Time to drop Dawes.

[the distributer]

That punch to the back of the head got me going too. Not even 50. A report?
The things about Dawes are he is always where the ball falls, and he is always in front. His opponent never outmarks him. He is great at knocking the ball on to teammates. He tackles and chases. He is a good kick, so when he gets it he gets value. His technique as a foil for Cloke and a spillage feeder to the smalls is excellent. His stats don't reflect a lot of these, but his team value depends on them.
Because he is in front, he is in position for a lot of frees that are not paid. His size and strength seem to blind the umpires on occasion. Think of the frees Judd would get if he were scragged like Dawes is as a matter of routine.
There is no way Collingwood should even contemplate dropping him. A real concern, as opposed to this spurious one, will be who will make way for Thomas and Reid. Someone will have to, but nobody deserves to.

He shouldve stayed down and acted dazed, i honestly don't see why that wasn't reportable, he missed the ball by a mile, negligent/high contact IMO, really no different to J. Clokes in 02.

 

[dubber]

Fact is mate he hasn't taken a contested mark since he returned 3 weeks ago, call me old fasioned but i like to see our KFs take the odd contested mark, that's their main reason for being played, as for structure, the thing about structures is they can be changed.

Playing 2 KPFs is the way to go but as long as their playing well, Dawes isn't playing well, shit, Cloke isn't either but Cloke won't be getting dropped anytime soon, as i said earlier in the thread, if we play him it's in the hope he finds form and that's a dangerous thing in a knockout final, if he showed signs of improvment i would be happy for him to play, but he hasn't.

Dawes does not need to take contested marks or kick multiple goals to be valuable. His value is to provide a target, provide Cloke support, provide crumbing opportunities to small forwards, provide a contest not be confused with taking contested marks & giving D Commeti a chance to say 'Dawesome'.

Lets look at other team vying for the cup at this stage

Geelong have Pods, Hawkins & Menzel/Ottens
Sydney have Ried, Goodes & White/Mumford
WC have Kennedy, Lynch & Darling/Cox

To win finals you need tall timber up the front, just ask Carlton fans how much they would love to have Waite back in the side.

To go away from the structures we have played with & have been successful with this late in the year is just asking for trouble.

 

[the distributer]

Dawes does not need to take contested marks or kick multiple goals to be valuable. His value is to provide a target, provide Cloke support, provide crumbing opportunities to small forwards, provide a contest not be confused with taking contested marks & giving D Commeti a chance to say 'Dawesome'.

Lets look at other team vying for the cup at this stage

Geelong have Pods, Hawkins & Menzel/Ottens
Sydney have Ried, Goodes & White/Mumford
WC have Kennedy, Lynch & Darling/Cox

To win finals you need tall timber up the front, just ask Carlton fans how much they would love to have Waite back in the side.

To go away from the structures we have played with & have been successful with this late in the year is just asking for trouble.

To win finals (or any game for that matter) you need the majority of your team to beat their direct opponants IMO, Dawes has had a lot of ball go through him (especially on saturday) and a good result for us was an out of bounds, he is a KF, he should be beating his man, that's his job, that is any KFs job, if they don't beat their man they are not doing their job IMO.

He isn't a tagger trying to stop his opponant from getting the ball, he is an attacking player who needs to win his own ball, we kick the ball to his advantage and he's let us down. (i know he didn't get great service, but he had many chances to mark and was beaten hands down, dropped a simple chest mark on one occassion, as i said, he hasn't taken a contested mark for 3 weeks, not one), this is my opinion, we need him to do more than simply present or compete, how good do we look when he's in good form compared to him being out of form?

We can even go back to the game where he was injured, he played 76% of that game and played on a pinch hit KB, he had 5 disposals and again, not one contested mark, in fact, his direct opponant in that game outmarked him on several occassions.

 

[dubber]

To win finals (or any game for that matter) you need the majority of your team to beat their direct opponants IMO, Dawes has had a lot of ball go through him (especially on saturday) and a good result for us was an out of bounds, he is a KF, he should be beating his man, that's his job, that is any KFs job, if they don't beat their man they are not doing their job IMO.

He isn't a tagger trying to stop his opponant from getting the ball, he is an attacking player who needs to win his own ball, we kick the ball to his advantage and he's let us down. (i know he didn't get great service, but he had many chances to mark and was beaten hands down, dropped a simple chest mark on one occassion, as i said, he hasn't taken a contested mark for 3 weeks, not one), this is my opinion, we need him to do more than simply present or compete, how good do we look when he's in good form compared to him being out of form?

I would love for all our 22 players beating their direct opponent week in week out BUT that's not reality.

Reality is Dawes had an injury interrupted season.
Reality is that currently we do not have a better replacement for Dawes waiting to take his place. And no MacAffer is not a like for like replacement.
So, we have to acknowledge that despite Dawes not providing optimum output, is a must have for finals success.

 

[JA27]

if he would just mark out in front and not on his chest all the time like he said he was going to in the pre season it would be a lot easier for him.

 

[Greening Magic]

I have read this thread with great amusement.
The Distributor making a rather silly suggestion and then painting himself into a corner by discounting any arguments contrary to his opinion (no matter how much sense they made).

This all could have ended on page 2 if the distributor had of written the following:

"You all make a good point about Dawes importance to our structure but his form really concerns me. I know he doesn't have to dominate a game to be important to us but maybe Brown or Keefe could perform his role as well as he is at the moment. Anyway, I hope the big fella comes good cos he can be a great asset to the team. Go Pies".

Feel free to cut and paste distributor but I get the feeling you might tell me where to get off instead.

 

[kbutcher24]

i thought he was very timid on the weekend; he is a big big man, needs to show more of a physical presence, similar to what cloke does each wk.

he also needs to stop taking the ball in close, and using his 'dukes'. his thumb prob is still bothering him, either that, or his confidence is for the tip.

the one thing he is money on, is his set shots on goal - problem is, he isnt getting the ball enough in scoring positions.

 

[the distributer]

I have read this thread with great amusement.
The Distributor making a rather silly suggestion and then painting himself into a corner by discounting any arguments contrary to his opinion (no matter how much sense they made).

This all could have ended on page 2 if the distributor had of written the following:

"You all make a good point about Dawes importance to our structure but his form really concerns me. I know he doesn't have to dominate a game to be important to us but maybe Brown or Keefe could perform his role as well as he is at the moment. Anyway, I hope the big fella comes good cos he can be a great asset to the team. Go Pies".

Feel free to cut and paste distributor but I get the feeling you might tell me where to get off instead.

Yeah mate, but in my defense, i was abussed from pillar to post and most of those posts have been deleted by the mods, any 'iffy' posts i made were directed at 'iffy' posts directed at me.

And, i don't think it's a 'silly' suggestion at all to drop a marking fwd who hasn't taken a contested mark in his last 4 outings.

 

[Greening Magic]

Yeah mate, but in my defense, i was abussed from pillar to post and most of those posts have been deleted by the mods, any 'iffy' posts i made were directed at 'iffy' posts directed at me.

And, i don't think it's a 'silly' suggestion at all to drop a marking fwd who hasn't taken a contested mark in his last 4 outings.

I think a lot of them have become frustrated with your lack of better alternatives to playing Dawes. To suggest Reid or Tarrant up forward weakens our backline significantly, and to suggest playing a smaller forward completely changes a successful structure that has worked well for a year and a half.

Let's just agree to disagree. Go Dawesy

 

[DermiesLuvChild]

Dawes will play in the pre lim final. Nothing more to be said.

 

[kevind]

I think a lot of them have become frustrated with your lack of better alternatives to playing Dawes. To suggest Reid or Tarrant up forward weakens our backline significantly, and to suggest playing a smaller forward completely changes a successful structure that has worked well for a year and a half.

Let's just agree to disagree. Go Dawesy

Exactamento. It would be great to have a better alternative, but we don't. The suggestion of playing Macaffer as a KF was just ridiculous. If he was forced to play on Darren Glass, I doubt he would get a stat. He was fine as a third stringer, but asking him to be a key forward would be akin to Jason Cloke at CHF in 2003.

The only way that they will drop Dawes is if they feel that an extra pacy midfielder would help us outrun the Cats on GF day and therefore change Leroy and Jolly at FF. It would be a risky strategy and possibly say to the Cats, "We are not sure we can beat you".

 

[the distributer]

I think a lot of them have become frustrated with your lack of better alternatives to playing Dawes. To suggest Reid or Tarrant up forward weakens our backline significantly, and to suggest playing a smaller forward completely changes a successful structure that has worked well for a year and a half.

Let's just agree to disagree. Go Dawesy

The structure held up quite well when Dawes was injured, if our structure requires a slow moving marking target who can't take contested marks we need a new structure IMO, if not, i never should've hung the boots up when i was playing B grade metro.

 

[the distributer]

Exactamento. It would be great to have a better alternative, but we don't. The suggestion of playing Macaffer as a KF was just ridiculous. If he was forced to play on Darren Glass, I doubt he would get a stat. He was fine as a third stringer, but asking him to be a key forward would be akin to Jason Cloke at CHF in 2003.

The only way that they will drop Dawes is if they feel that an extra pacy midfielder would help us outrun the Cats on GF day and therefore change Leroy and Jolly at FF. It would be a risky strategy and possibly say to the Cats, "We are not sure we can beat you".

Macaffa would provide that (if fit) as well as being a dangerous fwd, very strong contested mark Macaffa, it wouldn't be a great match up Glass on Macaffa but i honestly don't think the Eagles would like that match up either, ATM Glass has Dawes measure so it's up to us to do something about it, i would also be in favour of playing Wood ahead of Dawes to strenghen our rucks and rotate Wood and Jolly Fwd, Ottens form should be a worry for us all.

What ever we do in the prelim we have to live with IMO, if Dawes goes out he stays out, if he stays in he stays in.

 

[kevind]

Macaffa would provide that (if fit) as well as being a dangerous fwd, very strong contested mark Macaffa, it wouldn't be a great match up Glass on Macaffa but i honestly don't think the Eagles would like that match up either, ATM Glass has Dawes measure so it's up to us to do something about it, i would also be in favour of playing Wood ahead of Dawes to strenghen our rucks and rotate Wood and Jolly Fwd, Ottens form should be a worry for us all.

Macaffer would not get a touch on Glass.

Fair dinkum the overating of Macaffer on this board is getting out of hand. A thread a few months back suggested he was our most important forward. It is just ludicrous to think he can hold down a KF post in this year's finals given his skills set, size and the fact that he has struggled to even get a game this year. He is best suited as the 3rd forward behind Dawes and Cloke, as few sides carry 3 tall backs, which means he can usually stretch his opponent in the air.

As for Cameron Wood, I just think that ruckmen who lack physical presence are death in the finals.

 

[MarkT2]

Dawes hasn't fired a shot since his return but I can't see anyone claiming his spot let alone anyone able to take some heat off Cloke. Dawes has to play.

 

[Art Corvelay]

Bringing in Macaffer to replace Dawes is just silly. How long as he been out for? You say Dawes is out of form and we can't play players who aren't in form for finals, yet you want to bring in a bloke who hasn't touched a footy in anger for how long?

Wood/Jolly/Brown? That lineup doesn't work - way too slow, not enough defensive pressure when the opposition is coming out of their defense, and not effective enough as actual forwards.

 

[Nardz]

To win finals (or any game for that matter) you need the majority of your team to beat their direct opponants IMO, Dawes has had a lot of ball go through him (especially on saturday) and a good result for us was an out of bounds, he is a KF, he should be beating his man, that's his job, that is any KFs job, if they don't beat their man they are not doing their job IMO.

you're being overly simplistic. your comments may be true if this was the 1970s, but guess what, that was 40 years ago.

A key forward, like any player on the ground, has many jobs. They can not succeed in their primary role and still have a good game if they succeed in others.

Dawes as a KPF needs to

a) kick goals.
b) Provide a target
c) take marks inside forward 50
d) lead up around the ground and take marks down the ground
e) bring other players into the game should he not mark it by causing the spillage.

so he's struggled with a and c lately, and probably even d is questionable.

but he has certainly provided a target.

and he is certainly bringing other players into the game.

your anti-dawes campaign is getting tiresome now. get over it. he is in the team, and he ain't going anywhere. If he was to somehow get injured in the next fortnight, it would be a massive blow to our premiership chances.

 

[the distributer]

you're being overly simplistic. your comments may be true if this was the 1970s, but guess what, that was 40 years ago.

A key forward, like any player on the ground, has many jobs. They can not succeed in their primary role and still have a good game if they succeed in others.

Dawes as a KPF needs to

a) kick goals.
b) Provide a target
c) take marks inside forward 50
d) lead up around the ground and take marks down the ground
e) bring other players into the game should he not mark it by causing the spillage.

so he's struggled with a and c lately, and probably even d is questionable.

but he has certainly provided a target.

and he is certainly bringing other players into the game.

your anti-dawes campaign is getting tiresome now. get over it. he is in the team, and he ain't going anywhere. If he was to somehow get injured in the next fortnight, it would be a massive blow to our premiership chances.

Is it?, why are you responding then? if you don't like thread topic move along, no need for hysterics now.

 

[the distributer]

Watched the game for the 3rd time last night and paid special attention to Dawes, i now agree he shouldn't be dropped (so apologies to all and sundry), but shit, i would like to get more out of the big fella, he was actually pretty good in the last 5 minutes when the game was on the line and he never stopped trying, but as i said, we still need more, step it up big fella!!.

 

[dubber]

Watched the game for the 3rd time last night and paid special attention to Dawes, i now agree he shouldn't be dropped (so apologies to all and sundry), but shit, i would like to get more out of the big fella, he was actually pretty good in the last 5 minutes when the game was on the line and he never stopped trying, but as i said, we still need more, step it up big fella!!.

Good man you are for the above admission. respect

 

[jonbe54]

Watched the game for the 3rd time last night and paid special attention to Dawes, i now agree he shouldn't be dropped (so apologies to all and sundry), but shit, i would like to get more out of the big fella, he was actually pretty good in the last 5 minutes when the game was on the line and he never stopped trying, but as i said, we still need more, step it up big fella!!.

I can understand your frustration dissy, the big bloke could be so much more than what he is at present, seems to be a slow developer but must remember he has had injury probs and for a forward in particular hand injuries can be hard to get over, purely as a confidence thing in taking that mark.

Having said all that he needs to stand up to his size and use it fully, stretch out those long arms and clunk a few at arms length.

 

[Nicco_jj]

I can understand your frustration dissy, the big bloke could be so much more than what he is at present, seems to be a slow developer but must remember he has had injury probs and for a forward in particular hand injuries can be hard to get over, purely as a confidence thing in taking that mark.

Having said all that he needs to stand up to his size and use it fully, stretch out those long arms and clunk a few at arms length.

I do not disagree with this. In fact, i totally agree. However, I do disagree that he will get dropped

 

[muzzy2]

Hey Mods,

Let's settle this once and for all.

Can you please merge this thread with the Rambo one, and then Nathan Brown can play KPF in the Prelim, and then the Granny assuming all goes to plan?

Case closed...


P.s. In case not sure if serious. :sarcasm:

 

[Helfarch]

What a waste of time thread.

 

[jonbe54]

I do not disagree with this. In fact, i totally agree. However, I do disagree that he will get dropped

And I'm totally in accord with you there Nicco, I do believe he needs to step up to his inches and impose himself but he is doing a job that nobody else in the team can do at the moment so dropping him simply isn't an option.