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was that ever in debate?
News & Events Could you place Ukraine on a map?
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was that ever in debate?
Jewbacca
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Russia does have claims imo. Hopefully something mutually beneficial is worked out. I'm not holding my breath though.
Hatchy1992
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I was not debating that, the OP clearly stated an Australian/US/NATO intervention. I do not support an Australian/NATO/US intervention due to state sovereignty, if Russia wants to breach state soveriegnty of Ukraine, thats their problem.
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lulz. how do you argue against an australian intervention based on state sovereignty? and whose sovereignty are you talking about? there are plenty of reasons not to support intervention in ukraine, i'm just not sure sovereignty, whether australian or russian (and certainly not ukranian) is one of them.
nailed it.
Hatchy1992
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As I stated earlier, Sovereignty prevents outside intervention unless the state is in obvious need of it which is why I do not support intervention on our part. Sure there's political turmoil but I wouldn't intervene unless there was severe military tension - ie; Civil war.
Was referring to Ukraines Sovereignty as has already been established.
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i don't think you know what sovereignty is.
Hatchy1992
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sovereignty requires that a recognised state govern in the best interests of it's people. Other states have the responsibility not to intervene.
iluvparis
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I picked it - but admit to being a European geography sl*t.
I remember hearing that 1 in 6 US school kids actually couldn't find the USA on a map let alone the Ukraine so I'm not surprised at the intial article.
In contrast 99% of Mexican kids could find the US on a map.
I remember hearing that 1 in 6 US school kids actually couldn't find the USA on a map let alone the Ukraine so I'm not surprised at the intial article.
In contrast 99% of Mexican kids could find the US on a map.
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If a democratically-elected government is ousted and replaced with a puppet regime, how does one determine what land remains sovereign and to whom? I would have thought that the Crimean people have more right to claim sovereignty over their territory than the neo-nazis who were installed in Kiev.
For those who haven't followed what has happened in Ukraine over the past few months, it is important to note that this is exactly what has happened: a democratically-elected government was ousted by an armed militia who were backed by the West (read US). The people put in charge of Ukraine following that ouster include neo-nazis.
That might sound crazy, but you need to realise that the US has a history of toppling democratically-elected governments. A long history. Many of the governments on the following list were democratically-elected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
Anyhow, it is terrific to see that this thread is attracting so much interest. It would be super if more people could elucidate their views on potential 'intervention' in Ukraine, how closely they follow the events in that part of the world, etc.
iluvparis
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nailed it.
What game is that?
As for intervention - don't support it. Not for moral reasons but because of the geopolitical dynamics intervention would cause. Definitely Russia's playground - happy to leave it to them.
Imaging if after we'd gone into Timor the Ruskies had parked a whole bunch of troops into West Timor - *!
Europa Universalis IV.
TheHoneyBadger
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Knew where it is, but good with geography.
Don't want anything to do with it.
Don't want anything to do with it.
New where a bouts it was took a punt and sure enough got it right, as for an intervention * no especially any australian involvement.
as far as I'm concerned we should be removing ourselves from world affairs, farm's are in drought bad enough we don't support them, despite being able to piss away billions to other countries. Let alone fund some war in europe, we have no dog in this fight let them do what europeans do best, cut each others throat's with ever greater efficiency.
as far as I'm concerned we should be removing ourselves from world affairs, farm's are in drought bad enough we don't support them, despite being able to piss away billions to other countries. Let alone fund some war in europe, we have no dog in this fight let them do what europeans do best, cut each others throat's with ever greater efficiency.
iluvparis
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Hello USA 1940
except we don't have the population to fund a giant war machine.
iluvparis
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So if the Nazis were overrunning Europe now you'd want us to stay out?
completely different scenario…. But, no! contrary to popular belief the nazis didn't want to take over the world just europe. Additional we can only supply a token force at best.
If the nazi's were to win and count us as enemies? hell no, * Europe! Do you think any european force would even consider helping us in military conflict wether we help or not? sorry european countries are more regional centric then even the US they could give a s**t about anyone or anything that doesn't advance their goals, they are exceedingly racist and untrustworthy.
If it comes down to it, if we are ever in need of help it won't come from a european country. So yeah let the nazi's can do their thing. Besides which europe today reflects pretty much all hitlers goals apart from killing all the jews. EU's established as he wanted, united currency, germany driving the greater european economy, Britain being bought slowly into the fold as well as interest's in the Mediterranean being aligned and the russian bear no longer threatens to invade western europe.
SO what did we really stop?
then you compare intervening in a conflict where although the land "belongs" to the Ukraine most of the citizens are russian and historically the region was russian land that only separated in recent history. Russia isn't threatening to take over europe.
BTW the quote i paraphrased is from around the around 1885 by Hiram Stevens Maxim. He claimed an american told him to
because it never changes, european's are the most blood thirsty people on the planet, they may have been hesitant after near annihilating each other in two world war's but memories fade and sooner or later superiority complexes being what they are they will return to a war footing.
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Dude, certain Nazis are making a comeback in Europe (indeed, in Ukraine) and the US is supporting them!
And if your line of thinking is, 'well, what if there were a genocide taking place, would you not want us to step in then?', my question to you is how much do you know about what is happening in Israel/Palestine right now?
Because we as a nation are supporting that genocide. Delegates 'representing' you and I are voting at the UN to support those committing these atrocities on a regular basis.
We need to do our own research, forget the propaganda shoved down our throats in newspapers and on television, and realise that we are not the good guys. And our main allies, the US, are also not the good guys. And their most important ally, Israel, well... do your own research is all I can say.
Russia is more so the issue in this story - not the US.
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Why do you say that?
And are you going to deny that the US is backing neo-nazis in Kiev?
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And why did they do that? And why do you believe this a bad thing?
And who do you think backed the militia who toppled the democratically-elected Yanukovych government in the first place?
Putin was quite happy to leave Crimea in the possession of the legitimate Ukrainian government. He even offered them cheap gas and $15b in (non-austerity inducing) loans.
Then the US decided to get involved.
For anybody interested in rejecting the propaganda shoved down their throats by the MSM, and instead doing their own research on what is going on over there, the names in the above photos include:
Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda leader)
Victoria Nuland (US assistant Secretary of State)
John McCain (US Senator)
It gives Russia the advantage of enclosing a population that included many ethnic Russians. It helps form a southern extension to the Black Sea. It may not necessarily be a bad thing for some but toppling democratic governments is not usually a good sign.
Brazil, India, China, South Africa and many countries supported Russia's move. The US continue to stir things up to their advantage as they have done for a century or so.
From memory, Nuland invested billions into democratic change in Ukraine.
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To be clear, you mean what the US did in Kiev, right?
