Socceroos The Australian Coaching Philosophy is wrong

[juss]

I have had these views for a while, so this is not a knee-jerk reaction to recent results.
This recent push of Australian coaches for the national team is a detriment to our performances and development. Recent Aussie coaches Ange and Arnold have been disappointing, and while we did have some Asian Cup success 4 years ago under Ange, that was largely due to the fact the tournament was in Australia and apart from Japan, South Korea was the only other reasonable opponent in it.

For some reason, the national team hires managers on the back of a handful of years of A-league success. This is a joke. The A-league at the moment is at best a feeder league as any young player with potential inevitably moves on eventually. Australian coaches are not highly sought on the national stage because you very rarely see an Aussie manager coaching other national teams or international clubs. Why? Because they aren't that good due to the A-league being such a young competition.

Instead of hiring Australians first, we should be looking at European or South American coaches, those coaches that have coached for decades or come from countries/systems that have decades of elite football competition (either domestic or international) behind them.

Yes, Verbeek and Osieck failed, however we went bottom of the barrel international here with barely anyone having heard of these guys. The one time we went with a well credentialed international coach in Guus Hiddink we made the round of 16 in a world cup, pushed the eventual winners Italy passed 90 minutes creating chances to score, and ultimately lost due to a controversial penalty.

I'm not pushing for an international coach like Pim or Ozzy just for the sake of their passport status, but why Football Australia does not spend the money to hire a well credentialed European or South American international or club coach is beyond me. There is a reason the best coaches in the world come from these continents and that's because they are steeped in football history, the sport is in their blood and that comes with quality. Australians are too new to the professional game to produce elite managers yet.

Money talks, and while not everyone is available at any given time, the conversations should be had years in advance. Yes the issue is development and we need to create a bottom up approach from grassroots, but the top of the tree must have the best available leading the team. This Australian for the sake of Australian is detrimental to any hopes we have of winning Cups and performing somewhat well at World Cups.

 

[giggler99]

The FFA doesn't spend the money because the FFA don't have any money for the demands that come with hiring a top class international manager! Did you think Guss Hiddick wanted to manage the Socceroos because he cares for Australian Football and wanted to spend time in the Aussie Sun? Why do you think we only hired Van Marwijk for the World Cup and not beyond? Managers like Venerables in the late 90's and Guss virtually drained the coffers dry of any funds! In venerbales case so much it rendered Soccer Australia struggling to pay its staff at the time until finally it was wound up and declared bankrupt five, six years later (other issues contributed too of course). Luckily for Guus we had the added bonus of World Cup prize Money to pay him.

These managers come with price tags! big price tags considering most would have to make a sacrifice coming half way around the world to manage. Price tags the FFA can't afford, unless you have a spare 3 or 4 million plus to donate per year.

 

[juss]

The FFA doesn't spend the money because the FFA don't have any money for the demands that come with hiring a top class international manager! Did you think Guss Hiddick wanted to manage the Socceroos because he cares for Australian Football and wanted to spend time in the Aussie Sun? Why do you think we only hired Van Marwijk for the World Cup and not beyond? Managers like Venerables in the late 90's and Guss virtually drained the coffers dry of any funds! In venerbales case so much it rendered Soccer Australia struggling to pay its staff at the time until finally it was wound up and declared bankrupt five, six years later (other issues contributed too of course). Luckily for Guus we had the added bonus of World Cup prize Money to pay him.

These managers come with price tags! big price tags considering most would have to make a sacrifice coming half way around the world to manage. Price tags the FFA can't afford, unless you have a spare 3 or 4 million plus to donate per year.

If the sports governing body is struggling for a few million to pay for a top coach then the spending priorities are wrong. They have money, its where they choose to spend it.

 

[Guido]

Arnold is on $1.4mil per year *as a base*, minimum 4 years. Three quarters of the way to a pretty reasonable European coach (who be willing to take slight unders for the chance at coaching at a World Cup) I'd say. Both Hiddink and Van Marwijk were on about a million for 9-12 months work, tho Hiddink's were in 2006 dollars, so being in the market for a strong international option with $1.5-$2mil isn't outside the realms of possibility.

Arnold's been in the job about 6 months? So even if we lost the next two group matches, we'd be facing a $5mil payout to look elsewhere. Lucky as a code we have unlimited resources to piss up against a wall..

Unlike the OP, I'm not dead set against giving Aussie coaches a chance as a rule - but if you've got someone like Arnold who would have been dying to get another crack at the job to prove himself and would undoubtedly accept unders, why not offer something like $800k P.A. and 2 years? If he wins an Asian cup or goes well above expectations in those two years, then you have an auto trigger at the higher rate for the World Cup cycle. If things go disastrously, then the payout is barely a million, with plenty left in the kitty to look at alternatives for the next few years.

We have a grade A dimwit running the code, and the sad thing is that he'd be earning even more than Arnold to make these kind of idiotic decisions.

 

[giggler99]

Arnold is on $1.4mil per year *as a base*, minimum 4 years. Three quarters of the way to a pretty reasonable European coach (who be willing to take slight unders for the chance at coaching at a World Cup) I'd say. Both Hiddink and Van Marwijk were on about a million for 9-12 months work, tho Hiddink's were in 2006 dollars, so being in the market for a strong international option with $1.5-$2mil isn't outside the realms of possibility.

Arnold's been in the job about 6 months? So even if we lost the next two group matches, we'd be facing a $5mil payout to look elsewhere. Lucky as a code we have unlimited resources to piss up against a wall..

Unlike the OP, I'm not dead set against giving Aussie coaches a chance as a rule - but if you've got someone like Arnold who would have been dying to get another crack at the job to prove himself and would undoubtedly accept unders, why not offer something like $800k P.A. and 2 years? If he wins an Asian cup or goes well above expectations in those two years, then you have an auto trigger at the higher rate for the World Cup cycle. If things go disastrously, then the payout is barely a million, with plenty left in the kitty to look at alternatives for the next few years.

We have a grade A dimwit running the code, and the sad thing is that he'd be earning even more than Arnold to make these kind of idiotic decisions.

Sure but you also have to think about the expenses top class overseas manager will cost and need. e.g accomadation preferably a house, travel expenses both domestic and overseas and not only for himself for his family also, if he has kids enrollment to schools and other expenses they would need. then there is also the prospect of the new managers wanting his own staff which the federation would also need to falk and accommodate. it may sound just only that little bit more but adding all that up in expenses will exceed quite a few millions. plus working in Australia the tax man will take a fair chunk so not ideal to stay long term either.

Arnold wouldn't need any of those expenses (apart from paying his taxes) so his wage would seem appropriate in comparison. You sure his on $1.4M? you have a source for that?
I know Ange was probably only on around 800K it wasn't that much more than when he was at Victory which was around 600-650K if I remember. May have went up quite a bit when he won the Asian Cup through.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

The FFA doesn't spend the money because the FFA don't have any money for the demands that come with hiring a top class international manager! Did you think Guss Hiddick wanted to manage the Socceroos because he cares for Australian Football and wanted to spend time in the Aussie Sun? Why do you think we only hired Van Marwijk for the World Cup and not beyond? Managers like Venerables in the late 90's and Guss virtually drained the coffers dry of any funds! In venerbales case so much it rendered Soccer Australia struggling to pay its staff at the time until finally it was wound up and declared bankrupt five, six years later (other issues contributed too of course). Luckily for Guus we had the added bonus of World Cup prize Money to pay him.

These managers come with price tags! big price tags considering most would have to make a sacrifice coming half way around the world to manage. Price tags the FFA can't afford, unless you have a spare 3 or 4 million plus to donate per year.

This is true but FFA still need to be smart about who they appoint.

Van Marwijk was a terrible appointment. If he wasnt going to stay, he should of never been appointed in the first place.

I understand that sometimes short term appointments (Hiddink) work.

But this was not a Hiddink situation because Van Marwijk was given little time to implememt his coaching methods before the tournament.

FFA just pissed away money to a foreign coach for nothing. Australia were never going to get out of their world cup group no matter who they had as coach.

 

[giggler99]

If the sports governing body is struggling for a few million to pay for a top coach then the spending priorities are wrong. They have money, its where they choose to spend it.

arr... no they don't have the money! Look how the A-league is promoted or how the game is funded from grassroots up which is wrong the Governing body relies on those funds to virtually pay all the national teams as well as the A-league expenses. where as, it should be funded the other way around such as the AFL do. The only other way of getting outside money is by quallifying for the World Cup every four years which brings in prize money, television money and major sponsorships which has been a struggle of late too.

The FFA isn't the AFL they don't have millions to burn willi nilly.

 

[juss]

arr... no they don't have the money! Look how the A-league is promoted or how the game is funded from grassroots up which is wrong the Governing body relies on those funds to virtually pay all the national teams as well as the A-league expenses. where as, it should be funded the other way around such as the AFL do. The only other way of getting outside money is by quallify for the World Cup every four years which brings in prize money, television money and major sponsorships which has been a struggle of late too.

The FFA isn't the AFL they don't have millions to burn willi nilly.

I’m not saying burn money on a Kangaroo mascot, this is important and should be a top priority. The money is there, it’s about how much they allocate in the budget.

 

[giggler99]

I’m not saying burn money on a Kangaroo mascot, this is important and should be a top priority. The money is there, it’s about how much they allocate in the budget.

There is a only so much that goes around mate, The FFA have a lot of expenses with all its National teams not just the Socceroos but the Matildas, Olyroos Joey's both men and women etc.. As well as funding its domestic leagues. That berdan may ease a little with the A-league going independent from next season but it still won't change anything as long as the game is funded from the bottom up, That's where the major issues lies but atm its the only way to bring in the funds unless the A-league gets a Billion dollar TV deal which isn't gonna happen.

You think if the FFA had the money they wouldn't go after a Lippi or a Klimsman? The other problem is your also competing with the likes of China and the middle east who just throw money at these managers to the likes that no amount of money pit we have would be able to compete with. So its not as easy as saying look we have millions now come coach us.

 

[Guido]

You sure his on $1.4M? you have a source for that?

http://footballtoday.news/football-media-watch/graham-arnold-a-league-matildas

Quotes an Australian article that's behind a pay wall, below link should hopefully work.

https://outline.com/zLVupv

"Arnold, 54, will become the highest-paid Socceroos coach in history, signing a base salary believed to be worth around $1.4 million plus various bonuses around the Asian Cup and qualifying for the World Cup in Qatar in 2022."

The right option doesn't have to be a big name on massive coin. Pre-world cup, my preference was to go for a coach who's achieved the virtual impossible with a very limited playing group. Someone like Di Biasi getting an absolute minnow like Albania to a Euro Championship (including an away win against Portugal in qualifying), and with a squad that on talent would be about 100 in the world, get a win at the tournament, and be desperately unlucky in their other two matches (including keeping eventual finalists France to 0-0 for 90 minutes) is that kind of achievement. We were in discussions with him in 2017, so I'm assuming he would have been attainable and within our budget in 2018.

I don't think anyone in that Socceroos appointment process could visualise Graham Arnold ever getting those kinds of results in charge of an equivalent to Albania.

 

[giggler99]

http://footballtoday.news/football-media-watch/graham-arnold-a-league-matildas

Quotes an Australian article that's behind a pay wall, below link should hopefully work.

https://outline.com/zLVupv

"Arnold, 54, will become the highest-paid Socceroos coach in history, signing a base salary believed to be worth around $1.4 million plus various bonuses around the Asian Cup and qualifying for the World Cup in Qatar in 2022."

The right option doesn't have to be a big name on massive coin. Pre-world cup, my preference was to go for a coach who's achieved the virtual impossible with a very limited playing group. Someone like Di Biasi getting an absolute minnow like Albania to a Euro Championship (including an away win against Portugal in qualifying), and with a squad that on talent would be about 100 in the world, get a win at the tournament, and be desperately unlucky in their other two matches (including keeping eventual finalists France to 0-0 for 90 minutes) is that kind of achievement. We were in discussions with him in 2017, so I'm assuming he would have been attainable and within our budget in 2018.

I don't think anyone in that Socceroos appointment process could visualise Graham Arnold ever getting those kinds of results in charge of an equivalent to Albania.

OK thanks

Di Biasi would have been a very good appointment. But the major problem is the cattle we have it just isn’t very good. Our system as a whole is broken. Still would be 100x better than Arnold.

Given Arnold the safety of a four year contract is a joke. Clearly they over estimated Arnold’s credentials on the back of a few A-League seasons and forgetting what a fail he was the last time he managed the Socceroos.

 

[craigos]

Arnold is employed because he is one of them, make no mistake. It's the reason Ange was forced to leave because he wasn't one of them.

 

[TommyD13]

If we were to go local, I thought Popovic would have been a good pick. Obviously he could've declined but still. But personally I would rather go overseas and get a good coach, for a prolonged period, whose philosophy can be used throughout the whole national system.