Research Richmond 1889 player ID

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From Penning's Origins of Australian Football (vol 3) the Richmond team in 1889 was:
Captain: P. O’Loughlin
Vice Captain: A. Searle
Team*: A. Banner (12), W. Brown (19), E. Burwood (19), H. Burwood (3), J. Coles (16),
J. Constable (2), A.J. Davis (19), G. Griffiths (18), Guthrie (1), J. Hall (2), A. Hill (6),
G. Hughes (4), Kemp (3), J. Kilmartin (12), Langdon (1), Lempriere (1), T. Lyons (19),
G. McLeod (17), McPhee (13), P. McSweeney (15), H. Morton (11), W. Murray (13),
P. O’Loughlin (18), J. Orr (1), T. Reddan (3), Ryan (1), A. Salton (3), A. Searle (18), J. Shore (17),
C. Stephens (17), J. Stewart (17), W. Stewart (3), C. Syle (18), H. Thomson (19), Trengrove (1),
H. Trowbridge (2), J. Warren (4), F. Wookey (7)
* 1/6: 5 missing; from Banner, Hughes, McLeod, McPhee, McSweeney, Murray, Shore.

Comparing with photo on Wikipedia, the player holding the ball looks like Pat O'Loughlin.
There is an 1888 team photo on p128 in Penning's book (you can find a pdf of it online) with over half of the 1889 team in it (but half of them are clean shaven!)
 
oldtimer2 said:
Does anyone know any of the players from the attached 1889 Richmond team photo?View attachment 409078
Click to expand...

For what it is worth, I've only confidentially ID'd:
BackRow: 3rd person from left is William Brown. (ie: first player with crossed arms looking at camera).
BackRow: Alf Hill third person from the right (so you've got, looking right to left - the offical , then a player, then Hill)

Middle Row: Herbert Morton, first person on the left (ie: the player with the long sleeve, moustache arms folded, standing looking at camera)
Middle Row : Patrick Toots O'Loughlin holding the football (captain)

Front Row Alf Searle first player from left ( Crossed arms crouching).
Front Row:possibly Christopher Syle next to Alf Searle
Front Row: Jimmy Coles far right, sitting down arms folder, both legs crossed
 

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surely Kevin Bartlett is there somewhere :)
 
Here's a very indistinct photo of the training ground of Richmond with players from the age in August 1933

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204379554

What is important is that on 16 September 1933 the Age identifies this team as the 1892 team and then names the people in the photograph.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19052713

Of this list 1889 players:

Team*: A. Banner (12), W. Brown (19), E. Burwood (19), H. Burwood (3), J. Coles (16),
J. Constable (2), A.J. Davis (19), G. Griffiths (18), Guthrie (1), J. Hall (2), A. Hill (6),
G. Hughes (4), Kemp (3), J. Kilmartin (12), Langdon (1), Lempriere (1), T. Lyons (19),
G. McLeod (17), McPhee (13), P. McSweeney (15), H. Morton (11), W. Murray (13),
P. O’Loughlin (18), J. Orr (1), T. Reddan (3), Ryan (1), A. Salton (3), A. Searle (18), J. Shore (17),
C. Stephens (17), J. Stewart (17), W. Stewart (3), C. Syle (18), H. Thomson (19), Trengrove (1),
H. Trowbridge (2), J. Warren (4), F. Wookey (7)
* 1/6: 5 missing; from Banner, Hughes, McLeod, McPhee, McSweeney, Murray, Shore.

W Stewart, J Stewart, are the only common players ( that seems a hell of a lot of player turnover and I am genuinely surprised at that). I suspect that something is askew.

I'm assuming also that the Age actually of 1933 actually went to then living members of the football fraternity who remembered that 1892 side and its players so had some contemporary evidence to support that identification.

You obviously need to get a clearer shot from the Age but evidence from then presumably living witnesses.

A question- is that 1889 attribution correct?
 
Also looking at that uniform in the photos, the players seemed to be wearing a mix of the stripes simpliciter and the stripes with the chamois v type uniform.

According to Footy jumpers, the chamois v uniform was used from about 1889 to mid 1890s while the stripes simpliciter was used from 1887 to 1905 while from about 1895 to 1907, the tigers played in hoops not stripes.

I'm obviously not an expert on early jumpers of the RFC so is that attribution correct.
 
Harry, having looked at the photo for several years I'm still leaning towards 1889.
O'Loughlin only captained Richmond in 1 year (he's holding the ball) and it is 1889.

I do notice on Ebay, the photo (along with many other old footy photos) has been turned into colour art. For mind I don't like the look of it at all. I find it quite devalues the original black and white image which is far more interesting and lovely.
 
rbartlett said:
Harry, having looked at the photo for several years I'm still leaning towards 1889.
O'Loughlin only captained Richmond in 1 year (he's holding the ball) and it is 1889.

I do notice on Ebay, the photo (along with many other old footy photos) has been turned into colour art. For mind I don't like the look of it at all. I find it quite devalues the original black and white image which is far more interesting and lovely.
Click to expand...
 
The 1892 Richmond photo player ID is a great find!! Outstanding to have this information. Thanks for the 1889 Richmond players Id to date. I have updated my thoughts on 1889 players from comparing with the 1888 pic.
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
From Penning's Origins of Australian Football (vol 3) the Richmond team in 1889 was:
Captain: P. O’Loughlin
Vice Captain: A. Searle
Team*: A. Banner (12), W. Brown (19), E. Burwood (19), H. Burwood (3), J. Coles (16),
J. Constable (2), A.J. Davis (19), G. Griffiths (18), Guthrie (1), J. Hall (2), A. Hill (6),
G. Hughes (4), Kemp (3), J. Kilmartin (12), Langdon (1), Lempriere (1), T. Lyons (19),
G. McLeod (17), McPhee (13), P. McSweeney (15), H. Morton (11), W. Murray (13),
P. O’Loughlin (18), J. Orr (1), T. Reddan (3), Ryan (1), A. Salton (3), A. Searle (18), J. Shore (17),
C. Stephens (17), J. Stewart (17), W. Stewart (3), C. Syle (18), H. Thomson (19), Trengrove (1),
H. Trowbridge (2), J. Warren (4), F. Wookey (7)
* 1/6: 5 missing; from Banner, Hughes, McLeod, McPhee, McSweeney, Murray, Shore.

Comparing with photo on Wikipedia, the player holding the ball looks like Pat O'Loughlin.
There is an 1888 team photo on p128 in Penning's book (you can find a pdf of it online) with over half of the 1889 team in it (but half of them are clean shaven!)
Click to expand...
Is this list of 1889 Richmond players correct.

I say this because this article of the Sporting Globe of 21 August 1943 refers to death of George Howarth.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181667004

Why is this important? It states that George was in 1943 the oldest living Richmond player and that he played in 1889. Yet he is not on that list of players.
George apparently was very much involved in Richmond so I am surprised he is not on that list. Family notices suggest he was 78-79 when he died which would place his year of birth as 1865\1864 and therefore only 24 in 1889.

This is also confirmed by contemporary reports in 1889, cf this report of the Sportsman of 5 June 1889:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page23314776

which refers to a social function involving Richmond players and names Howard, Davidson( who is also not on that list), Wookey, the Stewarts, Salton, Lyons, Coles and Trowbridge, many of whom are on that list.


This report too of Ovens and the Murray advertiser of 1 June 1889:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page21821126

refers to one lass called Agnes Miller who married the captain of Richmond, G Searle ( there is an A Searle on that list).

Further this report of 10 April 1889 of the Sportsman of 10 April 1889:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227931034

gives details of the Richmond meeting and names numerous of the players including Howarth.

Sorry folks. I don't take published sources at face value.
 
Harry Hook said:
Is this list of 1889 Richmond players correct.

I say this because this article of the Sporting Globe of 21 August 1943 refers to death of George Howarth.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181667004

Why is this important? It states that George was in 1943 the oldest living Richmond player and that he played in 1889. Yet he is not on that list of players....
Click to expand...
Its always good to confirm with sources but Mark Penning's research is generally incredibly thorough and well sourced. It is also incredibly unlikely to ever be able to achieve 100% accuracy for this era due to incomplete records.

He has George Howarth as playing until 1888 and then noted as being cleared to play with East Richmond at the start of the 1889 season. He may well have remained connected to Richmond in a non-playing capacity rather than a playing one - he may possibly have played as a fill in but I can't see any clear evidence of this.
 
As per Tigerland Archive, I have Howarth from 1885-1888.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
I also have him on the General Committee for one year, that being 1889.

Side note:
I dispute the Sporting Globe assertion that he was the oldest living Richmond player (at the time of their 1943 publication).
In 1951 Annual Report the club notes it received "Christmas greetings from our oldest living player, Alf Hill, 90 years".
I have Hill as b: 1861, Richmond, d: 1957 Richmond, aged 95 and I have Howarth as b: 1864 d: 8 Aug 1943
 

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rbartlett said:
As per Tigerland Archive, I have Howarth from 1885-1888.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
I also have him on the General Committee for one year, that being 1889.

Side note:
I dispute the Sporting Globe assertion that he was the oldest living Richmond player (at the time of their 1943 publication).
In 1951 Annual Report the club notes it received "Christmas greetings from our oldest living player, Alf Hill, 90 years".
I have Hill as b: 1861, Richmond, d: 1957 Richmond, aged 95 and I have Howarth as b: 1864 d: 8 Aug 1943
Click to expand...


Comparing 1888 and 1892 pics and info suggested in the forum to date I have come up with:

Back Row: --, --, William Brown,--, --, W Stewart, Chris Syle, --, --, Banner, --, Alf Hill, --, --

Middle Row: Herbert Morton,Salton, --, H Trowbridge, Patrick O’Loughlin (captain), --, --

Front Row: Alf Searle, --, J Shore, J Stewart, --, Jimmy Coles, --

Any thoughts??
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Its always good to confirm with sources but Mark Penning's research is generally incredibly thorough and well sourced. It is also incredibly unlikely to ever be able to achieve 100% accuracy for this era due to incomplete records.

He has George Howarth as playing until 1888 and then noted as being cleared to play with East Richmond at the start of the 1889 season. He may well have remained connected to Richmond in a non-playing capacity rather than a playing one - he may possibly have played as a fill in but I can't see any clear evidence of this.
Click to expand...
My personal view is that Howarth did play in 1889 but that the list prepared probably did play, ie the list is incomplete not necessarily wrong. The pre VFL records to the extent they exist, are a nightmare and the study of them is far from complete.

In fact I am considering starting the process of trying to track down players careers rather than who played with teams, including VFA, pre VFL. Just a matter of getting the format right.
 
Harry Hook said:
Here's a very indistinct photo of the training ground of Richmond with players from the age in August 1933

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204379554

What is important is that on 16 September 1933 the Age identifies this team as the 1892 team and then names the people in the photograph.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19052713

Of this list 1889 players:

Team*: A. Banner (12), W. Brown (19), E. Burwood (19), H. Burwood (3), J. Coles (16),
J. Constable (2), A.J. Davis (19), G. Griffiths (18), Guthrie (1), J. Hall (2), A. Hill (6),
G. Hughes (4), Kemp (3), J. Kilmartin (12), Langdon (1), Lempriere (1), T. Lyons (19),
G. McLeod (17), McPhee (13), P. McSweeney (15), H. Morton (11), W. Murray (13),
P. O’Loughlin (18), J. Orr (1), T. Reddan (3), Ryan (1), A. Salton (3), A. Searle (18), J. Shore (17),
C. Stephens (17), J. Stewart (17), W. Stewart (3), C. Syle (18), H. Thomson (19), Trengrove (1),
H. Trowbridge (2), J. Warren (4), F. Wookey (7)
* 1/6: 5 missing; from Banner, Hughes, McLeod, McPhee, McSweeney, Murray, Shore.

W Stewart, J Stewart, are the only common players ( that seems a hell of a lot of player turnover and I am genuinely surprised at that). I suspect that something is askew.

I'm assuming also that the Age actually of 1933 actually went to then living members of the football fraternity who remembered that 1892 side and its players so had some contemporary evidence to support that identification.

You obviously need to get a clearer shot from the Age but evidence from then presumably living witnesses.

A question- is that 1889 attribution correct?
Click to expand...

Looking through the Trove page there is mention of the trainer Joe Watson...('who played for two seasons and has been a trainer for thirty six!) This is my grandfather and he and three of his brothers all played for the Tigers and one later captained the side. My grandfather lived in Punt Road opposite the ground at the Brunton avenue intersection and his ashes were spread over Punt Road oval. From our old family photos I can only add that there doesn't appear to be any of them in the photos...just not quite the right years so, no Watsons as players.
 
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