Review Round 11, 2024 - Hawthorn vs. Brisbane Lions

Who were your five best players against Hawthorn?

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Very disappointing end to our Melbourne trip yesterday afternoon, I won't be reading over the game and review threads (also haven't watched a replay) so my views have probably already been covered but a few of my observations from being there live.

1- We were not good re exiting crowded contested/stoppage situations, the Hawks always had a player or 2 spare outside the contest, we had too many sucked into the contest, Hawks play in that area of the game was so clean and quick, made our exiting contests strategy look 2nd rate... sadly it has been a problem for us ever since we became competitive.

2- Unless we have 100% defensive commitment we are found out by teams that play on quick and run past for handball receives... again sadly that has been a long standing weakness of ours.

3- Brandon Ryan is not up to AFL level footy, didn't like the selection and nothing on the day changed my mind, Sharp should have started with Ryan as the sub in case a tall went down.

4- Positives > we have a few good younger players coming through in Wilmot, Lohmann, Morris, L&W Ashcroft, Fletcher, Brain.

5- We saw Zac Bailey and Harris Andrews lining up at a foodery at the airport on the way home, my daughter and granddaughter went up and asked for a photo with them, they were very obliging, polite and happy to have a quick snap taken and a chat, both ladies were very chuffed.

6- Great weekend all things considered, food was exceptional, Wicked the Musical was fantastic, footy was entertaining but sad and the company and banter was elite, loved it.
 
Sanchez365 said:
I don't really see the comparison between Sharp v Bailey in this instance considering we are comparing a specialist wing to a HFF/Mid.

I think the combo of Sharp (Wing) / Ah Chee (HFF) is almost always going to be worse then Ah Chee (Wing) / Bailey (HFF).

There's a lot of on paper things with this team that just aren't translating into game day results for what ever reason.
Click to expand...
You make a point with combos . I think sometimes a player needs to be in regardless of combos due to what he gives to our structure ect., it's that simple.
Back to combos.
tbh I was thinking Bailey for Hippy and keep Ah Chee there as well. We just go small , play Rayner as a med/ tall, it was also mentioned by a few on here.

That was pre game thoughts and I still think well could it of been worse?
Bottom line is Sharp was giving us something the team has been missing and we then decided to pine him for 3 quarters of the game. I don't for one minute give Sharpie all the credit, but he definitely added to that style of play and that only leeds to more players being able to lower their eyes if you have someone leading around the park , creating holes , making efforts to cover in defense.
I could be wrong did Bailey play back as well yesterday , maybe on or around the wing. Players overlap areas, so tbh I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm overrating Sharps career on the last few games we've had, he didn't really get a chance to prove me wrong in this game.

I just get irritated when some players doing swa in the hard stuff, get to play every week and some don't, even though busting their boilers and improving the dynamics of the side and that stinks.
 
Kernel Kurtz said:
You make a point with combos . I think sometimes a player needs to be in regardless of combos due to what he gives to our structure ect., it's that simple.
Back to combos.
tbh I was thinking Bailey for Hippy and keep Ah Chee there as well. We just go small , play Rayner as a med/ tall, it was also mentioned by a few on here.

That was pre game thoughts and I still think well could it of been worse?
Bottom line is Sharp was giving us something the team has been missing and we then decided to pine him for 3 quarters of the game. I don't for one minute give Sharpie all the credit, but he definitely added to that style of play and that only leeds to more players being able to lower their eyes if you have someone leading around the park , creating holes , making efforts to cover in defense.
I could be wrong did Bailey play back as well yesterday , maybe on or around the wing. Players overlap areas, so tbh I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm overrating Sharps career on the last few games we've had, he didn't really get a chance to prove me wrong in this game.

I just get irritated when some players doing swa in the hard stuff, get to play every week and some don't, even though busting their boilers and improving the dynamics of the side and that stinks.
Click to expand...
Bailey was mostly rotating forward and mid. But being in the mids he was popping up in the back line a bit. I dont think he was actually playing a backline role properly for any serious minutes
 

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I'm not surprised. Just disappointed.

THE GOOD

Neale - tried his guts out and looked a class above.

Lohman - tried hard. Kicked a couple. Actually chased and made things happen.

Morris - not getting heaps of it but good hands and good set shot. Looks a perfect third forward. Find of the year for us.

Lester - thought he kept trying and took some nice marks

Berry - just fought a bit better than the other mids. Awesome pass to Lohman.

Oscar - thought he got on top of Meek who has been in good form.

THE BAD

Rayner - the thing is when he was involved he was good, held some strong marks. why does he disappear so much???

Rest of the midfield - it just isn't happening in there. Dunkley and McCluggage were fine on the stats sheet. They were just mediocre games though and the mids as a whole were smacked for large parts of the match

Fits and spurts - it's become a real problem. Surge then do nothing. Carlton. Collingwood. Freo. Geelong. We just don't seem to have the application or mental fortitude this year to hang in for a whole game or wrest back momentum.

The Ryan Trade? Not sure yet. Have liked his higlights, but boy he looked slow. And at his age there isn't really improvement to come. Our second pick this year with Levi coming in - this could be a real clanger.

THE UGLY

Our use of the sub - honestly how brain-dead are our match committee putting our best runner as sub? His one asset is mostly meaningless. Sharp was also building confidence really well. That won't be helped by becoming sub. Brain has also showed he can come on and perform really as sub. Reville was another option given his fitness levels.

Our inclusion of Ryan - the seconds followers called it (not me). he was not in good form. did not look confident at all despite the dream start. Our match committee totally and utterly wedded to a third tall.

Sicily - just do what you want mate, it's the lions. same old. no plan for him.

The moments - it's been all year hasn't it? Berry kicking in to the man on the mark in the first. Clugga's dodgy centre square handball. Neale's total miss-kick to go from us likely hitting the lead in the third to giving them a buffer. We just hand over key moments.

Charlie Cameron's right foot - overall his form is way better than the start of the season. His goalkicking has become laughable. The thing is, he is not even kicking them well or that far in the warm-up from. Seems like something is wrong with his foot? Only the club would know if it's right to keep playing him. But if a spell helps him get it fixed, or if there is any chance of longer term damage, he should be having a rest. 2024 is COOKED

I'm holding off on Bailey until seeing another game. He went to the bench a lot. But questions about his run and chase have merit.

WHERE TO FROM HERE

We need to be harder to play against. It starts with the midfield.

Dev deserves another go now that he is fit and firing. Clugga to the wing.

Ashcroft can't come in there fast enough.

Obviously the key is mindset. I had hoped with a bad start we could become the hunters. Interestingly we did in the Melbourne game (big outsiders) Gold Coast game (mass injuries so become outsiders) and Adelaide game to a degree (big outsiders). Other games we have been firm faves and been mostly way off it. It says to me that somehow we still think we are a top 4 side choc full of talent and if we turn up we are halfway to winning. That was true in 2023 at the gabba. It's a mile off it right now.

We need to use the bye to get back to basics. Accountability for our opponents. Defensive running. Tackling.

Show the way we tackled in the Melboure game, then picked through their attack with good offensive running.

Show the running back v gold coast, with Hipwood taking marks deep in defence.

2024 is gone but if we are going to take lessons from it they need to be lessons in real time and applied to games for the rest of the year. And to create benchmarks and expectations for 2025 that will determine selection.

What better time than now for Fagan to say right, no more core 20 best players. Doesn't matter what you did in 2023 or before that. If you do the team things right, you play. If you don't you can work on them in the 2s. It's not a punishment, it's about improving this team and rewarding effort.

Not holding by breath though.
 
Nathan Barley said:
Thought he played a bit on the wing
Click to expand...
I was considering that in the mid section as was a bit of swapping between, but from my end of the ground I wasnt quite sure who was lining up at some contests - it reminded me to book an appointment for my optometrist to check my prescription.

Either way I dont believe he played back
 
Big Sauce 21 said:
I don't think he was good at all. His clearances are those shank bat forwards. We went well in Q3 when Meek was off for the majority of it. Business as usual when he come back on and they dominate. I feel he offers very little in centre bounces. Our mids normally feed off 50/50 balls when it hits the deck from a neutral ruck contest.
Click to expand...

Those shank bats forwards (that I feel make up like a quarter of his clearances) are a lot better than losing the clearance full stop. I know some in the media got up in arms about it possibly costing us but I can’t recall a single time it’s directly led to a worse outcome let alone it happening consistently.

He was really good in the third before Meek went off and we had already cut the lead to nine. He did exactly what he needed to do which also helped Neale excel.
 
I go along with the idea that Charlie's going ok bar his goalkicking.

He's presented up the ground often enough and for him the effort has been equal to his best.

Obviously his set shots are poison at the moment and he should just give it off if he can. Likewise he doesn't seem to have the burst away from opponents that he did say three years ago. He gets shadowed more effectively out the back.

He could be carrying an injury, who would know but considering how the team has gone this year his effort and contribution has been above par. I wish he'd ditch the around the corners . How often has that worked for him ?
 
martinson said:
I go along with the idea that Charlie's going ok bar his goalkicking.

Obviously his set shots are poison at the moment and he should just give it off if he can. Likewise he doesn't seem to have the burst away from opponents that he did say three years ago. He gets shadowed more effectively out the back.

He could be carrying an injury, who would know but considering how the team has gone this year his effort and contribution has been above par. I wish he'd ditch the around the corners . How often has that worked for him ?
Click to expand...
Mmm, when Charlie was lining up for an early set shot yesterday on an angle from roughly 30-35 meters I said why isn't he going round the corner, more chance of kicking it that way than how his straight ons have been going... he went straight on and shanked it and didn't even register a score.

Goes to show great minds don't always think alike martin.:D
 
martinson said:
I go along with the idea that Charlie's going ok bar his goalkicking.

He's presented up the ground often enough and for him the effort has been equal to his best.

Obviously his set shots are poison at the moment and he should just give it off if he can. Likewise he doesn't seem to have the burst away from opponents that he did say three years ago. He gets shadowed more effectively out the back.

He could be carrying an injury, who would know but considering how the team has gone this year his effort and contribution has been above par. I wish he'd ditch the around the corners . How often has that worked for him ?
Click to expand...
It's interesting as he kicked a sizzling pass in the second quarter now that i think about it

so maybe it's somehow just all in his head.

seems weird to be consistently kicking so much shorter though
 
M Malice said:
Mmm, when Charlie was lining up for an early set shot yesterday on an angle from roughly 30-35 meters I said why isn't he going round the corner, more chance of kicking it that way than how his straight ons have been going... he went straight on and shanked it and didn't even register a score.

Goes to show great minds don't always think alike martin.:D
Click to expand...
When he goes around the corner from 35m+ he never kicks it whereas when he reverted to set shots in the longer ones last year he was kicking them often enough. He tries around the corners from 45m at the Gabba and they miss by metres.

Right now neither works though obviously on the shorter ones he has some hope with an around the corner on an angle. But his confidence is shot.
 
I'd say one of the big clear things is he doesnt seem to have clear plan and seems to alternate each shot whether he goes around the corner or not. Neither seem to be consistent. Which is weird when compared to his field kicking which was really good yesterday

He really seems to do some work on having a set routine for each position on the ground and get his head right for goal kicking. He's such a confidence player and the yips and pressure looks to be killing him (and us)
 
KissKiss said:
I'd say one of the big clear things is he doesnt seem to have clear plan and seems to alternate each shot whether he goes around the corner or not. Neither seem to be consistent. Which is weird when compared to his field kicking which was really good yesterday

He really seems to do some work on having a set routine for each position on the ground and get his head right for goal kicking. He's such a confidence player and the yips and pressure looks to be killing him (and us)
Click to expand...
his decision-making to me seemed fine on sunday. snapped the one he should have, drop punts for others. tbf one was quite close from a tightish angle. a couple were just total shanks though
 

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KissKiss said:
I'd say one of the big clear things is he doesnt seem to have clear plan and seems to alternate each shot whether he goes around the corner or not. Neither seem to be consistent. Which is weird when compared to his field kicking which was really good yesterday

He really seems to do some work on having a set routine for each position on the ground and get his head right for goal kicking. He's such a confidence player and the yips and pressure looks to be killing him (and us)
Click to expand...
I'm sure he nails them all the time at training. He used to be deadly with a snap after picking up a loose ball but that's been fairly spasmodic as well.
 
KissKiss said:
I'd say one of the big clear things is he doesnt seem to have clear plan and seems to alternate each shot whether he goes around the corner or not. Neither seem to be consistent. Which is weird when compared to his field kicking which was really good yesterday

He really seems to do some work on having a set routine for each position on the ground and get his head right for goal kicking. He's such a confidence player and the yips and pressure looks to be killing him (and us)
Click to expand...
There’s been times this year where I’ve seen him ask other players what they think he should do ie drop punt or snap. For a guy with his ability and goal kicking history that shows that it’s all mental. In other words every time he has a set shot right now and he has to think about it he’s shitting his pants whether it be a snap or drop punt.

He has definitely lost a yard too, whether that be through injury as well or simply age only time will probably tell us that.
 
Nathan Barley said:
Remember when the media was encouraging Joe to go the snap from straight in front but seems to never do it now
Click to expand...
Someone with access to the stats might refute this but my impression is that Joe's set shot success rate has been more than acceptable this year and he's kicked some clutch ones at crucial times as well.

He cops it every time he has a ping from outside 50 but he's one player who has a reasonable hope of nailing those.
 
martinson said:
Someone with access to the stats might refute this but my impression is that Joe's set shot success rate has been more than acceptable this year and he's kicked some clutch ones at crucial times as well.

He cops it every time he has a ping from outside 50 but he's one player who has a reasonable hope of nailing those.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think he just needs to rethink the silly shots on the run
 
Elixuh said:
It hurts because there is barely anyone in the VFL we can blame fages for not playing. Maybe brain.
Click to expand...
While I agree in some way the cupboard is a little bare if we are talking about Rayner then I think young Morris is playing the 3rd tall forward, or medium tall forward and getting score on the board each game so far. One could argue he has taken that role which we all defended Rayner in. Then we have Rayner's midfield minutes, well Lyons is going great guns in the middle, Dev Robinson had a good game back and Tunstill keeps knocking away. While Cam can play both the forward and the midfield and arguably the other cant play most positions I think we can get better output and hopefully 'shock' Cam into some form.
 
martinson said:
Someone with access to the stats might refute this but my impression is that Joe's set shot success rate has been more than acceptable this year and he's kicked some clutch ones at crucial times as well.

He cops it every time he has a ping from outside 50 but he's one player who has a reasonable hope of nailing those.
Click to expand...


Not sure on set shots but I read this about our accuracy today from the above article. Interesting Charlie is still over 50%. Be interesting to see how many have also failed to register a score.

After getting such tremendous output from Daniher (61.37 at 62 per cent), Cameron (59.27 at 69 per cent), Eric Hipwood (41.29 at 59 per cent) and Lincoln McCarthy (28.11 at 72 per cent), those same players have misfired badly this year.

In 2024, Daniher (20.21 at 49 per cent), Cameron (18.16 at 53 per cent), Hipwood (11.10 at 52 per cent) and McCarthy (8.9 at 47 per cent) have all suffered spectacular drop-offs in goalkicking efficiency from last season, and it shows in Brisbane’s 4-6-1 record.
 
Kernel Kurtz said:
You make a point with combos . I think sometimes a player needs to be in regardless of combos due to what he gives to our structure ect., it's that simple.
Back to combos.
tbh I was thinking Bailey for Hippy and keep Ah Chee there as well. We just go small , play Rayner as a med/ tall, it was also mentioned by a few on here.

That was pre game thoughts and I still think well could it of been worse?
Bottom line is Sharp was giving us something the team has been missing and we then decided to pine him for 3 quarters of the game. I don't for one minute give Sharpie all the credit, but he definitely added to that style of play and that only leeds to more players being able to lower their eyes if you have someone leading around the park , creating holes , making efforts to cover in defense.
I could be wrong did Bailey play back as well yesterday , maybe on or around the wing. Players overlap areas, so tbh I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm overrating Sharps career on the last few games we've had, he didn't really get a chance to prove me wrong in this game.

I just get irritated when some players doing swa in the hard stuff, get to play every week and some don't, even though busting their boilers and improving the dynamics of the side and that stinks.
Click to expand...
The bolded is exactly what Fages does, he just doesn't see things the same way as you (or what appears to be most supporters on this site).

From the 6-7 years he has been our coach, our structure has been:

  • 3 tall forwards + ruck at all times
  • 3 tall defenders at all times
  • 3 core midfielders
  • 2 core fwd / mid rotations
  • Nearside and Farside wingers

It's maybe not that different, but if I am looking our list of players in comparison to that structure and i go:

  • Danniher / Hipwood / Gardiner
  • Andrews / Payne / Lester
  • Neale / Dunkley / Ashcroft
  • McCluggage / Bailey
  • Berry (nearside) / Fletcher (farside)

These are the best players we have to fill those roles in all those positions. With injuries Berry has moved into Ashcrofts role leaving a wing spot open that Sharp / Reville have been sharing. With Bailey's return it was probably a lineball decision on which of Sharp / Reville should be dropped, both have played well, but Reville has far better disposal at this point and that seems to be the decision they went with. If you were making an argument that Reville shouldn't have played for Sharp, its hard without hindsight to say that. Our wingers in this structure's main job is to act as the defensive sweeper behind the contest, so we normally see it as an extension of our main midfield core. I think the coaching staff see Reville as having midfield potential (which we saw him getting minutes in the last quarter of the Richmond game), so clearly they think he is more like for like in that regard. Sharp would definitely be the next best farside winger after Fletcher, but the third relief winger in our structure is a fwd / wing role that Ah Chee is far more suited too then Sharp.

After that, everyone else on the team has to fall in around those guys, and they are essentially picked on talent as the above list of players should be what holds our core structure together.

In the game against the hawks, they were winning clearances so clean they just stopped manning up our defensive side winger and instead dropped theirs behind the ball and allowed (I assume, hard to tell on TV) Sicily to zone off and be the loose intercepter. Its something you see multiple teams do against us (Geelong prelim a few years ago stands out as a big one). The problem we have structure wise is that our defensive side winger doesn't have the license to make any plays from that position being completely free, and we don't have the ruck stocks in Oscar / Danniher to tap the ball to that extra at the contest. It's probably also a dangerous place to tap the ball, as if that tap gets sharked and the oppo mid can get their arms free from the defensive sweepers tackle, they are now moving out of the front of the contest with pace. Worpel and Newcombe did that very well against us (standing up in a tackle to release players) and the extra they had behind the contest helped them run in waves past us. It's the classic blueprint to beat Brisbane and they scored 9.3 from stoppages and an additional 5.5 from the defensive half. We have been beaten in stoppage points 4 times this year (including this game) and they have all been losses (Freo, Geelong, Collingwood and now Hawks). All teams with bulk inside mids that can triple team Neale and control first possession.

In addition, I thought Berry and Dunkley weren't particularly clean with their clearance in and under work, and I have been a big proponent of sending Rayner in there, which Fages tried for the first half but Rayner just kind of wandered aimlessly. I would never throw him out of the team because he is clearly our best player, but it feels sometimes our mids go "Neale is here, better leave it to him to make the play". Neale is such a good player he can almost solely win us games as he did with that MASSIVE 3rd Q, but an entire midfield he does not make.

Our midfield mix was:

Neale (25 CBAs)
Berry (20)
Dunkley (18)
McCluggage (14)
Rayner (4)

The Hawks was
Nash (18)
Newcombe (18)
Worpel (18)
Day (16)
Moore (8)
Mackenzie (3)

Our midfield depth has been a problem for years and Fagan hasn't really committed to trying to build from within in that department very much. IMO we need to define a new role for Neale (eg get him resting as a forward pocket under Danniher) and spread some of his midfield minutes to change the mix up in there. I have noticed we have been dropping Dunkley forward a bit more since Berry moved inside, but he hasn't really been very effectual up forward (probably because he hasn't really trained much with that group of players).

The flip side is that Fages recognises that guys like Bailey / Rayner will make our midfields defensive capabilities even worse then they already are, and so we are stuck in this position until we can recruit someone to fill our that midfield depth. However I just don't see why Fages would change up his entire coaching philosophy after half a bad season, doesn't seem his modus operandi.
 
Squizz89 said:


Not sure on set shots but I read this about our accuracy today from the above article. Interesting Charlie is still over 50%. Be interesting to see how many have also failed to register a score.

After getting such tremendous output from Daniher (61.37 at 62 per cent), Cameron (59.27 at 69 per cent), Eric Hipwood (41.29 at 59 per cent) and Lincoln McCarthy (28.11 at 72 per cent), those same players have misfired badly this year.

In 2024, Daniher (20.21 at 49 per cent), Cameron (18.16 at 53 per cent), Hipwood (11.10 at 52 per cent) and McCarthy (8.9 at 47 per cent) have all suffered spectacular drop-offs in goalkicking efficiency from last season, and it shows in Brisbane’s 4-6-1 record.
Click to expand...


You have to be pretty stupid not to consider complete misses in goal kicking accuracy
 
Squizz89 said:


Not sure on set shots but I read this about our accuracy today from the above article. Interesting Charlie is still over 50%. Be interesting to see how many have also failed to register a score.

After getting such tremendous output from Daniher (61.37 at 62 per cent), Cameron (59.27 at 69 per cent), Eric Hipwood (41.29 at 59 per cent) and Lincoln McCarthy (28.11 at 72 per cent), those same players have misfired badly this year.

In 2024, Daniher (20.21 at 49 per cent), Cameron (18.16 at 53 per cent), Hipwood (11.10 at 52 per cent) and McCarthy (8.9 at 47 per cent) have all suffered spectacular drop-offs in goalkicking efficiency from last season, and it shows in Brisbane’s 4-6-1 record.
Click to expand...

I posted about it in the stats thread but outside of gimme goals 20m out directly in front Charlie is going at about 19% accuracy in front of the sticks.
 
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