Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[stormbird]

What certain last proof of life do we have for William? The photos which because they emanate from sources under control of FPs aren't proof of life at all. Original testimony of Savage where he said he heard them playing that morning but then recanted his testimony at inquest. Is there any independent witness proof? Were there neighbours that heard or saw them that morning?

Angry Red Bull, I think two neighbours heard but didn't see children playing that morning: Paul S at No. 43 (who you've already mentioned; I don't know what you mean about him recanting his testimony?) and Judy W at No. 30.

Re Paul:

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 20 August 2019:

The court heard he had his breakfast on his patio sometime after 9am when he heard children playing.

He is asked if he thought the children he heard playing were the foster grandchildren from across the street. He told the court he wasn’t sure if it was them or other kids from the neighbourhood. He says he “didn’t see them at all”.

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 22 August 2019, talking about a walk-through video filmed by police in 2017:

The detectives ask Mr Savage to sit on his verandah in the spot he would’ve had his breakfast that morning, overlooking* Benaroon Drive. “Can you remember if Heather was our here with you that morning?” The detective asked. He replied he can’t remember.

[*By me, stormbird: I think "overlooking" is a strange choice of word - the Savage's house is clearly downhill, below the level of the road.]

He tells detectives he heard children playing while he was sitting there. He points in the direction of 48 Benaroon Drive. He tells them it was “just a squeal, laugh, kids playing... I’d say there was two (children)”.

Craddock stops the tape and asks “were you able to see the children when you went out the door?”. Mr Savage replied no.

Craddock asked “did you hear the children all of that time?”. “I remember hearing the kids...I’m pretty sure Heather was there because I think I said it’s good to hear the kids playing,” he told the court. He can’t remember how long he heard them for.

The hearing has resumed. Mr Savage is being asked on the video about whether his memory of the children was clear. He responds he clearly remembers hearing them playing, but can’t say for sure if Heather was with him.

Detectives asked him if the sound of the children playing was “frustrating because it was loud”. He denies that it frustrated him.

---

Judy W quoted by Lia Harris in the Daily Telegraph, 06 Sep 2015:

"The only thing I was able to tell police was that I heard the children playing but didn’t see them … I just heard kids laughing and you could tell they were little children,” Mrs Wilson said.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...r/news-story/03fb14d003bfb73d3c193b5f6731f74c

 

[31550]

Angry Red Bull, I think two neighbours heard but didn't see children playing that morning: Paul S at No. 43 (who you've already mentioned; I don't know what you mean about him recanting his testimony?) and Judy W at No. 30.

Re Paul:

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 20 August 2019:

The court heard he had his breakfast on his patio sometime after 9am when he heard children playing.

He is asked if he thought the children he heard playing were the foster grandchildren from across the street. He told the court he wasn’t sure if it was them or other kids from the neighbourhood. He says he “didn’t see them at all”.

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 22 August 2019, talking about a walk-through video filmed by police in 2017:

The detectives ask Mr Savage to sit on his verandah in the spot he would’ve had his breakfast that morning, overlooking* Benaroon Drive. “Can you remember if Heather was our here with you that morning?” The detective asked. He replied he can’t remember.

[*By me, stormbird: I think "overlooking" is a strange choice of word - the Savage's house is clearly downhill, below the level of the road.]

He tells detectives he heard children playing while he was sitting there. He points in the direction of 48 Benaroon Drive. He tells them it was “just a squeal, laugh, kids playing... I’d say there was two (children)”.

Craddock stops the tape and asks “were you able to see the children when you went out the door?”. Mr Savage replied no.

Craddock asked “did you hear the children all of that time?”. “I remember hearing the kids...I’m pretty sure Heather was there because I think I said it’s good to hear the kids playing,” he told the court. He can’t remember how long he heard them for.

The hearing has resumed. Mr Savage is being asked on the video about whether his memory of the children was clear. He responds he clearly remembers hearing them playing, but can’t say for sure if Heather was with him.

Detectives asked him if the sound of the children playing was “frustrating because it was loud”. He denies that it frustrated him.

---

Judy W quoted by Lia Harris in the Daily Telegraph, 06 Sep 2015:

"The only thing I was able to tell police was that I heard the children playing but didn’t see them … I just heard kids laughing and you could tell they were little children,” Mrs Wilson said.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...r/news-story/03fb14d003bfb73d3c193b5f6731f74c

Dare I say - Cue the conspiracy theories speculating that FM pre recorded the children laughing and playing, to play back at volume so the neighbours could hear. ?

There is also the evidence from William's sister that they were both present at the house and on the verandah before he jumped off and roared like a Tiger.

 

[Wallace52]

Dare I say - Cue the conspiracy theories speculating that FM pre recorded the children laughing and playing, to play back at volume so the neighbours could hear. ?

There is also the evidence from William's sister that they were both present at the house and on the verandah before he jumped off and roared like a Tiger.

I believe the sister. I think William was there on the day that he went missing.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Angry Red Bull, I think two neighbours heard but didn't see children playing that morning: Paul S at No. 43 (who you've already mentioned; I don't know what you mean about him recanting his testimony?) and Judy W at No. 30.

Re Paul:

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 20 August 2019:

The court heard he had his breakfast on his patio sometime after 9am when he heard children playing.

He is asked if he thought the children he heard playing were the foster grandchildren from across the street. He told the court he wasn’t sure if it was them or other kids from the neighbourhood. He says he “didn’t see them at all”.

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 22 August 2019, talking about a walk-through video filmed by police in 2017:

The detectives ask Mr Savage to sit on his verandah in the spot he would’ve had his breakfast that morning, overlooking* Benaroon Drive. “Can you remember if Heather was our here with you that morning?” The detective asked. He replied he can’t remember.

[*By me, stormbird: I think "overlooking" is a strange choice of word - the Savage's house is clearly downhill, below the level of the road.]

He tells detectives he heard children playing while he was sitting there. He points in the direction of 48 Benaroon Drive. He tells them it was “just a squeal, laugh, kids playing... I’d say there was two (children)”.

Craddock stops the tape and asks “were you able to see the children when you went out the door?”. Mr Savage replied no.

Craddock asked “did you hear the children all of that time?”. “I remember hearing the kids...I’m pretty sure Heather was there because I think I said it’s good to hear the kids playing,” he told the court. He can’t remember how long he heard them for.

The hearing has resumed. Mr Savage is being asked on the video about whether his memory of the children was clear. He responds he clearly remembers hearing them playing, but can’t say for sure if Heather was with him.

Detectives asked him if the sound of the children playing was “frustrating because it was loud”. He denies that it frustrated him.

---

Judy W quoted by Lia Harris in the Daily Telegraph, 06 Sep 2015:

"The only thing I was able to tell police was that I heard the children playing but didn’t see them … I just heard kids laughing and you could tell they were little children,” Mrs Wilson said.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...r/news-story/03fb14d003bfb73d3c193b5f6731f74c

Key witness changes his story at William Tyrrell inquest

People in a packed gallery sit up when inconsistencies begin to appear in the testimony of "person of interest" Paul Savage, a neighbour who claimed he joined in the search for the missing three-year-old.

www.abc.net.au

This

Yes I did recall a second person too. Judy W at number 30

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Dare I say - Cue the conspiracy theories speculating that FM pre recorded the children laughing and playing, to play back at volume so the neighbours could hear. ?

There is also the evidence from William's sister that they were both present at the house and on the verandah before he jumped off and roared like a Tiger.

Assume nothing. Cris Dawson is alleged to have:

• faked a phone call at kiosk
• purchased clothing using LD CC
• repeatedly said he had spoken to LD
• had numerous friends suggest they'd seen LD

All I'm suggesting with FPs is they may have edited camera images in their possession to hide time. No conspiracy theory. Simply don't accept it until proven and it's not. LT said he went off the verandah but we don't know time. Paul Savage said he heard them play only then didn't. I don't recall context of testimony of JW at number 30 but becomes more important in my mind.

Addendum: Judy W heard them earlier in the morning before going into town to run errands and when she returned the street was in chaos.

It seems to me that this is more consistent with the 7.39 time.

 

[31550]

All I'm suggesting with FPs is they may have edited camera images in their possession to hide time. No conspiracy theory.

That is literally the definition of a conspiracy theory.

 

[stormbird]

Assume nothing. Cris Dawson is alleged to have:

• faked a phone call at kiosk
• purchased clothing using LD CC
• repeatedly said he had spoken to LD
• had numerous friends suggest they'd seen LD

All I'm suggesting with FPs is they may have edited camera images in their possession to hide time. No conspiracy theory. Simply don't accept it until proven and it's not. WT said he went off the verandah but we don't know time. Paul Savage said he heard them play only then didn't. I don't recall context of testimony of JW at number 30 but becomes more important in my mind.

Addendum: Judy W heard them earlier in the morning before going into town to run errands and when she returned the street was in chaos.

It seems to me that this is more consistent with the 7.39 time.

Paul S said he did hear the children while he was sitting on his patio sometime after 9 am. He said he didn't hear or see them when returning home from his daily walk at 8:50 am (when he would have been walking from Batar Creek Road along Benaroon Drive, past FGM's southern lawn and past the location where the two parked cars weren't).

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 22 August 2019:

Craddock stops the video and clarifies he [Paul S] arrived home about 8.50am from the morning walk. “Did you see the children at number 48 Benaroon drive?” He asks. Mr Savage answered no. “Did you hear them?”. He answered no.

Savage tells detectives in the video he knew his wife was home when he arrived home from his walk because the front door was open. He tells them he didn’t see or hear anyone on the street.

Mr Savage tells detectives he doesn’t recall seeing the foster parents car in the driveway at 48 Benaroon Drive when he arrived home from his walk.

And re Judy W's departure time: Missing William Tyrrell (2021 revised edition, p. 202) says she left home at 9 am.

If those reports are correct, Judy heard the kids before 9am and Paul heard them after.

 

[Wallace52]

Judy heard the kids before 9am and Paul heard them after

I don’t think the timeframe of 9.38 - 10.30am is too narrow to allow for a potential accident and coverup scenario to have occurred.

IMO, William could have had an accident and died during that time.

I would say it’s more likely that if William died at the home, 48 B. D., his body was still on that property at 10.30am, and moved later. Maybe FM went for her drive after the FF came home, and then called 000 at what - 11.00am?

So 10.35 - 11am may have been the timeframe in which the body was removed from the house, before the police were called.

The body would have had to be out of the house and away from area before the cops got there.

But it’s also possible he was abducted. I mean, that’s what happens when you let a 3 year-old child play in an unfenced semi-rural property unsupervised. Someone might take them. That’s just the world we live in.

 

[NRL Fan]

If police want to "focus on FM", then focus on this:

• police video walkthrough with FM taken a few days after William's disappearance where she talks in detail about her drive to the riding school on Batar Creek Rd, and the passing 'semi trailer' driver
• police statement made on 14 September 2014 where there is no mention whatsoever of this drive. Nothing.
• subsequent statement made by FM on 17 March 2015 (when Jubelin took over the case), she acknowledges the previous statement and elaborates on it, but still no mention whatsoever about the drive to Batar Creek Rd.
• further interview with Jubelin where he allegedly 'grilled' both foster parents before clearing them, to enable the $1M reward to be offered. Again, no questions (or answers) about the drive to Batar Creek Rd
• no mention of the drive to Batar Creek Rd in Wendy Hudson's case notes

A few simple questions (for the record)

• Why and when did she take this drive, was she alone, and how long was she gone?
• Why did FM not detail this drive in any of her police statements?
• Where were the FGM and William's sister when she left, and when she returned?
• How long after William disappeared was the drive? Where did she look before the drive, and how long after the drive before FF returned?
• Who else did she tell about this drive? E.g. did she ask her mother for keys, or ask her mother to watch William's sister?
• Would anyone besides the semi trailer driver have seen her?
• How does this fit the timeline of William being only out of her sight for 5 minutes before she started looking? And FF returning at 10:30.

I haven't posted here for a while, but had a check-in and saw this discussion.

As someone who visits this area regularly, I'm curious about the mention of a semi-trailer on FM's drive down Batar Ck road, because that is a road to nowhere and turns into gravel. You can't turn onto another major road and there is no access to the freeway other than 4x4 trails over middle brother. I could believe a truck carrying goods or building materials or a garbage truck, but she specifically said a semi trailer, which is very different and as an educated person she would not mistake a truck for a semi. A semi would also have stood out if driven past the tennis club camera, but no such image has been mentioned. On the remote chance a semi did drive down there, you would think someone else would have noticed the vehicle, which would have turned around somewhere in a difficult manouvre or visited a farm or small business.

Maybe this is why she never repeated the drive story, because she realised later that the the semi encounter was not likely and it would draw doubts. Which raises the question - did police or the inquest raise any doubts on the semi ?.

 

[31550]

I haven't posted here for a while, but had a check-in and saw this discussion.

As someone who visits this area regularly, I'm curious about the mention of a semi-trailer on FM's drive down Batar Ck road, because that is a road to nowhere and turns into gravel. You can't turn onto another major road and there is no access to the freeway other than 4x4 trails over middle brother. I could believe a truck carrying goods or building materials or a garbage truck, but she specifically said a semi trailer, which is very different and as an educated person she would not mistake a truck for a semi. A semi would also have stood out if driven past the tennis club camera, but no such image has been mentioned. On the remote chance a semi did drive down there, you would think someone else would have noticed the vehicle, which would have turned around somewhere in a difficult manouvre or visited a farm or small business.

Maybe this is why she never repeated the drive story, because she realised later that the the semi encounter was not likely and it would draw doubts. Which raises the question - did police or the inquest raise any doubts on the semi ?.

Agree it could not have been a semitrailer or even a large truck. If it was a commercial vehicle it should have been easy to trace as there are very few properties off that road, and property owners would have been able to say if they owned such a vehicle or had a delivery that day. Police also could have surveyed all trucks registered to owners in that vicinity.
As far as we know the truck or its driver has never been identified.
But the FM says she took the drive. If she didn't take the drive, why say she did? And why has it been removed from the narrative?

 

[shorsky]

I predicted that he would add his two cents.

He still talks about himself on his podcast like he is still a cop. It’s really weird.

Do you think part of him thinks he’s still on the case of William Tyrrell?

I think he still harbours a lot of ‘hurt’ over what he perceives to be unfair treatment of him - we don’t know the actual truth of what went on in the inner workings of the Force, but I’d suggest they were out to get him.

Irrespective, I think it’s time he bowed out of these comments ( tho maybe he’s paid for them & every $ counts)

It’s been 10 long years of sadness, questioning, and extreme confusion at every turn re what became of this little boy.

Did he wander off ?
Was he abducted ?
Was he handed over to someone else ?

Is he dead or alive ?

Did he have a fatal accident, which was covered up?
Was he murdered & that was very well covered up ?

Or is he living somewhere else ?

I’ve no idea.

And I can’t understand how the supposed best brains of our investigative forces can spend 10 years and also have no idea, let alone anything concrete.
I think it’s a farce & best they give up. I don’t think there’s any chance that he’s about to come back, and Karma will eventually provide any punishments that are due.

 

[shorsky]

Angry Red Bull, I think two neighbours heard but didn't see children playing that morning: Paul S at No. 43 (who you've already mentioned; I don't know what you mean about him recanting his testimony?) and Judy W at No. 30.

Re Paul:

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 20 August 2019:

The court heard he had his breakfast on his patio sometime after 9am when he heard children playing.

He is asked if he thought the children he heard playing were the foster grandchildren from across the street. He told the court he wasn’t sure if it was them or other kids from the neighbourhood. He says he “didn’t see them at all”.

Tweets by @LiaJHarris from the inquest hearing 22 August 2019, talking about a walk-through video filmed by police in 2017:

The detectives ask Mr Savage to sit on his verandah in the spot he would’ve had his breakfast that morning, overlooking* Benaroon Drive. “Can you remember if Heather was our here with you that morning?” The detective asked. He replied he can’t remember.

[*By me, stormbird: I think "overlooking" is a strange choice of word - the Savage's house is clearly downhill, below the level of the road.]

He tells detectives he heard children playing while he was sitting there. He points in the direction of 48 Benaroon Drive. He tells them it was “just a squeal, laugh, kids playing... I’d say there was two (children)”.

Craddock stops the tape and asks “were you able to see the children when you went out the door?”. Mr Savage replied no.

Craddock asked “did you hear the children all of that time?”. “I remember hearing the kids...I’m pretty sure Heather was there because I think I said it’s good to hear the kids playing,” he told the court. He can’t remember how long he heard them for.

The hearing has resumed. Mr Savage is being asked on the video about whether his memory of the children was clear. He responds he clearly remembers hearing them playing, but can’t say for sure if Heather was with him.

Detectives asked him if the sound of the children playing was “frustrating because it was loud”. He denies that it frustrated him.

---

Judy W quoted by Lia Harris in the Daily Telegraph, 06 Sep 2015:

"The only thing I was able to tell police was that I heard the children playing but didn’t see them … I just heard kids laughing and you could tell they were little children,” Mrs Wilson said.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...r/news-story/03fb14d003bfb73d3c193b5f6731f74c

Just thinking about all these ‘kids playing’ noises; laughing, squealing, playing - when do we think this happened, because to me it was very quiet behaviour on the deck in those photos, so not then.
Breakfast was around 8am so not then.
Maybe when bike riding ? Perhaps after breakfast & before colouring on the desk - But L appears to be wearing a a dressing gown / long coat when on the deck, surely not bike riding attire.

I think I’ll give it a rest as trying to make any sense of any of the timelines, statements etc., is doing my head in.

 

[stormbird]

I haven't posted here for a while, but had a check-in and saw this discussion.

As someone who visits this area regularly, I'm curious about the mention of a semi-trailer on FM's drive down Batar Ck road, because that is a road to nowhere and turns into gravel. You can't turn onto another major road and there is no access to the freeway other than 4x4 trails over middle brother. I could believe a truck carrying goods or building materials or a garbage truck, but she specifically said a semi trailer, which is very different and as an educated person she would not mistake a truck for a semi. A semi would also have stood out if driven past the tennis club camera, but no such image has been mentioned. On the remote chance a semi did drive down there, you would think someone else would have noticed the vehicle, which would have turned around somewhere in a difficult manouvre or visited a farm or small business.

Maybe this is why she never repeated the drive story, because she realised later that the the semi encounter was not likely and it would draw doubts. Which raises the question - did police or the inquest raise any doubts on the semi ?.

I'm dumb enough to call a big truck a "semi-trailer", so maybe FM is equally clueless.

What about a low loader? Would that qualify as "a semi"? There was a company based in Cobb & Co Road which did excavations or earthmoving etc which would have required them to transport heavy equipment. Maybe FM stopped on Cobb & Co Road, not Batar Creek Road, just as the driver was moving equipment in or out. If the police were able to identify the semi and talk to the driver, they probably wouldn't have had any reason to tell the public about it.

 

[stormbird]

Just thinking about all these ‘kids playing’ noises; laughing, squealing, playing - when do we think this happened, because to me it was very quiet behaviour on the deck in those photos, so not then.
Breakfast was around 8am so not then.
Maybe when bike riding ? Perhaps after breakfast & before colouring on the desk - But L appears to be wearing a a dressing gown / long coat when on the deck, surely not bike riding attire.

I think I’ll give it a rest as trying to make any sense of any of the timelines, statements etc., is doing my head in.

That's a good point (that only some of the kids' activities would have been noisy). So if the neighbours had a clear memory of their own timelines that morning, their statements should have been able to help clarify the times of the foster family activities e.g. hypothetically, if Judy W knew she left home at 9am and knew she heard the kids while walking to her car, the kids were doing something noisy just before 9.

 

[NRL Fan]

Agree it could not have been a semitrailer or even a large truck. If it was a commercial vehicle it should have been easy to trace as there are very few properties off that road, and property owners would have been able to say if they owned such a vehicle or had a delivery that day. Police also could have surveyed all trucks registered to owners in that vicinity.
As far as we know the truck or its driver has never been identified.
But the FM says she took the drive. If she didn't take the drive, why say she did? And why has it been removed from the narrative?

It hasn't been removed from the narrative, because the police searched that area near Cobb and Co road based on her drive story, but the police investigation of that drive story doesn't seem to have been widely reported. For example she said she passed a semi-trailer driver, whereas you would expect someone to say they passed a semi-trailer and maybe provide some details on the colour or company name written on the rig. If you passed a semi in a small vehicle on that road you would be forced to the edge of the road and would focus on avoiding the truck, not the driver.

So, was the FM trying to sell the police a red herring, where she wants them to believe WT might have been taken by a truck driver in a semi off Batar Ck road, implying that a semi driver would be taking WT far away, or was she giving herself an alibi for a trip she made down that road, just in case someone saw her in her mum's car ?. My guess is it's a red herring and she never drove down there, but we're then left with "where's WT" and no closer to solving the case.

 

[Wallace52]

My guess is it's a red herring and she never drove down there, but we're then left with "where's WT" and no closer to solving the case.

It is a red herring. IMO. The FM had days to concoct that story, too. Which day was her police walkthrough interview on? The Thursday after W went missing?

She may have taken him in the car, but taken him somewhere entirely different. IMO.

And also, I might add, I cannot see her doing the dirty work of disposing of a corpse herself. I just can’t.

All MOO.

 

[Wallace52]

I think he still harbours a lot of ‘hurt’ over what he perceives to be unfair treatment of him - we don’t know the actual truth of what went on in the inner workings of the Force, but I’d suggest they were out to get him.

From what I remember from one of his I Catch Killers episodes, once he was taken off the WT case but before he resigned- they put him in a room at work, like one of those rooms with the one way glass, and he had to just come to work at sit there in that room being observed.

I think whatever happened, it seemed like that process was traumatic for GJ and it has clearly shaped him as a person moving forwards. I do feel for him because it must have been a very isolating and confronting experience for him.

IMO

 

[stormbird]

It hasn't been removed from the narrative, because the police searched that area near Cobb and Co road based on her drive story, but the police investigation of that drive story doesn't seem to have been widely reported. For example she said she passed a semi-trailer driver, whereas you would expect someone to say they passed a semi-trailer and maybe provide some details on the colour or company name written on the rig. If you passed a semi in a small vehicle on that road you would be forced to the edge of the road and would focus on avoiding the truck, not the driver.

So, was the FM trying to sell the police a red herring, where she wants them to believe WT might have been taken by a truck driver in a semi off Batar Ck road, implying that a semi driver would be taking WT far away, or was she giving herself an alibi for a trip she made down that road, just in case someone saw her in her mum's car ?. My guess is it's a red herring and she never drove down there, but we're then left with "where's WT" and no closer to solving the case.

The police said the 2021 search was based on new information. Maybe they had new information about FM's drive, but they didn't specify that, as far as I know.

I've wondered if the reason for the 2021 search was actually because police hadn't fully finished the 2018 search around Benaroon Drive (maybe because they ran out of time because Jubelin ordered the searchers to go to Batar Creek for a few days instead? I'm just guessing and wondering).

The map of the 2018 forensic search shows a long narrow area close to houses on the southern side of Benaroon Drive which appears to have not been searched:

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/306062130270dd3341f8291f09e1244c

(from The Australian, 16 August 2019, paywalled)

Blocks 54, 55 and 56 have yellow outlines, as if police planned to search them, but they're not coloured or labelled with a "week" number.

On Google Maps or similar there's a stream shown in roughly the same area (and maybe it only runs during floods, I don't know). My guess is that the areas searched in 2021 along Batar Creek Road and Cobb & Co Roads are probably downstream of that unsearched area if during flood times the Benaroon Drive stream and Cobb & Co stream get bunched up together while trying to go under Batar Creek Road to head east towards the river.

So, hypothetically, maybe police had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that William had not got lost (or that his body was not hidden) in that stream or reeds area close to Benaroon, but by 2021 that area had (after floods) moved south?

 

[31550]

The police said the 2021 search was based on new information. Maybe they had new information about FM's drive, but they didn't specify that, as far as I know.

I've wondered if the reason for the 2021 search was actually because police hadn't fully finished the 2018 search around Benaroon Drive (maybe because they ran out of time because Jubelin ordered the searchers to go to Batar Creek for a few days instead? I'm just guessing and wondering).

The map of the 2018 forensic search shows a long narrow area close to houses on the southern side of Benaroon Drive which appears to have not been searched:

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/306062130270dd3341f8291f09e1244c

(from The Australian, 16 August 2019, paywalled)

Blocks 54, 55 and 56 have yellow outlines, as if police planned to search them, but they're not coloured or labelled with a "week" number.

On Google Maps or similar there's a stream shown in roughly the same area (and maybe it only runs during floods, I don't know). My guess is that the areas searched in 2021 along Batar Creek Road and Cobb & Co Roads are probably downstream of that unsearched area if during flood times the Benaroon Drive stream and Cobb & Co stream get bunched up together while trying to go under Batar Creek Road to head east towards the river.

So, hypothetically, maybe police had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that William had not got lost (or that his body was not hidden) in that stream or reeds area close to Benaroon, but by 2021 that area had (after floods) moved south?

The 2021 search was at the direction of the Coroner.

IMO, the 2021 search was the first time SFR seriously considered the theory that William was neither abducted, nor wandered off and got lost. But the first time they seriously considered he may have come to grief at the FGM property, and that this had been concealed.

There was only ever a cursory search of the FGM house and surrounding properties in 2014, looking for evidence of William who was supposedly still alive, or at least not long gone, and possibly concealed. This was mainly a search for William himself, still possibly alive.

The later searches 2015 and 2018 conducted by Jubelin seemed to follow the abduction theory, where William was taken by someone and quickly disposed of nearby (e.g. the search down at Cedars Logging Lane, also the searches of Spedding's property, and bushland at Logan's crossing) - all too far for William to have wandered by himself. These were forensic searches looking for e.g. items of clothing, rather than William himself.

The 2021 search used ground-penetrating radar and other techniques - clearly they were looking for a body, and police explicitly said this was the case. So, this indicates they seriously considered (possibly for the first time) that William may have died on or near the FGM property. The 2021 search also included two further locations along Batar Creek Road which may coincide with the alleged FM drive on the day William disappeared. Police did not say why they chose those locations.

 

[Wallace52]

The 2021 search was at the direction of the Coroner.

IMO, the 2021 search was the first time SFR seriously considered the theory that William was neither abducted, nor wandered off and got lost. But the first time they seriously considered he may have come to grief at the FGM property, and that this had been concealed.

There was only ever a cursory search of the FGM house and surrounding properties in 2014, looking for evidence of William who was supposedly still alive, or at least not long gone, and possibly concealed. This was mainly a search for William himself, still possibly alive.

The later searches 2015 and 2018 conducted by Jubelin seemed to follow the abduction theory, where William was taken by someone and quickly disposed of nearby (e.g. the search down at Cedars Logging Lane, also the searches of Spedding's property, and bushland at Logan's crossing) - all too far for William to have wandered by himself. These were forensic searches looking for e.g. items of clothing, rather than William himself.

The 2021 search used ground-penetrating radar and other techniques - clearly they were looking for a body, and police explicitly said this was the case. So, this indicates they seriously considered (possibly for the first time) that William may have died on or near the FGM property. The 2021 search also included two further locations along Batar Creek Road which may coincide with the alleged FM drive on the day William disappeared. Police did not say why they chose those locations.

Thats an excellent summary, 31550 . You certainly are very well-versed on the case.
I suppose the $1M question is - did the police find anything in their 4 week 2021 search that might add to the investigation or provide any sort of clarity around what may have happened to William?

And consequently, if they didn’t find anything, were they able to rule the accident theory out?

The big question for me is around what the police found in the FGM car!

 

[NRL Fan]

The police said the 2021 search was based on new information. Maybe they had new information about FM's drive, but they didn't specify that, as far as I know.

I've wondered if the reason for the 2021 search was actually because police hadn't fully finished the 2018 search around Benaroon Drive (maybe because they ran out of time because Jubelin ordered the searchers to go to Batar Creek for a few days instead? I'm just guessing and wondering).

The map of the 2018 forensic search shows a long narrow area close to houses on the southern side of Benaroon Drive which appears to have not been searched:

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/306062130270dd3341f8291f09e1244c

(from The Australian, 16 August 2019, paywalled)

Blocks 54, 55 and 56 have yellow outlines, as if police planned to search them, but they're not coloured or labelled with a "week" number.

On Google Maps or similar there's a stream shown in roughly the same area (and maybe it only runs during floods, I don't know). My guess is that the areas searched in 2021 along Batar Creek Road and Cobb & Co Roads are probably downstream of that unsearched area if during flood times the Benaroon Drive stream and Cobb & Co stream get bunched up together while trying to go under Batar Creek Road to head east towards the river.

So, hypothetically, maybe police had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that William had not got lost (or that his body was not hidden) in that stream or reeds area close to Benaroon, but by 2021 that area had (after floods) moved south?

The bush in those search areas is incredibly thick and venturing in by even a few metres would leave you covered in cuts and scratches. The people searching in most of those areas would have used protective clothing and I can't imagine a 3yo boy wandering off a track or property into that bush wearing only a thin suit, so I'm thinking he didn't wander off. The creeks you mention are not flowing unless there is rain and the first major flood after WT went missing was in 2021, where 650mm of rain fell in 2 days. If WT was dumped in a creek, then his remains and clothes would probably have remained there for some time and possibly 7 years before the big flood hit.

My main conclusion on the FM's likely lie regarding the semi driver is that it gives more weight to the balcony fall theory and subsequent body disposal, but nothing more

 

[LRitz]

You're suggesting William's parents changed the time settings before the pic was taken for false proof of life to be presented after a planned murder.

Change the time setting before and ALSO put it back after.
The time is specific, AEST minus 118minutes xx seconds. So to be precise you would need another clock for reference that is set at that time exactly.
I don't think the camera or memory stick records that changes were made to clock settings AFAIK.

 

[LRitz]

IMO there’s nothing really, apart from the McDonald’s footage from the night before
the alleged disappearance.

Agree.
And in the photo it is easy to see William because he is on the FF's shoulders! ( No. I don't give up easily.)
Also with the pick up from preschool, the cat, stop to eat, I think it is proved they did not arrive until dark. So the "roar" photo is taken the next morning (at ...... insert a time).

 

[31550]

Change the time setting before and ALSO put it back after.
The time is specific, AEST minus 118minutes xx seconds. So to be precise you would need another clock for reference that is set at that time exactly.
I don't think the camera or memory stick records that changes were made to clock settings AFAIK.

I don't think you have thought this through completely. What would be the reason proof of life photos are required at all for 9:37? If you are going to commit a planned crime, why draw additional attention, and why add to the crime by committing conspiracy to conceal evidence? Makes no sense. Too complicated, too far-fetched IMO. If they wanted to get rid of William, all they had to do was take him for a stroll into the bush, drop him down a mineshaft , and then say he wandered off and you couldn't find him. But why get rid of him in the first place?

 

[BFew]

I don't think you have thought this through completely. What would be the reason proof of life photos are required at all for 9:37? If you are going to commit a planned crime, why draw additional attention, and why add to the crime by committing conspiracy to conceal evidence? Makes no sense. Too complicated, too far-fetched IMO. If they wanted to get rid of William, all they had to do was take him for a stroll into the bush, drop him down a mineshaft , and then say he wandered off and you couldn't find him. But why get rid of him in the first place?

Why are you discounting an accident (as opposed to a planned crime) before or around 8am in the morning in your above post?