Since 2006

[a_fighting_fury]

FFS getting sick of these doomsday threads. Two weeks ago we were praising him for his exemplary 1st round picks.

But the BF Phantom Drafts have also nailed 1st round picks, so that's hardly an accomplishment that deserves praising an AFL recruiter.

I think a recruiters true worth ought to be measured on picks after pick 20.

 

[austyn08]

Also, FJ didn't select Hislop. That was a TW special.

Not so sure about that unless TW saw his limited amount of, pretty much crap, games for the bombers. Hislop was picked in the 2006 draft, the same year FJ took over our recruiting role. Jackson would of had detailed information on him that year, from the juniors, and would of been the only one in our club with an informed opinion. I not going to say who had the last say but FJ would of been asked.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

I think your being pretty convenient with the facts there roar, griff astbury Dea are all senior players and in other environments would be playing ea week, we have depth in those posts, does that mean FJ screwed up, or do we apply your same warped view to ess cocking up last years r1 pick coz joe daniher hasnt got a game yet...cant have it both ways mate, be objective

Griff KPF or KPD , Astbury KPD , Dea lock down or offensive defender .
Chaplin , Pettard and A Edwards all traded into the club for the roles these blokes are likely to play ??? So I don't think it is conveniently dodgying the facts .
Compared to other recruiters FJ has a poor record of post 20 picks.

 

[CoggaRules]

Outside Cotchin & Martin at picks 2 & 3 the rest of the list of picks by Jackson, that are still around are all pick 6 or higher as the following shows:

2006 - Jack pick 13, Edwards pick 26,
2007 - Cotchin pick 2 Rance pick 18 2008 - TV pick 9, 2009- Martin pick 3, Griffiths pick 19, Astbury pick 35, Dea pick 44, 2010 - Conca pick 6, Batchelor pick 30, Helbig pick 47, 2011 - Ellis pick 15, Elton pick 26, Arnott pick 55
2012 - Vlastuin pick 9 , McIntosh pick 31, McBean pick 33, Macdonough pick 42

But lets not let that get in the way of a good rant now.



King Grimes Houli Petterd & O'Hanlon are all quality PSD/rookie picks that we've taken under Jackson who make up for the misses that have occured that late in the draft pool. I mean anyone who is expecting players who are effectively the 100+ players taken in the drafts to all be stars is kidding themselves as it's just not going to happen.

The issue with this is that you are making a hell of alot of assumptions here RT. I will sit on the fence and see what unfolds re. he has last 3 drafts under Dimma. Before Dimma, Wallets shopping list can be thrown into the bin and burnt...

 

[tigs2010]

Not quite right Tigs , I have very intimate knowledge of this which suggests Richmond's scouts outnumbered many/most other clubs, who clearly outperformed us at the draft at the table at that time.

Big difference between volunteer scouts and actual recruiters that we pay for a living. With only one we can't possibly have out numbered any clubs. You have to pay to get quality and we went/forced to go the cheap option and rely on a few junior watchers opinions. Yer it's better than nothing but doesn't beat having blokes doing it as a full time job analysing each player closely.

Do you know why we only had one? Was it lack of funds or we just didn't understand how important this area of the club was? I'm presuming it's the first.

I'm only going to judge him from 2009 when he had proper help and a lot of it is too early to judge and we've been struck by injury to a lot of them. The one howler to me was taking Batchelor over Parker when it was bloody obvious and is still obvious we lack midfielders.

We still need to pump a shit load more money into this area.

 

[tigs2010]

Not so sure about that unless TW saw his limited amount of, pretty much crap, games for the bombers. Hislop was picked in the 2006 draft, the same year FJ took over our recruiting role. Jackson would of had detailed information on him that year, from the juniors, and would of been the only one in our club with an informed opinion. I not going to say who had the last say but FJ would of been asked.

I know for a fact Jackson didn't make that selection. Terry was topping up. FJ also didn't want us to trade the other pick for Thomson because he wanted Sloane. If it wasn't for muppets running the place we'd have Sloane and Scott Selwood running around. (Pretty sure Sloane lasted to the pick we traded to Port)

 

[Harmichael]

FMD - didn't know we coulda had Sloane as well. Goddamnit. ****ing Wallace.

 

[Calcium Man]

Pretty sure it has been stated by RFC off previously , that Morris was the work of Hartley , Edwards I will grant although he was taken in 2006 only just after Jackson joined the club IIRC and had been previously identified ???
Batch would struggle to be in our best 25 .
Look through other lists and there post 20 picks clearly out do ours.
With the average time spand of a career you can't maintain a list , far less build a list without nailing 2-3 draft picks at least a year .

2006 -riewoldt and Edwards
2007 - Cotchin, Rance and King
2008 - Vickery
2009 - Martin and Grimes (Note Griff, Astbury and Dea have all had at least two years ruined with injury)
2010 - Conca (You don't count Batch yet and i have my reservations but i think he is best 25 and Helbig also had a couple of years ruined by injury)
2011 - Ellis and Morris (I believe Hartley would have been heavily involved but 2nd teir comps are the domain of recruiters)
2012 - Vlastuin

But the last three years especially are hard to fully judge but apart from 2008, which is very disappointing considering the quality after pick 20, he has hit your target of 2 players a year.


The problem is how much is laid at Francis' feet and how much poor mismanagement? In 2007 we trade for McMahon and Morton? It's well known one of those picks was Scott Selwood. 2008 Wallace targeted talls and ready made mids in Thompson and hislop, Post was a massive flop. Was Francis directed to get a tall at 26? And if Tigs is right and he wanted Sloane at the pick we gave up for Hislop Francis is a genius.

I do think Francis has been poor with the rookie list. We just haven't found anything of quality aside from King who is serviceable not quality. I think the club directive should be to use it on VFL, SANFL and WAFL players. And we got one too many recycled players this year possibly two and had we got a Dwyer instead of a petterd or Edwards we'd be better off.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Big fan of FJ's work. Think as the list and team gets progressively stronger and he has less holes to fill, we will see his true value. When a specific need is identified (ie a crumbing forward or a pacy outside mid), he will have the year to search the country high and low for the best player to fill that need rather than drafting based on 'best available' due to trying to fill multiple needs.

Also a fan of Dimma and his desire to draft players with the right character/attitude. Conca, Ellis and Vlastuin all look like rippers on the field but appear to have great attitudes as well - great players and great characters ultimately leads to a better culture IMO

 

[_RT_]

Grimes being the exception, we have not got one non top 20 pick in our best 22, possibly best 30. That is poor and a significant reason IMO why we are not comfortably in the top 4 ATM.
Houli, Pettard, Morris , Chaplin, Maric, Edwards and Grigg are all the work of Blair Hartley.

Edwards Batchelor Astbury & Dea would all be comfortably in the top 30 at the club, in fact I'd suggest top 25. Unfortunately a combination of injury and poor form has seen 3 of them struggle for regular senior appearances.

I'd also suggest from my earlier post that there is enough quality in the selections that FJ has made over the last 3 draft periods to get us into the top 4 down the track. The issue we have at the moment is that most of those selections are still in the early stages of their development and aren't at a level yet where we can call on them to carry us through a season. That will come though, just like it came with sides like Geelong Hawthorn Sydney & Collingwood.

 

[_RT_]

Griff KPF or KPD , Astbury KPD , Dea lock down or offensive defender .
Chaplin , Pettard and A Edwards all traded into the club for the roles these blokes are likely to play ??? So I don't think it is conveniently dodgying the facts .
Compared to other recruiters FJ has a poor record of post 20 picks.

Have you forgotten that all 3 have had rather significant injuries in their time at the club, that has a)stifled their development and b) forced us to recruit mature aged cover for these guys why they continue their development. If we didn't go out and recruit those guys we would have been forced to play younger and less developed kids in their places and people would be screaming about how we're ruining the development of the kids by playing them before they are ready.

 

[Bojangles17]

Have you forgotten that all 3 have had rather significant injuries in their time at the club, that has a)stifled their development and b) forced us to recruit mature aged cover for these guys why they continue their development. If we didn't go out and recruit those guys we would have been forced to play younger and less developed kids in their places and people would be screaming about how we're ruining the development of the kids by playing them before they are ready.

no he didnt, he s been fairly selective with the truth in trying to build whats a fairly flimsy case

 

[Madtiger2006]

FFS getting sick of these doomsday threads. Two weeks ago we were praising him for his exemplary 1st round picks.

Same here. All the negative baggers showing their lack of knowledge of the current list due to not going to enough games. 6 weeks ago we heard nothing from them but after a couple of average efforts with a couple of 5 goal losses(no we didn't lose by 100 points) and now we need a rebuild.

We are on the right track. The players need to be consistently hard at it and that will come in time

 

[SumTingWong]

I know for a fact Jackson didn't make that selection. Terry was topping up. FJ also didn't want us to trade the other pick for Thomson because he wanted Sloane. If it wasn't for muppets running the place we'd have Sloane and Scott Selwood running around. (Pretty sure Sloane lasted to the pick we traded to Port)

Yep, Thomson traded for pick 42, Sloane went at 44. I'm now physically ill

 

[nobulltiger]

No point complaining about who we missed at what picks!

It comes down to development, other clubs have been better than us in that area! Good to see we have addressed the issue and brought in williams

 

[Punt Road Tiger]

Pretty Good win last night! FJ needs to be congratulated for selecting Vlastuin, he was on his radar for 2 years and was not distracted by other available players that could of influenced his final decision, if it was not for FJ, Vlastuin would of slipped to pick 15 to 20.

If that had happened then posters like the OP would be bagging FJ for letting him slip!

Lets See Conca Ellis & Grimes (All FJ picks) all should be back in this side to replace our mature recruit depth players.

 

[Wallaby]

TRy this:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_draft_summaries?year=2005&t=N&s=G

Enter in the year, push the button. It shows how each side performed in each years draft. Click on any team, and it gives you the details of that team's picks. I thought our 2005 Draft was the worst ever, but it's possible Freo's 2006 was worse. Or Collibngwood in 2007. Or..... there's plenty of disasters.

Lots of interesting stuff. I reckon we are about middle of the road. Interestingly, I reckon the 2 teams that have performed worst in the Draft since 2005 are Saints (no surprise) and...........Swans. After 2003 the Swans next 4 first-round draftpicks played this number of games - 0 (pick 11 2003), 0 (Pick 15 2006), 11 (Pick 11 2007), 2 (Pick 12 2008). None of these players are still with the club.

Go figure. It just proves that you DON'T need to draft wonderfully to have a successful side. Good Rookie picks (Jack), good late round picks (White, Bird), good trading (Mumford, Richards) and GOOD PLAYER TRAINING AND DEVELOPMENT.

 

[TigerTime88]

We have taken our KPP in the second round eg. Griff, Elton, Astbury...

This means you won't see how good these drafts are until these guys fully develop and probably doesn't make the draft look as good as it is atm.

As Calcium Man said you are also underestimating the fact he has NAILED every first round pick while other clubs have selected duds around him.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Have you forgotten that all 3 have had rather significant injuries in their time at the club, that has a)stifled their development and b) forced us to recruit mature aged cover for these guys why they continue their development. If we didn't go out and recruit those guys we would have been forced to play younger and less developed kids in their places and people would be screaming about how we're ruining the development of the kids by playing them before they are ready.

Not at all RT if you read the post in which mine was replying to you would see the reasoning players were not getting a game was due to abundant depth in these areas and that these players would be getting elsewhere .
Did I fail to acknowledge they have been injured **** no .
Do I believe they are up to playing with most other sides no .

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

no he didnt, he s been fairly selective with the truth in trying to build whats a fairly flimsy case

Not flimsy case at all Bo , people continue to accept poor performance with low draft picks when in fact it is the performance of recruiters with low draft picks that allows better sides to remain better sides . I am yet to see anything which suggests Framcis Jackson is capable of consistantly make good decisions with anything but favorably high draft picks .
Selective possibly but that is more to do with what I choose not to reveil, not selective choosing what is public knowledge .

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Edwards Batchelor Astbury & Dea would all be comfortably in the top 30 at the club, in fact I'd suggest top 25. Unfortunately a combination of injury and poor form has seen 3 of them struggle for regular senior appearances.

I'd also suggest from my earlier post that there is enough quality in the selections that FJ has made over the last 3 draft periods to get us into the top 4 down the track. The issue we have at the moment is that most of those selections are still in the early stages of their development and aren't at a level yet where we can call on them to carry us through a season. That will come though, just like it came with sides like Geelong Hawthorn Sydney & Collingwood.

When was the last time you seen one of those clubs take a Derickx , Webberly , Nason , Taylor , Macdonald type within a couple of years , especially after publicity stating the club was placing a large emphasis on character and foot skills ??

 

[Rayzorwire]

I know for a fact Jackson didn't make that selection. Terry was topping up. FJ also didn't want us to trade the other pick for Thomson because he wanted Sloane. If it wasn't for muppets running the place we'd have Sloane and Scott Selwood running around. (Pretty sure Sloane lasted to the pick we traded to Port)

Yep, tigs, you have to wonder how Gary March could go from threatening the coach and players with 'finals or else' in late 2008, to authorising a complete rebuild on the same list he expected to be playing finals in 2009.

Have to be close to being the greatest President's back-flip in footballing history.

Helps if you have someone who actually knows something about footy in the role.

 

[_RT_]

When was the last time you seen one of those clubs take a Derickx , Webberly , Nason , Taylor , Macdonald type within a couple of years , especially after publicity stating the club was placing a large emphasis on character and foot skills ??

Geelong
1999 - Spriggs pick 15 64 games, Ezra Bray pick 17 0 games, Daniel Foster pick 23 17 games
2001- Gardiner pick 23 51 games, Playfair pick 41 52 games, Carrazzo rookie pick 5 0 games
2003 - Tenace pick 7 59 games, Thurley pick 22 7 games, Spencer pick 42 2 games
Over 5 drafts Geelong took these players with early picks who all failed to deliver, so while they did get the success stories during that time they had their fair share of failures while rebuilding their list too.

Collingwood
2004 - Egan pick 10 27 games, Rusling pick 23 17 games, Iaccobucci pick 55 4 games
2005 - Stanley pick 21 5 games, Cook pick 23 14 games, Anthony pick 37 43 games, Iles PSD pick 2 7 games
2007 - McCarthy pick 31 18 games(tragically passed away too soon but still failed at Pies) Thoolen pick 47 0 games, Barham pick 61 7 games
2008 - Blight pick 45 0 games, Rounds pick 46 6 games
Again over a 5 year period the Pies had their fair share of failures while having success as well while rebuilding their list between GF appearances.

Hawthorn
2005 - Dowler pick 6 16 games, Muston pick 22 13 games, Tuck pick 38 20 games
2006 - Thorp pick 6 2 games, Morton pick 33 22 games, Moss pick 56 14 games
Started their rebuild the same year TW started his and while they had success they also had failures.

Sydney
2007 - Veszpremi pick 11 11 games, Meredith pick 26 16 games
2008 - Johnston pick 12 2 games, Heath pick 61 2 games
2009 - Sumner pick 54 1 game, Dennis-Lane pick 55 19 games
Same again a number of draft picks that have failed to deliver, majority of their success has come through smart trading of picks/players for recycled types to keep their list up there.

So there are examples of all 4 sides failing at the draft with a fair amount of picks while rebuilding their lists. The difference between us and them is that those sides had full time recruiters through that time, while we have had a part time Jackson and volunteers for first 3 years and have only recently started to put money into recruiting to try and bring us up to the level the better clubs operate at. Amazing that in the last 3 years where we have had money spent on recruiting our results at the draft and trade table have been much better than they were when Jackson first took over.

 

[_RT_]

Not at all RT if you read the post in which mine was replying to you would see the reasoning players were not getting a game was due to abundant depth in these areas and that these players would be getting elsewhere .
Did I fail to acknowledge they have been injured **** no .
Do I believe they are up to playing with most other sides no .

Last year when Astbury Griffiths and Dea were injured we didn't have the depth to cover them and were forced to play unready kids to try and fill the void. To address this we went out and recruited Chaplin Edwards and Petterd to help build the depth in these areas so that we could a) allow Griffiths Astbury and Dea to recover and get back to playing without putting them under pressure to perform and b) to stop us playing the 1st/2nd year kids before they are ready which we were forced to last year.

I have no doubt that if we didn't have Chaplin and Edwards in particular we would have seen Griffiths(played round 1) and Astbury a lot more than we have so far. Lets not forget that at other clubs there are a number of talls who have been at their clubs longer than our guys who are only now starting to get a decent crack at it. Astbury Griffiths and Dea have plenty of time on their sides, I mean if we can give McGuane 100 games and several years then surely we can afford to give these guys at least half as long before we become concerned