Menzel didn't lose his career over this had he still been playing.

Before anybody tries to defend the woman in question despite the court ruling, just think about how easily yourself, your brother, your father, your son etc could have their lives turned upside down by similar false accusations.
 
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chunkylover53 said:
no its not, she flipped out on the gear and he asked her to leave. what's the problem?
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This bit.

Mr Mezel previously told the court that after he stripped off and got into bed, the woman remained wearing clothes and talking to him at the end of the bed for about five minutes before her demeanour changed.

“She said ‘who are you? I don’t know who you are, I don’t know what’s going on’. I said ‘OK, what’s happening?’ and she said ‘I don’t know where I am’ and I said ‘I’ll run you through everything and explain what’s happened’.

“She had a stunned look on her face, it was very obvious. It made me concerned because I didn’t know what was happening.

Doesnt that show someone probably not in the state of mind to give consent? Why not ask her to leave after she flips out on the gear (as you put it) the first time?

Im not (and didnt) say he did anything legally wrong but it's not how I'd conduct myself and doesnt scream fit state of mind to give consent does it?
 
matthew_s said:
This bit.

Mr Mezel previously told the court that after he stripped off and got into bed, the woman remained wearing clothes and talking to him at the end of the bed for about five minutes before her demeanour changed.

“She said ‘who are you? I don’t know who you are, I don’t know what’s going on’. I said ‘OK, what’s happening?’ and she said ‘I don’t know where I am’ and I said ‘I’ll run you through everything and explain what’s happened’.

“She had a stunned look on her face, it was very obvious. It made me concerned because I didn’t know what was happening.

Doesnt that show someone probably not in the state of mind to give consent? Why not ask her to leave after she flips out on the gear (as you put it) the first time?

Im not (and didnt) say he did anything legally wrong but it's not how I'd conduct myself and doesnt scream fit state of mind to give consent does it?
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If he was also drinking (which isn't a crime) and drunk (which isn't a crime) then having full comprehension immediately to tell her to jog on can't be fully expected. It sounds as though he handled the situation well and was probably just worried about her wellbeing. Hence why he continued to explain the situation and not ask her to leave. It seems as though her reaction escalated to the point where trying to offer her a place to sleep wasn't even possible.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
This isn't intended to open up a can of worms, but this story is exactly why 'believe all women' and 'me too', whilst being well-intentioned, can dangerous.

It's fortunate that Menzel didn't lose his career over this had he still been playing.

Before anybody tries to defend the woman in question despite the court ruling, just think about how easily yourself, your brother, your father, your son etc could have their lives turned upside down by similar false accusations.
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Yep, it’s terrible.

My mate got accused of rape by some girl who regretted sleeping with him, was dragged through the courts for years and finally it was revealed that she made it up. He’s forever known as Rapist Ando now. Mud sticks
 

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Blackhawk42 said:
This isn't intended to open up a can of worms, but this story is exactly why 'believe all women' and 'me too', whilst being well-intentioned, can be dangerous.

It's fortunate that Menzel didn't lose his career over this had he still been playing.

Before anybody tries to defend the woman in question despite the court ruling, just think about how easily yourself, your brother, your father, your son etc could have their lives turned upside down by similar false accusations.
Click to expand...
yeah lets take the 1-2 cases among thousands that are proven to be 'possibly false' and taint every allegation as being probably made up
 
theyellowsash said:
yeah lets take the 1-2 cases among thousands that are proven to be 'possibly false' and taint every allegation as being probably made up
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I have no idea how you've responded with something so generalised.

No where in my post did I suggest anything like that.

I'm simply suggesting that gender politics and trial by media isn't necessarily fair in a society that has always prided itself on the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven.

Here is another story if you are interested.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Melbourne tradie cleared of rape after one-night stand blames metoo

A successful young tradie who had his life torn apart after being wrongly accused of drugging and raping a hip law student believes they are both victims of the 'MeToo Movement' gone mad.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Blackhawk42 said:
I have no idea how you've responded with something so generalised.

No where in my post did I suggest anything like that.

I'm simply suggesting that gender politics and trial by media isn't necessarily fair in a society that has always prided itself on the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven.

Here is another story if you are interested.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Melbourne tradie cleared of rape after one-night stand blames metoo

A successful young tradie who had his life torn apart after being wrongly accused of drugging and raping a hip law student believes they are both victims of the 'MeToo Movement' gone mad.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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Youre saying we shouldnt believe women who report assault because there are some extremely rare examples where its fake. i especially like the fact that you raise 'me-too', despite it having outed many high profile people who otherwise were getting away with decades of assault.

maybe if the authorities did listen to women more, things like me-too wouldnt be needed. actually its not even maybe. things like me-too and other public accusations exist only because noone listens to or believes women.

ill believe any woman who comes to me saying she's been assaulted, because the probability is far far far in favour that she is telling the truth (probably by a factor of thousands, if not more)
 
theyellowsash said:
Youre saying we shouldnt believe women who report assault because there are some extremely rare examples where its fake. i especially like the fact that you raise 'me-too', despite it having outed many high profile people who otherwise were getting away with decades of assault.

maybe if the authorities did listen to women more, things like me-too wouldnt be needed. actually its not even maybe. things like me-too and other public accusations exist only because noone listens to or believes women.

ill believe any woman who comes to me saying she's been assaulted, because the probability is far far far in favour that she is telling the truth (probably by a factor of thousands, if not more)
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What do you classify as assault? Is it what the law decides it is? Or just a particular persons interpretation of an incident?

That may sound harsh, but it's important. It's important because there is a wide spectrum of (mostly) women who perceive certain incidents to be worthy of 'cancelling' somebody, even if legally no crime has been committed. Literally my point is that due process is important so people aren't tried in court of public opinion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't believe women. I'm saying we should be retaining a core staple of our society in allowing all facts to be explored. Because in modern times all it takes is a factually unchecked tweet to destroy a person's life. We either allow that to rule our behaviour or let due process take it's course.

If this arose during his playing career, could Menzel have been stood down?

What SHOULD classify as sexual assault or simple decency towards women is a different argument. One we are probably pretty close to alligning on, as most decent people would.

However the public campaigns to call out (mostly) celebrities for luede behaviour started to steer further away from those who deserved it towards likely innocent parties who may have been guilty only of having a bad date.
That doesn't take into account lies designed to tear people down either.

No person should ever subjected to sexual assault.
No person should ever be falsely accused of such a crime.

It's a tough one, I understand. But breaking that all down to buzz phrase such as 'believe all women' is potentially opening it's own Pandora's Box of problems.

If every case could stay away from the social media pages I'd agree wholeheartedly.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
What do you classify as assault? Is it what the law decides it is? Or just a particular persons interpretation of an incident?

That may sound harsh, but it's important. It's important because there is a wide spectrum of (mostly) women who perceive certain incidents to be worthy of 'cancelling' somebody, even if legally no crime has been committed. Literally my point is that due process is important so people aren't tried in court of public opinion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't believe women. I'm saying we should be retaining a core staple of our society in allowing all facts to be explored. Because in modern times all it takes is a factually unchecked tweet to destroy a person's life. We either allow that to rule our behaviour or let due process take it's course.

If this arose during his playing career, could Menzel have been stood down?

What SHOULD classify as sexual assault or simple decency towards women is a different argument. One we are probably pretty close to alligning on, as most decent people would.

However the public campaigns to call out (mostly) celebrities for luede behaviour started to steer further away from those who deserved it towards likely innocent parties who may have been guilty only of having a bad date.
That doesn't take into account lies designed to tear people down either.

No person should ever subjected to sexual assault.
No person should ever be falsely accused of such a crime.

It's a tough one, I understand. But breaking that all down to buzz phrase such as 'believe all women' is potentially opening it's own Pandora's Box of problems.

If every case could stay away from the social media pages I'd agree wholeheartedly.
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You sound like you’ve either disregarded, misunderstood or ignored the context behind the “me too” and “believe all women” movements. You’ve possibly even confused the two also.

”believe all women” is a tearing down of the decades and decades of women’s abuse and accusations being downplayed, ignored and swept under the rug by police and authorities. It’s about them being heard, and being listened to.

It’s not about accusations being true until proven otherwise, it’s about listening, and getting to the bottom of what happened.

Making a generalization about these movements, saying that they can be dangerous because a case didn’t stick in court, is a misrepresentation of the movement and what they both stand for.

I think it’s best that you keep commentary on the movements separate from this Menzel case.
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
You sound like you’ve either disregarded, misunderstood or ignored the context behind the “me too” and “believe all women” movements. You’ve possibly even confused the two also.

”believe all women” is a tearing down of the decades and decades of women’s abuse and accusations being downplayed, ignored and swept under the rug by police and authorities. It’s about them being heard, and being listened to.

It’s not about accusations being true until proven otherwise, it’s about listening, and getting to the bottom of what happened.

Making a generalization about these movements, saying that they can be dangerous because a case didn’t stick in court, is a misrepresentation of the movement and what they both stand for.

I think it’s best that you keep commentary on the movements separate from this Menzel case.
Click to expand...

I can explain my point better to stop any confusion. I just realised I probably haven't done the best job at separating two very important factors.

I agree with everything you just said. In regards to police and authorities it is paramount that anybody claiming to be a victim in situations like these is treated with complete dignity and believed entirely.

The 'trial by media' aspect is where my concern lies. You can see examples early in this Daniel Menzel thread. His reputation was potentially tarnished over one of the most serious allegations you can level against a man. In these instances, using 'believe all women' is highlighting the major issue with modern politics, where people care more about their pre-conceived allegiances than what the facts may actually be.

You will get more of this with celebrities of course. However, in the article I posted a few posts earlier, it shows anybody can be at risk of a false allegation.
 
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