islamo-facism ????

[hoss]

Islamo-facism

Firstly, let me say I don't think I have 10% of the knowledge of world politics, religion, terrorism etc that most of the posters on this board have. I do however enjoy reading all the "to-ing and fro-ing", and then forming my own balanced (so I think) opinions.

I'm not "sold" on the in vogue term "islamo-facist" yet. For whom does this term apply and what is the words origin? It worries me slightly that the only posters that use the term on these boards have very strong pro-Israel beliefs.

Is the term "islamo-facist" synonomous with what others may refer to as Muslim revivalists? Or what most Aussies (and I) refer to as Islamic terrorists or extremists?

Does it refer to Al-Qa'ida , Jemaah Islamiah and similar terrorist groups? Or does it apply to Palestinians fighting social disadvantage and injustice in their homeland?

Islamic terrorism around the world does not appear at all well-organised, but has strength in many different groups with shared ideals, fundamentalist interpretations and even shared enemies. What worries me most about the Israel - Palestinian conflict, and even war in Iraq (under seemingly false pretences) is that although they are not the main reason for Islamic extremism, they are situations which further unite and recruit more terrorists with shared extremist views - it provides propaganda "ammunition".

I believe the world is a more dangerous place to live than before the Iraqi war. Although I condemn terrorism of any kind, Israel's hardline approach, taking land, building of security barriers etc is strengthening the Islamic terrorist network around the world.

 

[BlueMark]

Islamo-facist: a made up Jane word. She throws it at anyone who disagrees with her

 

[WA ROO]

Islamo-facist: a made up Jane word. She throws it at anyone who disagrees with her

Sort of like Lestats Islamaphobe insult really

 

[hoss]

Islamo-facist: a made up Jane word. She throws it at anyone who disagrees with her

Jane does use the word a lot, but I'm not sure it's one of her pseudo-terms though. I think I've heard it before somewhere - but not from the more measured scribes.

 

[GuruJane]

Jane does use the word a lot, but I'm not sure it's one of her pseudo-terms though. I think I've heard it before somewhere - but not from the more measured scribes.

Islamofascism was a term coined by the English (Left wing) writer Christopher Hitchens.

I believe the first time he used it was in relation to the Iranian Mullah's fatwa on Salman Rushdie, back in the 1980s.

 

[Subliminal]

The term is very common in the United States. I believe it refers more to groups like the Taliban, Iranian Ayatollas, and other fascist leaders and groups who control nations and force thier rigid backward moral code on to others

 

[GuruJane]

The term is very common in the United States. I believe it refers more to groups like the Taliban, Iranian Ayatollas, and other fascist leaders and groups who control nations and force thier rigid backward moral code on to others

Correct. Although it would be more accurate to describe it as "religious" code.

 

[Subliminal]

Correct. Although it would be more accurate to describe it as "religious" code.

You're right, that's a better word for it.

 

[Bombers 2003]

Sort of like Lestats Islamaphobe insult really

Islamophobia is a genuine word.

 

[Tim56]

It's not a bad term actually. Iran, an Islamic state, has many of the characteristics of a classic Fascist state.

 

[CharlieG]

Wikipedia lists it as a pejorative term in the same company as 'pinko', 'feminazi' and 'bible thumper'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pejorative_political_slogans

Legitimate term? I'm not sure. 'Fascism' is too often used to describe any totalitarian government, when in fact it's only one of various forms. Fascism has economic connotations, not religious ones generally.

I think it comes about from a tendency to lump quite distinct ideas into one culturally significant pile.

 

[hoss]

Islamofascism was a term coined by the English (Left wing) writer Christopher Hitchens.

I believe the first time he used it was in relation to the Iranian Mullah's fatwa on Salman Rushdie, back in the 1980s.

Thanks Jane...was interested in the origin of the term.

 

[hoss]

Wikipedia lists it as a pejorative term in the same company as 'pinko', 'feminazi' and 'bible thumper'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pejorative_political_slogans

Legitimate term? I'm not sure. 'Fascism' is too often used to describe any totalitarian government, when in fact it's only one of various forms. Fascism has economic connotations, not religious ones generally.

I think it comes about from a tendency to lump quite distinct ideas into one culturally significant pile.

Thanks Charlie....my recollections are that I have only heard it used in a disparaging way.

 

[Tim56]

Wikipedia lists it as a pejorative term in the same company as 'pinko', 'feminazi' and 'bible thumper'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pejorative_political_slogans

Legitimate term? I'm not sure. 'Fascism' is too often used to describe any totalitarian government, when in fact it's only one of various forms. Fascism has economic connotations, not religious ones generally.

I think it comes about from a tendency to lump quite distinct ideas into one culturally significant pile.

I disagree about Fascism being an economic system. Fascist regimes can have anything from a socialist government (Nazi's) to an economically libertarian regime. The general defining principle is ultra-Nationalism, combined with a single leader in whom all power is vested. No regimes since the 1940's (I may be wrong, but none come to mind) have called themselves Fascist, but I think the Saddam regime is one example.

 

[GuruJane]

Wikipedia lists it as a pejorative term in the same company as 'pinko', 'feminazi' and 'bible thumper'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pejorative_political_slogans

Legitimate term? I'm not sure. 'Fascism' is too often used to describe any totalitarian government, when in fact it's only one of various forms. Fascism has economic connotations, not religious ones generally.

I think it comes about from a tendency to lump quite distinct ideas into one culturally significant pile.

Fascism is associated with fanaticism, totalitarianism, subjugation of legal systen to the tyranny's will, denial of civil rights except those of the believers and total rejection of democratic institutions. It is also associated with the exertion of will of a committed, armed and brutal minority over the majority.

In Germany and Italy it was also associated with an economic policy, as you say.

I guess that's why Hitchens dubbed this one "Islamofascism" to distinguish it from the earlier.
However Islamofascism itself does hold to some archaic economic principles ... eg abolition of interest (all Jewish plot) which Hitchens, an anti Zionist and Leftist, would not want to grapple with.

Charlie, surely you only have to look at the Taleban regime to see the prime example of "Islamofascism". Isn't fascism is the right word to describe that regime?

As it lost potency and popularity, Stalin's communism came to be described as "State fascism" : a recognition that the characteristics of fascism is not confined to the Right.
This term arose from the writing of the dissident movement in USSR and the liberation movements in the Soviet bloc. Lech Walesa would have been one.

Of course, the most obvious difference from national socialism ie racism is not present, but most of the others are.

That's how I think the term "fascism" has evolved over time to become a definition of what I would call "tyrannists using force over the mind, the spirit and free will".

Saddam Hussein's Iraq:

Unquestionably a fascist regime. Surely you won't argue with this? It fulfills virtually all of the characteristics. Probably not surprising since the Baathist party had its foundations in national socialism.

Saddam took the Baathists then one upped it by applying the methodology of his hero/ role model Stalin which is what gave us an example of an extraordinarily personalised brutality and tyranny over 25 years, exacted also by his sons and others in his ruling circle ...

... just like Hitler/Stalin, but in so many cases arguably worse in terms of the personal, psychological tyranny that Saddam and his cohorts exercised over a smaller and therefore more easily controlled population.

In summary ... while I can agree that "fascism" is too easily used as a cliche term to cover any and all tin pot dictatorships, I cannot agree that the "ideas" of fascism are at all distinct to Germany and Italy versions of national socialism as you suggest.

You would get a more academic and maybe better argued case for what I am trying to say at the Left site, Harry's Place.

 

[CharlieG]

Jane, I have a feeling this could be one of the few times where we are going to be able to have a discussion without both of us throwing mud.

The reason I'm unconvinced by the 'Islamo-fascism' tag (although I haven't worried too much about it until reading this thread) is the consequences it has for the definition of 'fascism'.

The fascism that arose in Europe after WW2 was, as Tim said, based on ultra-nationalism. That ultra-nationalism was supposed to rise above class distinctions to create a corporate state where labour and capital are on the same page. That theory defined the movement; the Nazis were not a quintessential fascist regime - hence the term 'Nazism' - and hence racism, to use your example, can't be considered a defining element of fascism.

I don't see that theocracies such as Afghanistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia are in any way base upon those sort of ideas. Hence, they are not fascist. Authoritarian/totalitarian yes, but totalitarianism doesn't define fascism any more than racism does.

I'm very much a novice when it comes to political science, but I don't think it's a good idea to change the defining features of a system in order to make it's name a catch-all term. Why is it not good enough to identify fascism, Stalinism and Islamic fundamentalism as three social systems that have as a common feature totalitarianism? If you want to tell me that Hitler, Stalin and Mullar Omar were all totalitarians, I won't argue against you at all.

 

[MillerCHF]

Saddam Hussein's Iraq:

Unquestionably a fascist regime. Surely you won't argue with this? It fulfills virtually all of the characteristics. Probably not surprising since the Baathist party had its foundations in national socialism.

Saddam took the Baathists then one upped it by applying the methodology of his hero/ role model Stalin which is what gave us an example of an extraordinarily personalised brutality and tyranny over 25 years, exacted also by his sons and others in his ruling circle ...

... just like Hitler/Stalin, but in so many cases arguably worse in terms of the personal, psychological tyranny that Saddam and his cohorts exercised over a smaller and therefore more easily controlled population.

In summary ... while I can agree that "fascism" is too easily used as a cliche term to cover any and all tin pot dictatorships, I cannot agree that the "ideas" of fascism are at all distinct to Germany and Italy versions of national socialism as you suggest.

You would get a more academic and maybe better argued case for what I am trying to say at the Left site, Harry's Place.

GuruJane, are you saying that Saddam's Iraq was fascist, or Islamoc-fascist?If you're implying that it was an Islamo-fascist regime, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.
Having said that, your explanation on the background of the term helps a lot. I was also unsure of the exact origins of the word.

While Saddam's Iraq was certainly fascist, it was not a regime based on Islamic grounds. Iran would certainly be a model of what Islamo-fascism is or could be. The same goes for Saudi Arabia and Sudan.

I'm very much a novice when it comes to political science, but I don't think it's a good idea to change the defining features of a system in order to make it's name a catch-all term. Why is it not good enough to identify fascism, Stalinism and Islamic fundamentalism as three social systems that have as a common feature totalitarianism? If you want to tell me that Hitler, Stalin and Mullar Omar were all totalitarians, I won't argue against you at all.

You certainly make a good case for not calling it Islamo-fascism. I guess there is always some sort of conjecture when a new term is introduced to the political arena. It's always possible to find some sort of problem with the new term. Certainly, the linking of the word 'fascism' with the word 'Islam' or 'Islamism' was a deliberate attempt to show people the dangers of the Islamist totalitarian movements. I can see why you have a problem with it, but on the other hand, as I said, a lot of new terms have teething problems in gaining acceptance but later on are used more widely. There are certainly enough similarities between 'Islamo-fascism' and fascism itself to justify having the term 'Islamo-fascism'.

 

[FIGJAM]

I believe it refers more to groups like the Taliban, Iranian Ayatollas, and other fascist leaders and groups who control nations and force thier rigid backward moral code on to others

You mean like the USA??