Charter underwrote bought peptides were not for human use

[FuManchu]

One thing that has struck me a bit over the last few days is the potential supply trail that ASADA may have looked at.

We have discussed on this board the 26 vials that Alavi has claimed he didn't know what he compounded and Dank has claimed the 'light made all the thymosin
disappear' but in a supplements program that lasted months there were clearly more than 26 vials involved.

The websites advertising TB-500 seem to be providing it in powder form to be disolved in sterile water / saline and the schedule for use seems to involve
weekly then monthly injections.

TB-500, once prepared for injection is supposed to be discarded after 8 days.

Given that, then there must be a regular supply chain to provide whatever form of Thymosin was actually in use at Essendon. Its not turning up under somebody's pillow following a visit from the Thymosin fairy.

Alavi has talked about one batch (that we know about) so what was used for the other batches?

It seems to me that ASADA would need to have something showing a regular supply chain as part of making a case against the players. I don't think its good enough to be say they used Tb-4 but have no idea where it was coming from.

I also think this that can be used to both attack or defend Essendon, depending on what is known. If ASADA can show regular supplies of TB-500 going to the club then its going to make defending the players against doping charges pretty difficult. If ASADA cannot show the regular supply chain, I think it makes the allegations much harder to support.

Addidionally the SMS messages regarding combining Thymosin with AOD indicate that a chemist somewhere knew about providing Thymosin to Essendon players, so
if that wasn't Alavi, then who was it? If they have the SMS messages they will know the from and to phone numbers so identifying the chemist shouldn't be that difficult.

There has been a fair bit of speculation on this board about how much ASADA knows that we don't and the regular supply chain must be a part of that I would think. If ASADA have records from the Chinese suppliers then they would have a pretty fair idea who in Australia was buying it and what they were buying.

If Charter is the only purchaser and Alavi is the only compounding chemist involved then many of their public statements are a little short of information.

This is just speculation on my part but I'm wondering how much more information ASADA has from Charter / Alavi that has not reached the public domain.

The speculation on this site that we know everything ASADA knows has been hilarious. Of course they know more and they will have gathered a lot of that evidence post the joint AFL investigation. Now ASADA have been accused of a lot of things, leaking one of them. But since the AFL has stood away from the investigation, there has been very little if nothing in terms of leaking of evidence, which obviously leads one to the conclusion that thr AFL did it for their purposes.

The fact that very little else has come to light since the end of that joint investigation has fuelled the naysayers because they think that what ASADA had as on July last year is all they have now. When I'd say what they have now, what they gathered after freeing up resources from the joint investigation is going to be very telling in their case.

 

[coryne]

1. I knew TB-4 and TB-500 were related but not identical but do you know how long either can be maintained once dissolved into injectable form. ie How long is that extended period of time and under what conditions? Might be worth while seeing if those conditions existed at Essendon or one of the off-site locations that were used.

For TB4 the lyophilized powder could be stored at room temperature for an extended period of time (think months), the liquid for days and frozen for months especially if you add some other carrier proteins (e.g. BSA) which can help prolong the life span.

4oC is simply in a fridge and -20 is a freezer. They are not uncommon storage facilities esp if they are stored off-site.

2. If those vials were not at a working concentration, would it require an "Alavi" to get them there? Not sure I'd want to have a 'non-expert' changing concentrations on things going into my arm.

I would honestly be surprised if it wasn't at a working concentration but adjusting the concentration of the stock solution could be as simple as adding an equal amount of steralized water or saline to the solution prior to injection. I think a nurse would be able to do this (don't quote me on that). Think of it like diluting some cordial (it starts off concentrated, you mix it with water to adjust the concentration to one that you can drink)

3. Pretty much agree the 'pharmacist' is likely to be Alavi.

Overall, due the size and nature of the program, I think its a real possibility we are talking about multiple deliveries but you can take my comments with a grain of salt. I don't claim any knowledge in this area and I'm basically picking things up as I go.

I would be shocked if an ongoing supply wasn't available, especially after the text msg between Dank and the "Pharmacist" were released. To compound the two peptides together (AOD and "Thymosin") you would either need to start off at a powder or stock solution. Mixing the two together, when they are both at a working solution, would dilute both compounds (e.g if you mix 1 ml of AOD with 1 ml of "Thymosin" you would still need to inject x2 ml of the final product. If you only injected 1 ml of the mixture you would only get half of the AOD and Thymosin that would be required for a dose)

 

[mxett]

The "one batch" would have been enough for, at least, 2 1/5 months worth of injections (even with the x6 weekly injections at the start of the program).

How would you know? 26 vials at 1 vial per subject isnt even going to provide enough for 1 injection each. 50ml vials may give 10 doses per vial but again, for 34 players to have 10 injections that still isnt enough

 

[mxett]

The speculation on this site that we know everything ASADA knows has been hilarious. Of course they know more and they will have gathered a lot of that evidence post the joint AFL investigation. Now ASADA have been accused of a lot of things, leaking one of them. But since the AFL has stood away from the investigation, there has been very little if nothing in terms of leaking of evidence, which obviously leads one to the conclusion that thr AFL did it for their purposes.

The fact that very little else has come to light since the end of that joint investigation has fuelled the naysayers because they think that what ASADA had as on July last year is all they have now. When I'd say what they have now, what they gathered after freeing up resources from the joint investigation is going to be very telling in their case.

Whatever theyve gathered over the last 15 months since the interim report hasnt been enough to scare any of the players into taking any sort of deal

 

[Tango67]

i dont think we need to connect the dots

1. Bombers had injections - fact
2. Bombers dont know or cant provide evidence of what they injected - fact
3. Bombers through sources purchased or had access to TB4 - fact
4. Bombers players had unusually fast increases in body mass - fact
5. Bombers officials discussed a black ops, cutting edge supplements program - fact
6. Bombers captain admitted injecting a baned substance AOD - fact

I think unless the bombers have some very damming supportive evidence then they are in a lot of trouble

 

[Mattrox]

Whatever theyve gathered over the last 15 months since the interim report hasnt been enough to scare any of the players into taking any sort of deal

There is no "deal".

 

[FuManchu]

Whatever theyve gathered over the last 15 months since the interim report hasnt been enough to scare any of the players into taking any sort of deal

Have they seen the evidence in its entirity or just what's in the SCNs which can still be a précis of the evidence? And is there an offer on the table at this juncture?

 

[FuManchu]

Given that ASADA are operating with a few other government agencies, e.g. AFP, Customs etc. Anything that is common to their other investigations or would disclose information best to be hidden for now (operatives, info to be used in pending court cases, whatever), we can presume ASADA has access to the bulk of the information. What can be disclosed publicly is another thing, maybe some of the evidence provided by ASADA is done at the tribunal with only the lawyers and the panel?

I can't see us finding out much in public, of any of the AFP side of the investigations, unless/until they prosecute various dealers etc.

Given Dank was under investigation by the ACC I'd say his phone calls would be monitored and they would be interesting.

 

[Graffy4242]

Whatever theyve gathered over the last 15 months since the interim report hasnt been enough to scare any of the players into taking any sort of deal

More fool them then.

Of course, ASADA has such a lousy win ratio for successful prosecutions Mexxy.

 

[mxett]

There is no "deal".

That's obvious, the players wouldnt take any

 

[mxett]

Have they seen the evidence in its entirity or just what's in the SCNs which can still be a précis of the evidence? And is there an offer on the table at this juncture?

No player has approached ASADA to discuss any offer which to me says they arent that concerned about the evidence theyve seen. Maybe ASADA havent included any smoking gun in the evidence accompanying the SCN's. Not sure why they would withhold evidence if they want players to deal though

 

[FuManchu]

No player has approached ASADA to discuss any offer which to me says they arent that concerned about the evidence theyve seen. Maybe ASADA havent included any smoking gun in the evidence accompanying the SCN's. Not sure why they would withhold evidence if they want players to deal though

Im not sure neither, I just recall reading that the SCNs don't necessarily have to contain the fine detail of the evidence, just a summary.

Maybe the players know the chain of supply evidence is too strong to refute and will base their case on being duped.

They might also think the AFL tribunal might be more sympathetic to a duping case than any negotiations with ASADA would be.

All speculation

 

[Argy]

No player has approached ASADA to discuss any offer which to me says they arent that concerned about the evidence theyve seen. Maybe ASADA havent included any smoking gun in the evidence accompanying the SCN's. Not sure why they would withhold evidence if they want players to deal though

You don't know that. For all you know a few of they might have. Time will tell.

 

[coryne]

How would you know? 26 vials at 1 vial per subject isnt even going to provide enough for 1 injection each. 50ml vials may give 10 doses per vial but again, for 34 players to have 10 injections that still isnt enough

Because the "injection protocol" given to Dank was for 0.5 ml per injection. This is based on a protocol where single dose vials are produced. If the "Thymosin" was supplied at the same concentration then each "vial" would contain enough for x10 injections. They wouldn't be injecting 5 ml per injection ........

 

[mxett]

Because the "injection protocol" given to Dank was for 0.5 ml per injection. This is based on a protocol where single dose vials are produced. If the "Thymosin" was supplied at the same concentration then each "vial" would contain enough for x10 injections. They wouldn't be injecting 5 ml per injection ........

0.5ml? That would be a very small dosage, and it's based on your assumptions

 

[mxett]

You don't know that. For all you know a few of they might have. Time will tell.

True, seems unlikely though from what we've heard

Because the "injection protocol" given to Dank was for 0.5 ml per injection. This is based on a protocol where single dose vials are produced. If the "Thymosin" was supplied at the same concentration then each "vial" would contain enough for x10 injections. They wouldn't be injecting 5 ml per injection ........

Also, as we've heard, once prepared TB4 only lasts for 8 days or so. How did Dank make a single order and supply of 26 vials last many months?

 

[FuManchu]

True, seems unlikely though from what we've heard

Also, as we've heard, once prepared TB4 only lasts for 8 days or so. How did Dank make a single order and supply of 26 vials last many months?

Did he buy it in powder form and have it made up as required by Alavi? Who knows?

I suppose ASADA only need prove it was used once. Any subsequent use only lends to player complicity.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Didn't I read somewhere that a current/ex player was stunned by the court case result because they had been convinced that Essendon would win the court case and the investigation would be thrown out, maybe these players are being told not to talk to ASADA about any deals in the hope that the tribunal goes the sympathetic route, only my opinion but I gotta feeling these players are going to regret listening to everything they've been fed and not forming their own opinions but then again they did play follow the leader into the drug lab without checking for themselves, seems these players take the words of others as fact.

 

[Belnakor]

No player has approached ASADA to discuss any offer which to me says they arent that concerned about the evidence theyve seen. Maybe ASADA havent included any smoking gun in the evidence accompanying the SCN's. Not sure why they would withhold evidence if they want players to deal though

the players don't know what they were injected with, they pretty much know as much as us. So if they went to ASADA what would they say exactly?

 

[Satan]

True, seems unlikely though from what we've heard

Also, as we've heard, once prepared TB4 only lasts for 8 days or so. How did Dank make a single order and supply of 26 vials last many months?

Fish loaves? I am sure there is A JC character somewhere in this saga

 

[Belnakor]

only my opinion but I gotta feeling these players are going to regret listening to everything they've been fed and not forming their own opinions but then again they did play follow the leader into the drug lab without checking for themselves, seems these players take the words of others as fact.

dumb footballers explain alot... but even then, these are elite athletes who by their very nature are selfish individuals... The fact they managed to keep all the players together under the same legal advice/council for as long as they did was a minor miracle.

 

[coryne]

0.5ml? That would be a very small dosage, and it's based on your assumptions

Do you know the difference between a "dose" and a "concentration". The way that these sites are selling TB-500 is in single "dose" vials. You then dissolve the powder in saline and inject the whole dose. If you dissolve the powder in 0.5 ml or 5 ml it doesn't effect the size of the "dose", just the concentration it is administered at.

 

[coryne]

True, seems unlikely though from what we've heard

Also, as we've heard, once prepared TB4 only lasts for 8 days or so. How did Dank make a single order and supply of 26 vials last many months?

Go look up the storage information for tb4 (not tb-500 which is a fragment of tb4) it can be stored at -20 (e.g. frozen) for an extended period of time.

 

[mxett]

Did he buy it in powder form and have it made up as required by Alavi? Who knows?

I suppose ASADA only need prove it was used once. Any subsequent use only lends to player complicity.

why send powder to a compounding pharmacist for him to pass it on in powder form? Alvi also claimed he compounded the product, he never said he passed it on in raw form

 

[FuManchu]

why send powder to a compounding pharmacist for him to pass it on in powder form? Alvi also claimed he compounded the product, he never said he passed it on in raw form

I guess ASADA knows what they need to know.