Charter underwrote bought peptides were not for human use

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BlueWorld said:
But Reid was not present for the off site injections and apparently did not know they were happening.
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maybe not for the regular injections at the clinic across from WH but according to NLM he was present on the Gold Coast at a pre season training camp

onemancyclone said:
And while we're at it, Ivan Milat was a real wake up call to all humans.
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he was the first mass murder ever was he?
 
mxett said:
pull your head in. To suggest other clubs havent had a wake up call is ridiculous. The AFL even released data suggesting improvement was required at many clubs, and subsequently tightened the rules
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I'm with mxett on this. To think that other AFL clubs haven't tightened up their processes in the wake of essendons failures would be naive - that's not suggesting other clubs were doing anything wrong but I'm sure they've put in more checks and balances to prevent improper use of supplements. I'd also suggest players are more likely to ask questions than they did before
 
Keyser Soze said:
I'm with mxett on this. To think that other AFL clubs haven't tightened up their processes in the wake of essendons failures would be naive - that's not suggesting other clubs were doing anything wrong but I'm sure they've put in more checks and balances to prevent improper use of supplements. I'd also suggest players are more likely to ask questions than they did before
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Yes. Anyone who thinks their club weren't dabbling in nefarious things might be somewhat deluded. But the fact remains that the ACC identified Essendon such was the level of their activities.
 

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mxett said:
Ahhhh because they were told in writing the substances were compliant. I concede they did not check to the required degree but they did ask and certainly would have expected those giving the answers wouldnt have done so without speaking with some authority.
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They didn't check at all. Told it was ok by a guy (Dank) they had known for five minutes. Guys that had been with Essendon for years. Hard to believe.

Some consideration given if they checked Thymosin with Reid. If not, then no.
 
Hopefully this is a wake up call for all of the AFL.

And if it took Essendon's programs to raise the alarm bells - Poor record keeping, dodgey doctors and substances not approved for human use - then that is just mind blowing.
 
Superfist said:
Probably raised before, but, if the players take a deal it's more difficult for them to sue Essendon for lost earnings (incl. personal sponsorship earnigns etc...). In those circumstances EFC could maintain the line that the players were innocent and shouldn't have taken the deals, and it was effectively their personal choice to deal and wear the stain.

If the players proceed to the tribunal and are found guilty, a claim against EFC is effectively guaranteed to succeed.

So, of the three results:

1) Take a deal, short suspension, claim against EFC for compensation potentially difficult;
2) Go to tribunal and either:
2.1) Get off - great for them; or
2.2) Get found guilty, likely a short suspension, but have a clear claim against EFC;

Number 1 is clearly the worst option.
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Interesting. Can liability / responsibility/ guilt be shared or spread across more than one party? In which case guilty players could still sue the club to share the responsibility?
 
Keyser Soze said:
I'm with mxett on this. To think that other AFL clubs haven't tightened up their processes in the wake of essendons failures would be naive - that's not suggesting other clubs were doing anything wrong but I'm sure they've put in more checks and balances to prevent improper use of supplements. I'd also suggest players are more likely to ask questions than they did before
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That's fair enough. But it's about mxett's motive in reminding us of this. Every opportunity he gets, almost every post, he wants to drag another club in. Maybe standards were lax at other clubs, but at worst they still don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence or same context of what happened at Essendon. It's just pathetic diversion.
 
Ando727 said:
And quite possibly (drug) cheating?
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And the league, for about 10 weeks. Until their weekly... flu... shot started backfiring on their muscle tissue for some reason. You see, after a big game a player's immune system is weak or some shit.
 
Superfist said:
Probably raised before, but, if the players take a deal it's more difficult for them to sue Essendon for lost earnings (incl. personal sponsorship earnigns etc...). In those circumstances EFC could maintain the line that the players were innocent and shouldn't have taken the deals, and it was effectively their personal choice to deal and wear the stain....
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The Deal is a tricky euphemism Robbo has been propagating. The Deal is pleading guilty to a doping violation. The Deal is admitting you are a filthy drug cheat.

Pleading guilty or being found guilty does not matter. No court in Oz will cop "I pleaded guilty but I was innocent." Be interesting if some of the delisted players, plead guilty, then sue for loss of earnings claiming other clubs were wary of picking them up.
 

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One thing that has struck me a bit over the last few days is the potential supply trail that ASADA may have looked at.

We have discussed on this board the 26 vials that Alavi has claimed he didn't know what he compounded and Dank has claimed the 'light made all the thymosin
disappear' but in a supplements program that lasted months there were clearly more than 26 vials involved.

The websites advertising TB-500 seem to be providing it in powder form to be disolved in sterile water / saline and the schedule for use seems to involve
weekly then monthly injections.

TB-500, once prepared for injection is supposed to be discarded after 8 days.

Given that, then there must be a regular supply chain to provide whatever form of Thymosin was actually in use at Essendon. Its not turning up under somebody's pillow following a visit from the Thymosin fairy.

Alavi has talked about one batch (that we know about) so what was used for the other batches?

It seems to me that ASADA would need to have something showing a regular supply chain as part of making a case against the players. I don't think its good enough to be say they used Tb-4 but have no idea where it was coming from.

I also think this that can be used to both attack or defend Essendon, depending on what is known. If ASADA can show regular supplies of TB-500 going to the club then its going to make defending the players against doping charges pretty difficult. If ASADA cannot show the regular supply chain, I think it makes the allegations much harder to support.

Addidionally the SMS messages regarding combining Thymosin with AOD indicate that a chemist somewhere knew about providing Thymosin to Essendon players, so
if that wasn't Alavi, then who was it? If they have the SMS messages they will know the from and to phone numbers so identifying the chemist shouldn't be that difficult.

There has been a fair bit of speculation on this board about how much ASADA knows that we don't and the regular supply chain must be a part of that I would think. If ASADA have records from the Chinese suppliers then they would have a pretty fair idea who in Australia was buying it and what they were buying.

If Charter is the only purchaser and Alavi is the only compounding chemist involved then many of their public statements are a little short of information.

This is just speculation on my part but I'm wondering how much more information ASADA has from Charter / Alavi that has not reached the public domain.
 
imperial_oz said:
One thing that has struck me a bit over the last few days is the potential supply trail that ASADA may have looked at.

We have discussed on this board the 26 vials that Alavi has claimed he didn't know what he compounded and Dank has claimed the 'light made all the thymosin
disappear' but in a supplements program that lasted months there were clearly more than 26 vials involved.

The websites advertising TB-500 seem to be providing it in powder form to be disolved in sterile water / saline and the schedule for use seems to involve
weekly then monthly injections.

TB-500, once prepared for injection is supposed to be discarded after 8 days.

Given that, then there must be a regular supply chain to provide whatever form of Thymosin was actually in use at Essendon. Its not turning up under somebody's pillow following a visit from the Thymosin fairy.

Alavi has talked about one batch (that we know about) so what was used for the other batches?

It seems to me that ASADA would need to have something showing a regular supply chain as part of making a case against the players. I don't think its good enough to be say they used Tb-4 but have no idea where it was coming from.

I also think this that can be used to both attack or defend Essendon, depending on what is known. If ASADA can show regular supplies of TB-500 going to the club then its going to make defending the players against doping charges pretty difficult. If ASADA cannot show the regular supply chain, I think it makes the allegations much harder to support.

Addidionally the SMS messages regarding combining Thymosin with AOD indicate that a chemist somewhere knew about providing Thymosin to Essendon players, so
if that wasn't Alavi, then who was it? If they have the SMS messages they will know the from and to phone numbers so identifying the chemist shouldn't be that difficult.

There has been a fair bit of speculation on this board about how much ASADA knows that we don't and the regular supply chain must be a part of that I would think. If ASADA have records from the Chinese suppliers then they would have a pretty fair idea who in Australia was buying it and what they were buying.

If Charter is the only purchaser and Alavi is the only compounding chemist involved then many of their public statements are a little short of information.

This is just speculation on my part but I'm wondering how much more information ASADA has from Charter / Alavi that has not reached the public domain.
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Good post
 
imperial_oz said:
One thing that has struck me a bit over the last few days is the potential supply trail that ASADA may have looked at.

We have discussed on this board the 26 vials that Alavi has claimed he didn't know what he compounded and Dank has claimed the 'light made all the thymosin
disappear' but in a supplements program that lasted months there were clearly more than 26 vials involved.

The websites advertising TB-500 seem to be providing it in powder form to be disolved in sterile water / saline and the schedule for use seems to involve
weekly then monthly injections.

TB-500, once prepared for injection is supposed to be discarded after 8 days.

Given that, then there must be a regular supply chain to provide whatever form of Thymosin was actually in use at Essendon. Its not turning up under somebody's pillow following a visit from the Thymosin fairy.

Alavi has talked about one batch (that we know about) so what was used for the other batches?

It seems to me that ASADA would need to have something showing a regular supply chain as part of making a case against the players. I don't think its good enough to be say they used Tb-4 but have no idea where it was coming from.

I also think this that can be used to both attack or defend Essendon, depending on what is known. If ASADA can show regular supplies of TB-500 going to the club then its going to make defending the players against doping charges pretty difficult. If ASADA cannot show the regular supply chain, I think it makes the allegations much harder to support.

Addidionally the SMS messages regarding combining Thymosin with AOD indicate that a chemist somewhere knew about providing Thymosin to Essendon players, so
if that wasn't Alavi, then who was it? If they have the SMS messages they will know the from and to phone numbers so identifying the chemist shouldn't be that difficult.

There has been a fair bit of speculation on this board about how much ASADA knows that we don't and the regular supply chain must be a part of that I would think. If ASADA have records from the Chinese suppliers then they would have a pretty fair idea who in Australia was buying it and what they were buying.

If Charter is the only purchaser and Alavi is the only compounding chemist involved then many of their public statements are a little short of information.

This is just speculation on my part but I'm wondering how much more information ASADA has from Charter / Alavi that has not reached the public domain.
Click to expand...
However even if it was just one batch, they still injected a banned substance. One injection or 100 both mean the same thing, they injected a banned substance. ASADA proves that batch was supplied, compounded, deliveres and used they have proven enough for a 2 year ban.
 
neutralguy said:
However even if it was just one batch, they still injected a banned substance. One injection or 100 both mean the same thing, they injected a banned substance. ASADA proves that batch was supplied, compounded, deliveres and used they have proven enough for a 2 year ban.
Click to expand...

True, ASADA only needs to show one use to get the ban but there would have to be some kind of trail for something that was used repeatedly and that applies to 'good' Thymosin or 'bad'
 
imperial_oz said:
One thing that has struck me a bit over the last few days is the potential supply trail that ASADA may have looked at.

We have discussed on this board the 26 vials that Alavi has claimed he didn't know what he compounded and Dank has claimed the 'light made all the thymosin
disappear' but in a supplements program that lasted months there were clearly more than 26 vials involved.

The websites advertising TB-500 seem to be providing it in powder form to be disolved in sterile water / saline and the schedule for use seems to involve
weekly then monthly injections.

TB-500, once prepared for injection is supposed to be discarded after 8 days.

Given that, then there must be a regular supply chain to provide whatever form of Thymosin was actually in use at Essendon. Its not turning up under somebody's pillow following a visit from the Thymosin fairy.

Alavi has talked about one batch (that we know about) so what was used for the other batches?

It seems to me that ASADA would need to have something showing a regular supply chain as part of making a case against the players. I don't think its good enough to be say they used Tb-4 but have no idea where it was coming from.

I also think this that can be used to both attack or defend Essendon, depending on what is known. If ASADA can show regular supplies of TB-500 going to the club then its going to make defending the players against doping charges pretty difficult. If ASADA cannot show the regular supply chain, I think it makes the allegations much harder to support.

Addidionally the SMS messages regarding combining Thymosin with AOD indicate that a chemist somewhere knew about providing Thymosin to Essendon players, so
if that wasn't Alavi, then who was it? If they have the SMS messages they will know the from and to phone numbers so identifying the chemist shouldn't be that difficult.

There has been a fair bit of speculation on this board about how much ASADA knows that we don't and the regular supply chain must be a part of that I would think. If ASADA have records from the Chinese suppliers then they would have a pretty fair idea who in Australia was buying it and what they were buying.

If Charter is the only purchaser and Alavi is the only compounding chemist involved then many of their public statements are a little short of information.

This is just speculation on my part but I'm wondering how much more information ASADA has from Charter / Alavi that has not reached the public domain.
Click to expand...


A couple of important pieces of information


1) TB-500 isn't actually TB4, it is the fragment of TB4 which stimulates the response. The two substances may have very different instabilities and shelf life's. I know that if you look at the storage of TB4 (which is what was supplied) it can be stored at 4oC (e.g. in a fridge) for a couple of days and at -20 (e.g. frozen in a freezer) for an extended period of time

2) The information for the TB-500 is in regards to individual injection vials which will generally be made up and used in the same day. The vials of "Thymosin" which were supplied to Dank were 5 mls each. If we assume that they were at a working concentration (e.g. concentration injected at) and the same volume was injected (e.g. 0.5 ml) then each vial would contain enough for 10 injections. That would be enough for roughly 260 injections. 260 injections / 34 players is roughly 7 injections worth (it is 7.6 but lets round down) so that first shipment would be enough for 2 month (x6 weekly injections then the first 1 month injection). If the Thymosin was supplied at a stock concentration (higher than working which is further diluted prior to use) then that shipment could have lasted longer.

3) The conversation between Dank and the "Pharmacist" suggests that Dank has a constant supply of "Thymosin". I have to believe that the "Pharmacist" is Alavi otherwise the moment that conversation was released he would have been distancing himself from the whole story, claiming that it was all the mystery "Pharmacist" doing as far as supplying Dank was concerned.
 
imperial_oz said:
True, ASADA only needs to show one use to get the ban but there would have to be some kind of trail for something that was used repeatedly and that applies to 'good' Thymosin or 'bad'
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Unless if one of the substances in the "Mexican cocktail" (along with other things like various amino acids etc) was TB4.
 
neutralguy said:
However even if it was just one batch, they still injected a banned substance. One injection or 100 both mean the same thing, they injected a banned substance. ASADA proves that batch was supplied, compounded, deliveres and used they have proven enough for a 2 year ban.
Click to expand...
But it doesnt fit the story. If they suspect TB4 was used in a doping scheme why would they use it a handful of times at most? Surely this makes proving their theory of a doping scheme difficult
 
mxett said:
But it doesnt fit the story. If they suspect TB4 was used in a doping scheme why would they use it a handful of times at most? Surely this makes proving their theory of a doping scheme difficult
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The "one batch" would have been enough for, at least, 2 1/5 months worth of injections (even with the x6 weekly injections at the start of the program).
 
coryne said:
A couple of important pieces of information


1) TB-500 isn't actually TB4, it is the fragment of TB4 which stimulates the response. The two substances may have very different instabilities and shelf life's. I know that if you look at the storage of TB4 (which is what was supplied) it can be stored at 4oC (e.g. in a fridge) for a couple of days and at -20 (e.g. frozen in a freezer) for an extended period of time

2) The information for the TB-500 is in regards to individual injection vials which will generally be made up and used in the same day. The vials of "Thymosin" which were supplied to Dank were 5 mls each. If we assume that they were at a working concentration (e.g. concentration injected at) and the same volume was injected (e.g. 0.5 ml) then each vial would contain enough for 10 injections. That would be enough for roughly 260 injections. 260 injections / 34 players is roughly 7 injections worth (it is 7.6 but lets round down) so that first shipment would be enough for 2 month (x6 weekly injections then the first 1 month injection). If the Thymosin was supplied at a stock concentration (higher than working which is further diluted prior to use) then that shipment could have lasted longer.

3) The conversation between Dank and the "Pharmacist" suggests that Dank has a constant supply of "Thymosin". I have to believe that the "Pharmacist" is Alavi otherwise the moment that conversation was released he would have been distancing himself from the whole story, claiming that it was all the mystery "Pharmacist" doing as far as supplying Dank was concerned.
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1. I knew TB-4 and TB-500 were related but not identical but do you know how long either can be maintained once dissolved into injectable form. ie How long is that extended period of time and under what conditions? Might be worth while seeing if those conditions existed at Essendon or one of the off-site locations that were used.

2. If those vials were not at a working concentration, would it require an "Alavi" to get them there? Not sure I'd want to have a 'non-expert' changing concentrations on things going into my arm.

3. Pretty much agree the 'pharmacist' is likely to be Alavi.

Overall, due the size and nature of the program, I think its a real possibility we are talking about multiple deliveries but you can take my comments with a grain of salt. I don't claim any knowledge in this area and I'm basically picking things up as I go.
 
mxett said:
But it doesnt fit the story. If they suspect TB4 was used in a doping scheme why would they use it a handful of times at most? Surely this makes proving their theory of a doping scheme difficult
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Circular reasoning.
 
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