My Pagan Broken Record

[pumped]

I am posting again about Pagan and our list and must be starting to sound like a broken record. However every week I get more frustrated with the victim attitude that Denis seems to instill into the team.

Denis is I believe a potential super coach still. However if he continues to look for excuses for his side's poor discipline and performances then he is not going to be what we need.

He goes on about the draft pics but has about 8 guns in the side who he is not getting optimum performance from. Wouldn't it be better for him to put all of his energy into helping these players.

Koutoufides, Whitnall, Fevola, Camporeale, Stevens, Lappin, Waite, Houlihan, Thornton are all potentially top 50 in the AFL now. Then there are guys like Scotland, Walker, Norman even Davies and Betts who have the ability to be future stars. However few of these guys are consistently playing to their ability.

To have a coach consisitently talking about the season being lost and that he has a poor list is counter productive to these guys playing positive footy.Surely if Denis stopped looking negativly at our situation and became positive that these players would start to at least enable us to be compeditive.

We are the worst in the comp when it comes to discipline. If we continue to play with the lack of passion and discipline that we are then we will ruin much of the talent that the club already has. If this is the case we will need to draft about 22 guns.

I suppose if we did get 22 guns and started winning then Denis would look like a sueper coach again. The thing is Denis is still highly gifted just as are many of his list. If he regains some belief in himslef and his club then he can instill passion amongst his players again. Then we will not have to wait 5 years to watch a team that is compeditive and honest.

 

[bibi01]

I am posting again about Pagan and our list and must be starting to sound like a broken record. However every week I get more frustrated with the victim attitude that Denis seems to instill into the team.

Denis is I believe a potential super coach still. However if he continues to look for excuses for his side's poor discipline and performances then he is not going to be what we need.

He goes on about the draft pics but has about 8 guns in the side who he is not getting optimum performance from. Wouldn't it be better for him to put all of his energy into helping these players.

Koutoufides, Whitnall, Fevola, Camporeale, Stevens, Lappin, Waite, Houlihan, Thornton are all potentially top 50 in the AFL now. Then there are guys like Scotland, Walker, Norman even Davies and Betts who have the ability to be future stars. However few of these guys are consistently playing to their ability.

To have a coach consisitently talking about the season being lost and that he has a poor list is counter productive to these guys playing positive footy.Surely if Denis stopped looking negativly at our situation and became positive that these players would start to at least enable us to be compeditive.

We are the worst in the comp when it comes to discipline. If we continue to play with the lack of passion and discipline that we are then we will ruin much of the talent that the club already has. If this is the case we will need to draft about 22 guns.

I suppose if we did get 22 guns and started winning then Denis would look like a sueper coach again. The thing is Denis is still highly gifted just as are many of his list. If he regains some belief in himslef and his club then he can instill passion amongst his players again. Then we will not have to wait 5 years to watch a team that is compeditive and honest.

what excuses in particular?
give us some examples

 

[av76]

I am posting again about Pagan and our list and must be starting to sound like a broken record. However every week I get more frustrated with the victim attitude that Denis seems to instill into the team.

Denis is I believe a potential super coach still. However if he continues to look for excuses for his side's poor discipline and performances then he is not going to be what we need.

He goes on about the draft pics but has about 8 guns in the side who he is not getting optimum performance from. Wouldn't it be better for him to put all of his energy into helping these players.

Koutoufides, Whitnall, Fevola, Camporeale, Stevens, Lappin, Waite, Houlihan, Thornton are all potentially top 50 in the AFL now. Then there are guys like Scotland, Walker, Norman even Davies and Betts who have the ability to be future stars. However few of these guys are consistently playing to their ability.

To have a coach consisitently talking about the season being lost and that he has a poor list is counter productive to these guys playing positive footy.Surely if Denis stopped looking negativly at our situation and became positive that these players would start to at least enable us to be compeditive.

We are the worst in the comp when it comes to discipline. If we continue to play with the lack of passion and discipline that we are then we will ruin much of the talent that the club already has. If this is the case we will need to draft about 22 guns.

I suppose if we did get 22 guns and started winning then Denis would look like a sueper coach again. The thing is Denis is still highly gifted just as are many of his list. If he regains some belief in himslef and his club then he can instill passion amongst his players again. Then we will not have to wait 5 years to watch a team that is compeditive and honest.

I agree with what you say...if he doesn't think the list is good enough he should keep those feelings to himself...those sort of judments are for the media and people on chat boards like these to make. Those young players would see him as something of a god and then he says things like "give me draft picks and I'll show you silky skills"... Not only does is sap confidence but its stop players from taking the risks you need to on the footy field. I think the players are trying as hard as they can but you need confidence and self belief to have a clear head to make the right choices and to take good risks.

Maybe we don't have enough talent...but I say look at Collingwood compared to a few weeks ago...they were in bigger trouble than us...but I can't remember Malthouse (at least that I'm aware) saying he needs draft picks to be competitive before knocking off two of the top teams. And they stayed with Melbourne for a half.

Also, remember the Wizard cup...sure, its not the real season...but I remember all our players taking risks and hitting targets because their confidence was high...and playing for each other rather than for lots of "safe" possessions so they don't get dropped and delisted.

Denis is a great coach and I hope he stays on...but it doesn't mean he is immune from criticism. He is paid quite a lot of money to do his job, and one of those is keeping morale high. Considering we are rebuilding the team, a major job is to ensure young and impressionable guys have some self belief. This is important not only to be competitive this season but to be sure we have seen the best players have to offer before giving up on them. Guys like Sporn, Scotland, Davies, Norman have all been mentioned on this board as trade bait and/or delisting and on present performance its easy to make a case. But in the back of my head I still keep thinking they have all showed they have talent and it is a shame to let them go before we see them play with a full head of steam (I suppose Scotland has proved he is valuable contributor when he's up). I get the feeling some of the players and the president have even started believing that only 10 players on our list are up to AFL standard...and they may be right but as a supporter I just want to feel the team is playing with passion and guts they did last year...not only to enjoy some wins but also to really see what some of them are capable of when they take some risks. I think fans can accept losses if we were undersized or had injuries or lacked talent...but its the defeatist attitude that really gets on my nerves.

 

[gadj1976]

Pagan - great coach

Our major problem - disposals (turnovers) hurting us and Pagan et al not punishing those responsible.

 

[pumped]

what excuses in particular?
give us some examples

The main excuses are to do with the quality of the list and the draft penalties from before his time. Also has mentioned the youth of list on many occassions.

 

[bibi01]

The main excuses are to do with the quality of the list and the draft penalties from before his time. Also has mentioned the youth of list on many occassions.

he is stating facts:
we have the youngest list in the league
our list is one of the poorest in the league
we have missed out on 5 round 1 & 2 draft picks since 2002
we have not been able to trade (due to restrictions) as other clubs have
WC is a mickey mouse comp and taken seriously by about 4 or 5 clubs- there is noting to lose in WC thats why teams and players can take risks

if pagan comes out and sugar coats everything and try's to make things look all rosey and comes out with the same lines week in week out, we ask what is he craping on about, can't he see the real picture, he is only there for the money.

if he comes out and tells it how it is- we jump down his back saying he souldn't be saying these things to the media, he is sapping players confidence.

he is telling us how it is, he said at the end of 2004 for carlton not to get ahead of themselves as there was still alot of hard work to do, he also said that after the WC and he has also been saying this throughout this season.

sometimes the truth hurts and its upto the players on the list to prove him wrong and show how talented they really are.
if people believe that the players read every article in the papers they are kidding themselves.
the real messages he would be giving to the players comes behind closed doors, where very few people I included would know what is said to induviduals and the team as a whole.

 

[pumped]

he is stating facts:
we have the youngest list in the league
our list is one of the poorest in the league
we have missed out on 5 round 1 & 2 draft picks since 2002
we have not been able to trade (due to restrictions) as other clubs have
WC is a mickey mouse comp and taken seriously by about 4 or 5 clubs- there is noting to lose in WC thats why teams and players can take risks

if pagan comes out and sugar coats everything and try's to make things look all rosey and comes out with the same lines week in week out, we ask what is he craping on about, can't he see the real picture, he is only there for the money.

if he comes out and tells it how it is- we jump down his back saying he souldn't be saying these things to the media, he is sapping players confidence.

he is telling us how it is, he said at the end of 2004 for carlton not to get ahead of themselves as there was still alot of hard work to do, he also said that after the WC and he has also been saying this throughout this season.

sometimes the truth hurts and its upto the players on the list to prove him wrong and show how talented they really are.
if people believe that the players read every article in the papers they are kidding themselves.
the real messages he would be giving to the players comes behind closed doors, where very few people I included would know what is said to induviduals and the team as a whole.

Having the youngest list in the league is no excuse for the lack of discipline we have as a team. So yes Denis is stating a fact about the age but is not facing his responsibility in having this list play with discipline.

Yes we have lost draft pics but once again we still have quality players not performing who at least in the short term could more than compensate for the loss of pics.Whilst they should be able to lift themselves surely the coach has some responsibility as a motivator of his men.

With regards to us having the worst list in the comp how can you be so sure that this is a fact? You are entitled to your opinion but I sense that you are a little too one sided on this issue. If you go by our position on the ladder then yes it is factual. Why we are on the bottom is another debate again.

I firmly believe that everyone should be up for constructive critisism, Denis included. The side is not performing and this is a problem that needs to be searched from the president down to the boot studder. Denis has a great record and I believe is still a very talented coach but is in my opinion suffering from the same lack of self belief and awareness that the players are.

Both coach and players should look within themselves before going outside to look for blame. If everyone can work togeather and push each other to be real then the club can lift off the bottom and it can be immediate. Even Denis has said at times that footy is 90% above the shoulders.

 

[bibi01]

What do we want pagan to say after games and at press conferences?

If rising off the bottom of the ladder can be done imediatly, how do you suggest we do it?

 

[Kooley]

I get a bit tired of hearing that we have the youngest list in the league. To me this means jack ********. At this stage we only have two maybe three quality kids and that's Walker, Waite and maybe Thornton. The rest are average at best. We might be the youngest list in average age but as far as ability and talent is concerned in our so-called young list (who are they Dennis) then we are a long way behind. This shouldn't be used as an excuse.

 

[pumped]

What do we want pagan to say after games and at press conferences?

If rising off the bottom of the ladder can be done imediatly, how do you suggest we do it?

I am not so concerned about what he says as much as what he feels. These forums are about us all sharing opinions, some based on what we see and some based on what we feel or get from intuition.

I feel that Denis has lost much faith in his team and his ability to reach them. His comment about 'giving him draft picks and he will give good footy' I believe was a very reactional comment. As such I feel it was a real comment which I believe reflects where Denis' mind is at.

In order for us to get off the bottom now the first thing that needs to change is attitude. I believe this needs to start with Denis and Kouta. I believe both have lost much of their passion and as the leaders this energy is affecting others. Kouta certainly tries hard and wins much of the ball but just isn't free in his energy. To me he looks resigned to our fate.

I also believe that Campo has let the side down greatly as a leader. Whilst highly gifted his attitude has been that of a victim. Once again this energy affects the side greatly. It is hard to expect younger players to exhibit discipline when the vice captain sets the example he has been setting.

Would also like to see much more attention given to players down on form who have the talent to fire us up. Guys such as Houlihan, Norman, Fevola at times, Scotland, even Davies. I truly think that these types of players really can play yet are sadly lacking in confidence.

Even if we didn't get off the bottom I would still much rather see us play with passion than the efforts we are putting in at the moment.

 

[Go_Blueboyzzz]

eyyy PUMPED, i dont think you really understand how much these draft picks have cost the team....try being a coach who is trying to rebuild a side, that is missing a wells, goddard, brock mcclean and rivers, plus a few more pick 30's...think how much this hurts our line up as well as the process of building a successful side...so buddy actually think before u write ****...become more educated and get a more in depth analysis into the situation before you feel the need to coment...just a bit of future advice for ya buddy.

 

[DIG]

Where was pumped after we won the wizard cup grand final???? He mysteriously vanished when things were looking rosy (i say that with a huge emphasis on "looking"!)

 

[pumped]

eyyy PUMPED, i dont think you really understand how much these draft picks have cost the team....try being a coach who is trying to rebuild a side, that is missing a wells, goddard, brock mcclean and rivers, plus a few more pick 30's...think how much this hurts our line up as well as the process of building a successful side...so buddy actually think before u write ****...become more educated and get a more in depth analysis into the situation before you feel the need to coment...just a bit of future advice for ya buddy.

I believe that I am very educated about football and do give a balanced opinion in my posts. I never put other people who post down and don't draw conclusions about their knowledge.

I would question why you would feel the need to try and put me down. Why are you so affected by my comments. Why don't you try and answer some of the points I have raised about such things as discipline before launching into a personal analysis of me.

With regards to draft pics tell us something we don't already know. My point wasn't that draft pics wouldn't improve the side just that we are grossly underperforming at the moment and that the coach must take some of the blame.

 

[pumped]

Where was pumped after we won the wizard cup grand final???? He mysteriously vanished when things were looking rosy (i say that with a huge emphasis on "looking"!)

Where is it written that for someone to have an opinion that they should be regularly posting. As it stands the Wizard Cup did show how certain players can play when their confidence is up. If they can hit targets when things are good why not when the chips are down. We have adequate skill we just dont have mental toughness. This is a shared responsibility between everyone on the playing side including the coach.

 

[cleveland]

I am posting again about Pagan and our list and must be starting to sound like a broken record. However every week I get more frustrated with the victim attitude that Denis seems to instill into the team.

Denis is I believe a potential super coach still. However if he continues to look for excuses for his side's poor discipline and performances then he is not going to be what we need.

He goes on about the draft pics but has about 8 guns in the side who he is not getting optimum performance from. Wouldn't it be better for him to put all of his energy into helping these players.

Koutoufides, Whitnall, Fevola, Camporeale, Stevens, Lappin, Waite, Houlihan, Thornton are all potentially top 50 in the AFL now. Then there are guys like Scotland, Walker, Norman even Davies and Betts who have the ability to be future stars. However few of these guys are consistently playing to their
ability.



Get your hand off it mate. You have got the worst list by far in the Afl. Some of this is not Dennis fault. You missed out on a few future stars. But thats life, you do the crime, you do the time. Seriously im not having a go at you, but i am speaking fact. It is the worst list. The only way you are gonna go up is to stay down the bottom for a few more years and draft well, no use trading for hacks. (like we have before).

Cheers
Rob

 

[Allen's Blues]

Get your hand off it mate. You have got the worst list by far in the Afl. Some of this is not Dennis fault. You missed out on a few future stars. But thats life, you do the crime, you do the time. Seriously im not having a go at you, but i am speaking fact. It is the worst list. The only way you are gonna go up is to stay down the bottom for a few more years and draft well, no use trading for hacks. (like we have before).

Cheers
Rob

Start bagging us out after Saturday night, we will then see how good ur recruiters really are.

 

[TheBlueblood]

Laying a good hard tackle doesnt take much talent guys... it takes timing and weight(which none of our list reallly has atm) hard tackles slow down the guns --watch the filth in the last month(pies i mean) once the opponent knows hes getting no easy possy he looks a little..


Btw No-one has mentioned some of the hip and shoulders our best talent has done in the last few weeks!!!!!!

big JW our best player

 

[pumped]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your thoughts. I am not going to debate if our list is the weakest or not however I would question your opinion on the worst by far.

Either way you have partly supported my point by saying that some of this is not Denis' fault. I too believe that our woes at the moment are a group problem not just the coach. I still believe that Denis has the talent to be a great coach again. I just don't feel that he is anywhere near his best. Does this make him a lesser coach? Perhaps on form but not in reality of ability.

Many Carlton supporters are judging our players on performance alone and not allowing anything for the ability some have shown in the past. However with Denis they are judging him on past performance alone in my opinion. For coach and side to perform at their optimum they all need to take responsibility and work togeather.

Also even if I was to agree with you about the list being the worst it doesn't explain their lack of discipline. Even a no talent list can chase, tackle, man up and not give away stupid free kicks. I would be happy to watch Carlton play and lose so long as they were doing everything they could to be compeditive.