Research When was Carlton formally established

[royals1922]

http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-39637772/view#page/n11/mode/1up (page 11)

1868 according to the programme for the 1908 Australasian Football Jubilee Carnival. There's a photo from 1874 a couple of pages down.

But no one knows the date exactly. Blueseum gives a range of dates.Getting the date is crucial. I wonder also if that spot in Royal Park in the photo can be identified today.

 

[Obi fella]

I've previously posted this pic in the 'Football Record' thread.
What I find interesting is season 1875.
Carlton premiers & 3rd place Carlton Imperials.
As most would know same town rivals are usually the biggest rivalries.
Did these clubs merge? Did Carlton Imperial fold or join a lesser league?

 

[royals1922]

I've previously posted this pic in the 'Football Record' thread.
What I find interesting is season 1875.
Carlton premiers & 3rd place Carlton Imperials.
As most would know same town rivals are usually the biggest rivalries.
Did these clubs merge? Did Carlton Imperial fold or join a lesser league?

View attachment 143812

Ive tried to get some information on C I but in some ways it is a patchwork

 

[the croucher]

I've previously posted this pic in the 'Football Record' thread.
What I find interesting is season 1875.
Carlton premiers & 3rd place Carlton Imperials.
As most would know same town rivals are usually the biggest rivalries.
Did these clubs merge? Did Carlton Imperial fold or join a lesser league?

View attachment 143812

Unfortunately, that page is typical of the misleading information that was published in decades past.
Carlton were not premiers in 1875, indeed nobody was premier of anything pre-1877, because there was no competition to be premier of. And…the VFA did not start awarding official premierships until about the mid-1880s.

The Challenge Cup 1860s-1870s was not a competition at all (i.e. the matches your club played throughout the season did not count in any way towards it). It was a "challenge match" or two during a season and if you beat the Cup-holder on 25 May then you hold it from then on until beaten in a designated "challenge match" which might not occur until the next season.

 

[royals1922]

Unfortunately, that page is typical of the misleading information that was published in decades past.
Carlton were not premiers in 1875, indeed nobody was premier of anything pre-1877, because there was no competition to be premier of. And…the VFA did not start awarding official premierships until about the mid-1880s.

The Challenge Cup 1860s-1870s was not a competition at all (i.e. the matches your club played throughout the season did not count in any way towards it). It was a "challenge match" or two during a season and if you beat the Cup-holder on 25 May then you hold it from then on until beaten in a designated "challenge match" which might not occur until the next season.

People who are interested should read some of the old footy reports. To say there was an organization would be putting things too high.

 

[Obi fella]

Unfortunately, that page is typical of the misleading information that was published in decades past.
Carlton were not premiers in 1875, indeed nobody was premier of anything pre-1877, because there was no competition to be premier of. And…the VFA did not start awarding official premierships until about the mid-1880s.

The Challenge Cup 1860s-1870s was not a competition at all (i.e. the matches your club played throughout the season did not count in any way towards it). It was a "challenge match" or two during a season and if you beat the Cup-holder on 25 May then you hold it from then on until beaten in a designated "challenge match" which might not occur until the next season.

I can see Carlton fans trying to claim them though.
It's showing 4 premierships pre 1877 & 2 VFA premierships.
22 flags has a nice ring to it for the Bluebaggers.

It's the Carlton Imperial club that's grabbed my attention. Can't recall reading anything about them ever.

 

[the croucher]

I can see Carlton fans trying to claim them though.
It's showing 4 premierships pre 1877 & 2 VFA premierships.
22 flags has a nice ring to it for the Bluebaggers.

It's the Carlton Imperial club that's grabbed my attention. Can't recall reading anything about them ever.

Carlton fans can claim them all they like, doesn't mean they are genuine premierships.
The list was as far as I know created by a Melbourne newspaper [Argus or Australasian], probably promoting their own beliefs on which club was the "premier club" each year. Earliest representation of the list I've found so far is 1889 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6281085

Carlton Imperial gets an occ ref here in 1877 matches planned to be played
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5922473

 

[35Daicos]

Carlton fans can claim them all they like, doesn't mean they are genuine premierships.
The list was as far as I know created by a Melbourne newspaper [Argus or Australasian], probably promoting their own beliefs on which club was the "premier club" each year. Earliest representation of the list I've found so far is 1889 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6281085

Carlton Imperial gets an occ ref here in 1877 matches planned to be played
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5922473

It seems the club was dissolved in May 1877, so presumably those games weren't played. It gets a bit of a mention here:-

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/74662/1/46666_MARK'S_ORIGINS_OF_AUSTRALIAN_RULES_FOOTY_-_LOW_RES.pdf (page 18) [35 mb d/l]

Albert Park was in dire straits after losing its best players to the North Melbourne district, and was desperate for some quality footballers. It first sought an amalgamation with South Melbourne, and when that did not succeed it made full use of Carlton Imperial’s dissolution in May to restore its personnel (although Imperial’s best two or three players went to Carlton). Those gained included Jimmy Lewis, Thomas Nash (grandfather of South Melbourne’s Laurie), John Rickards and Frank Waldron.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Unfortunately, that page is typical of the misleading information that was published in decades past.
Carlton were not premiers in 1875, indeed nobody was premier of anything pre-1877, because there was no competition to be premier of. And…the VFA did not start awarding official premierships until about the mid-1880s.

The Challenge Cup 1860s-1870s was not a competition at all (i.e. the matches your club played throughout the season did not count in any way towards it). It was a "challenge match" or two during a season and if you beat the Cup-holder on 25 May then you hold it from then on until beaten in a designated "challenge match" which might not occur until the next season.

There are certainly media references awarding premierships in those days, whether or not the footballing body did so. It was rather arbitrary and Carlton could probably lay claim to being the premier team in other seasons due to their superior record, 1876 for example but Melbourne were 'awarded' the honour by virtue of beating Carlton in the final match. This may well have been the forerunner to a grand final.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It's the Carlton Imperial club that's grabbed my attention. Can't recall reading anything about them ever.

The Imps were basically a second Carlton side that handled the overflow of players from the first side if memory serves me correctly.

 

[35Daicos]

I can see Carlton fans trying to claim them though.
It's showing 4 premierships pre 1877 & 2 VFA premierships.
22 flags has a nice ring to it for the Bluebaggers.

It's the Carlton Imperial club that's grabbed my attention. Can't recall reading anything about them ever.

From The Footballer 1876:- The club was formed in 1869, their "Playground" was University Paddock, rear of University and their colors were: Blue knickerbockers and jersey, canary and blue striped hose and cap.

 

[35Daicos]

5 editions of The Footballer: an annual record of football in Victoria (1875-1879) can be downloaded from the State Library of Victoria. There's some fascinating reading to be had there.

http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/primo_...any&vl(10247183UI0)=title&vl(10247183UI0)=any

 

[35Daicos]

The Imps were basically a second Carlton side that handled the overflow of players from the first side if memory serves me correctly.

Carlton did have a second twenty of it's own at the same time that Carlton Imperial was playing, according to The Footballer (and other sources), yet the excellent Blueseum site in a report on the 1876 season refers to Imperial as being Carlton's junior side:-

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=1876

A spiteful July game against Carlton Imperial was played.
The Imps. were upset at losing their top players to the Blues George Coulthard , A. McMichael and Joe H. Henry; and set out to prove they were still a side to be reckoned with.
Carlton shocked at their junior sides behaviour, resolved....

"That it is undesirable in the interests of the game that the engagements with the Carlton Imperials for the current season be carried out. They are, therefore, hereby cancelled."

From The Footballer 1876 (also suggesting the clubs weren't on friendly terms!):-

Carlton Imperial has suffered somewhat by the defections of several of her men, who have gone over to the northern enemy, but from the large
resources at command will, no doubt, despite this drawback, muster a good fair team.

 

[Obi fella]

5 editions of The Footballer: an annual record of football in Victoria (1875-1879) can be downloaded from the State Library of Victoria. There's some fascinating reading to be had there.

http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?fn=search&ct=search&initialSearch=true&mode=Basic&tab=default_tab&indx=1&dum=true&srt=rank&vid=MAIN&frbg=&vl(freeText0)="the+footballer"&scp.scps=scopeSLV_VOYAGER),scopeSLV_DIGITOOL),scopeSLVPRIMO)&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&vl(10247183UI0)=any&vl(10247183UI0)=title&vl(10247183UI0)=any

That's the oldest stuff I've read or seen that's football related. I'm printing it all now so I can admire it properly. I'm rapt with the links getting posted in these Footy History threads. To some extend it seems back in the day it was a tiered type comp. I always thought the VFA were innovators with their 1st & 2nd divisions competition but it seems like teams were placed into all types of divisions back then (Senior, Junior, Provisional etc).

 

[35Daicos]

That's the oldest stuff I've read or seen that's football related. I'm printing it all now so I can admire it properly. I'm rapt with the links getting posted in these Footy History threads. To some extend it seems back in the day it was a tiered type comp. I always thought the VFA were innovators with their 1st & 2nd divisions competition but it seems like teams were placed into all types of divisions back then (Senior, Junior, Provisional etc).

You can obviously find bits 'n pieces of that sort of information in old newspapers of the time, but having so much in one book/magazine is very handy. The Footballer was published from 1875-1881, sadly the SLV doesn't seem to have the last two editions.

 

[platinumcraptus]

Skruins and Co podcast chat with former Carlton player, Glenn Manton.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/skruinsandco/Episode_49_-_Glenn_Manton.mp3

 

[royals1922]

Just researching another point and came across this article in 1938 which says Carlton were established in 1864.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141818419