Yeah, a bit more time in the international set-up and Krejza could've been quite decent. As it is, he hasn't really improved in domestic cricket and would struggle to get a look in now.
Nathan Lyon
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Yeah, a bit more time in the international set-up and Krejza could've been quite decent. As it is, he hasn't really improved in domestic cricket and would struggle to get a look in now.
Of course he is under instructions to bowl like he is, thats the part people don't seem to want to accept that the job he is doing is the one the coach and skipper seem to want him doing.
Clarke is a fairly assertive skipper and he is also a selector, if lyon was refusing to adapt and bowl how clarke wanted he would have been dumped by now but clarke and mickey have both stated how happy they are with the job lyon does.
So you clearly feel that others in the past should have been given more opportunities ...well isn't that a good thing that this new selection panel has learned from the mistakes you feel the last lot made?
MG MG
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Agree about Krejza, but the reason Lyon has gotten so many tests is he is Australia's best spinner if he tries
There is justification in the arguement that Lyon was disapointing in Adelaide and Brisbane on the last day.
He definately rushed through his overs and made the wrong decisions.
That is an experience issue. He made the wrong decision, has probably realised it and hopefully next time has the confidence to take the game on rather than shifting responsibility on the pacemen to win the game.
He definately rushed through his overs and made the wrong decisions.
That is an experience issue. He made the wrong decision, has probably realised it and hopefully next time has the confidence to take the game on rather than shifting responsibility on the pacemen to win the game.
And realistically when he takes a wicket with his first ball in test cricket and finishes 5/34 to lead us to our only test win in asia in the last 6 years it's going to buy him a few more tests than some of the others got.
if he had been belted in sri lanka and we lost the series i don't the selectors would have stuck by him for long, whatever extra chances he got he earned it by doing the job early in his test career.
if he had been belted in sri lanka and we lost the series i don't the selectors would have stuck by him for long, whatever extra chances he got he earned it by doing the job early in his test career.
You can't rebut his point about giving blokes chances by posting up stats after they've had said chances, if anything that proves the point about what a guy can do if given a decent run. Note that Hauritz is the only other guy in your Test sample with a decent number of games and unsurprisingly he's improved to put up better numbers than all the two Test discards. Try shield stats:
Code:
Player Span Mat Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 5 Ct
NM Lyon SA 2011-2012 10 23 4/81 51.56 3.23 95.7 0 0
NM Hauritz NSW 2006-2012 16 42 5/39 39.73 2.78 85.5 1 16
JJ Krejza TAS 2007-2012 30 62 4/70 49.48 3.42 86.5 0 17
XJ Doherty TAS 2001-2012 49 116 6/149 43.30 3.18 81.5 3 16
MA Beer WA 2010-2012 22 55 7/46 37.01 2.81 78.9 1 13
Carbine Chaos
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It should be the captain's job to set him on the right course, I'd have thought.
O'Keefe: 26 matches, 70 wickets @ 29, SR 67 [no Tests]
He's the one I would take to India along with Lyon, even though this season he is averaging 34.6.
eth-dog
Tier 1 WW Player
If you look at the first part, I actually put their First Class record as well. Lyon has the best FC average, and second best strike rate of the bowlers in First Class cricket, with the vast majority playing at the AO. I'll take him thanks.
Yeah, maybe. Beer get's a bit less turn but a bit more bounce, so I'd prefer him. O'Keefe would be up there as well though
Beer looks a good horses for courses pick in india, on the Indian pitches with inconsistent bounce monty was a nightmare because he got bounce but didn't turn it too much allowing bowled/lbw to be a regular option.
Not sure how beer would go long term on flat aussie pitches but if he played on the same surfaces england got in india i think he would be dangerous.
Not sure how beer would go long term on flat aussie pitches but if he played on the same surfaces england got in india i think he would be dangerous.
threenewpadlocks
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Beau Casson: 1 Test
Cameron White 4 tests, though he doesn't really count
Jason Krejza: 2 tests
Bryce McGain: 1 test
Steve Smith 5 tests, two as specialist spinner.
Xavier Doherty 2 tests
Mick Beer 2 tests.
None these had the opportunity Lyon's getting, with Lyon getting a run because he got lucky on his first innings.
Cameron White 4 tests, though he doesn't really count
Jason Krejza: 2 tests
Bryce McGain: 1 test
Steve Smith 5 tests, two as specialist spinner.
Xavier Doherty 2 tests
Mick Beer 2 tests.
None these had the opportunity Lyon's getting, with Lyon getting a run because he got lucky on his first innings.
eth-dog
Tier 1 WW Player
"Got lucky". Yeah, he got lucky bowling well against Sri Lanka, albeit on a turning wicket. There is no such thing as a lucky 5-fa at that level. Sure, he got 4 tail-enders, but someone has to get them, don't they? Did you see his first ball in test cricket? Beautifully flighted offie which curved into Sangakarra then turned and bounced, taking the edge to Michael Clarke. No, his first innings was a very good display of off-spin mate.
Tests are first class matches. You're trying to use the fact that he got an extended run in the Test team and put up decent numbers to disprove the theory that if any of those guys got an extended run they'd probably have okay numbers as well? Compare apples to apples, these blokes all got picked originally with only those Shield records behind them, and then a couple won the selectors game of darts and got a few matches in a row and ended up with decent Test records.
On the other hand, you pick bowlers to get batsmen out. Proper batsmen out. It becomes a worry when a player can only be relied upon to get bowlers out. What if you can't get to the tail? Like, you know, during the 10-11 Ashes?
Anyway you guys seem to have gone off track, it's really stupid to play the basic stats game with spinners given they get picked for what they bowl and how their bowl, not their stats. The problem currently with Lyon is that he got his fame bowling lovely loopy stuff in the 76-85km/h range in the BigBash, and hasn't been doing that in test matches in Australia. And 88km/h finger spinners looking for spin to do the work ain't doing s**t in test match cricket in Aus against proper batsmen. It doesn't matter how little or big you spin the ball, a finger spinner bowling in Aus has to be throwing it up and bowling in the 75-85km/h area. A finger spinner, typically bowling it into the batsman, is not getting wickets through spin. Forget it. It doesn't matter how little or big they spin it. You need to throw it up. Flight, drift and dip (and bounce too) is doing the work. That's why Hauritz got picked out of the 2nd XI. He could be relied upon to just do that (and not go for a 4 an over hai krejza). And it's why Lyon got picked after 6 bigbash games and a couple of FC games. But he's lost it. And he's no use in Australian conditions (or possibly English conditions) unless he slows the * down.
alternatives? well i guess you can go back to hauritz, but I'd rather just tell Lyon to slow down. It at least gives him a shot. oh and please don't tell Lyon to bowl more like Harbhajan Singh. (as ponting oh so wisely did with hauritz)
That ball that got Gayle was a ripper. Slow, had great flight and dipped.
The way with spinners, if you don't have the bag of tricks in terms of variations like the Muralis and Kumbles and Saqlains, you better be a master of flight/pace like Swann and Vettori, who never turned the ball much but was a master of deceiving batsman in the air, no one ball's the same and the changes in his pace can go between 70-95
Warnie was a master of flight and also have one of the biggest bag of tricks any spinner ever had, which was what made him the greatest
Lyon is never gonna have many other deliveries, so he better start thinking about how he's gonna change it up in the air. Think all the criticism of his bowling's been quite warranted, dunno why people have to be so precious
Warnie was a master of flight and also have one of the biggest bag of tricks any spinner ever had, which was what made him the greatest
Lyon is never gonna have many other deliveries, so he better start thinking about how he's gonna change it up in the air. Think all the criticism of his bowling's been quite warranted, dunno why people have to be so precious
MG MG
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Hauritz is a much better batsman than Lyon.
Team DJ
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None of them are anywhere near as good as Lyon, right now or potentially. Thats probably the reason
eth-dog
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there isn't a big difference. Both are handy, and I could see Lyon getting a test average around 20 with the stick. Lyon is the best #10 in world cricket, except for maybe Steyn
Carbine Chaos
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There's a fair difference, Hauritz is a much better bat.
threenewpadlocks
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Mitch Johnson has an average of around 20, you see Lyon getting that good?
eth-dog
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Johnson should have a batting average over 25 and a bowling average under 25 with his talent
Post from Phone just above is spot on IMO. Lyon does not even come close to being as good as Hauritz with the bat - not that it should be the focal point of the argument. Hauritz was a bit hard done by since they've effectively replaced him with another version of him who is inferior with the bat.
