Bluemour Discussion Thread III

[agro]

We basically started building a list from scratch commencing in 2015 (Plus Cripps and Docherty).

Everyone added to the list before 2015 (again barring Cripps and Docherty) is surplus to our needs going forwards. They are either placeholders, or simply marking time to stop our kids from getting smashed.

Our drafting history from 2008 to 2014 is grim reading at best. Seven years in a row and we have b*gger all to show for it, other than Patrick Cripps, and four players who can largely be described as depth at best and will likely mostly be delisted within the next one to two years

Our trading history over the same period is nearly as bad.

This optimistic bullsh*t I see from time to time really irks me. Being realistic with where we're at and getting on board with the 'Green shoots' program is the only way to bring this club back to greatness.

I can't begrudge a supporter from being positive. But if we don't learn from our history, we will be doomed to repeat it.

I'd add that our drafting and trading history prior to 2008 wasn't much to write home about either.

 

[SpiritOfCarlton]

I'd add that our drafting and trading history prior to 2008 wasn't much to write home about either.

It is all great to bag the drafting pre 2008.

The only draft suggestion post 2008 I have seen from those brave enough to post it is Murdoch above Rowe.

Think Rowe has won than one very very easily (in a very low grade bout).

Have not seen one major star that we should have got over the last ten years.

If you can point out a star that we missed that would be great.

 

[thylacine60]

First thing I thought of was Lucas instead of Talia 2009. 2010? You serious? Watson instead of Isaac Smith? How far do you wanna go with your ridiculous suggestion?

 

[Red Bull]

Mate have you read through Facebook comments and the like? There's not too many reasoned and balanced supporters out there. Either we haven't done enough drafting, Bolton needs to get wins or go, we should trade Kreuzer, shouldn't have got rid of Malthouse, have changed too many players or we should tank. Or combinations of those.

Can happily report to be a Facebook/Twitter/Instagram etc virgin .
Probably silly enough already without that crap ...

 

[Malifice]

It is all great to bag the drafting pre 2008.

The only draft suggestion post 2008 I have seen from those brave enough to post it is Murdoch above Rowe.

Think Rowe has won than one very very easily (in a very low grade bout).

Have not seen one major star that we should have got over the last ten years.

If you can point out a star that we missed that would be great.

Pick a year, any year. From 2008 onwards.

Ill give you 2013 with Patrick Cripps.

 

[Kramer1]

First thing I thought of was Lucas instead of Talia 2009. 2010? You serious? Watson instead of Isaac Smith? How far do you wanna go with your ridiculous suggestion?

You're gonna stop at Watson????

 

[SpiritOfCarlton]

Pick a year, any year. From 2008 onwards.

Ill give you 2013 with Patrick Cripps.

Go ahead then. What were your picks.

 

[thylacine60]

wait for it

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

You're about two years too early.

We have totally screwed up the drafts from 2008 to 2014. This leaves us with Cripps, Docherty and the 2015 and 2016 draft and trade class. Mckay, Curnow, Silvagni, Cunningham, Wietering, SPS, Fisher, Marchbank, Pickett, Plowman.

We won't be back in the eight till around 2020 to 2021. By then Simpson, Kruezer, Gibbs and Murphy will be gone or will have 1 foot out the door.

You don't push for the top four when more than half of your best 22 are aged 22 years and younger. You're under estimating the size of the mountain we need to climb.

I don't think its unreasonable to suggest a concerted push for top 8 can happen in 2019, provided we continue to do what we have been doing, building through the draft, trading well and making good use of available free agents if they are the right players for the list. 2020 may be more realistic, but Id be disappointed if we weren't at least in a position to be challenging for the 8 at least.

 

[thylacine60]

I love how we presume every other team will degrade at the same rate we improve. The next step post Re-set will be Project Log-jamb.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Appreciate what you're passing along, but there aren't many names that individually command the kind of cap space that we've banked for 2018 (at least as I understand the rules, we've got the new 2018 cap +5% of 2016 + 5% of 2017), so what you're saying all but confirms that we're going back in with GWS, subject to our final draft order prior to the trade period.

Here's the list of names for 2017 that would be of interest, but most of them are unlikely to jump ship:

- Josh Kennedy
- The other Josh Kennedy
- Eric MacKenzie
- Jackson Trengove
- Sandilands
- Rockliff
- Dustin Martin

Now the Kennedy 'twins' would be fantastic, but they'd be 3 year deals at the minimum, and both are playing at top 4 contenders. Then there's two good midfielders who are even bigger (and more dangerous) FIGJAMs than Fyfe.

There's no one else under 30 that you could make an argument for as the 600-900k player we should be spending cap space on for 2018.

Speaking of, here's the following year's free agency list highlights:

Adelaide: Taylor Walker, Sloane, Brodie Smith
Collingwood: Ben Reid
Geelong: Harry Taylor
GC: Ablett, Tom Lynch
Hawthorn: Roughhead
Melbourne: Gawn, Tom McDonald
North: Atley
Port: Gray, Boak
WCE: Gaff, Shuey
WBD: Wood, Dalhaus, Wallis, Liberatore

Good ******* luck shaking most of those trees.

I think Rockliff might be worth a look TBH. A change of scenery for him could be a good thing just like it appears to be with Pearce Hanley if the preseason is anything to go by. Would have just turned 28 by the time next season kicks off. Don't think there is any doubt he is a quality, experienced midfielder. Could possibly get a good 4 - 6 seasons out of him. maybe a replacement for Gibbs?

 

[thylacine60]

do we still run a no dickheads policy at carlton?

 

[SpiritOfCarlton]

OK.

Then this is the same as every other Carlton forum.

There are posters who will bag the recruiting.

But they will not put up their alternative picks for each Carlton pick each year, even for just one year!

Show us what you picked against the rest of the AFL, over 3, 4, 5 or whatever picks it was each year?

Would love to see it. If you can provide proof you are a superstar and will have yourself a job somewhere.

 

[Bluey24]

I'm hoping the rumours of Fyfe are wide of the mark, and with the usual good mail from Barass70, I'm still reasonably confident that we won't land him.

Judd never worked. I don't care what anyone says. We ruined our chance to develop some balance to our list, we had a coach who didn't develop a sustainable game plan because he wanted everyone to get it to Judd, we had players who didn't develop as a result, and we ended up with a leader for whom the job didn't come naturally.

I don't blame Judd for that, but my worry with Fyfe is that the same temptations might arise:

- the list remains a work in progress. Getting Fyfe might mean lower concentration on drafting on ballers, when he would only be one leg break away from ruining his career
- the coach is young, he's likely to be under the pump given what is probably going to be a lean 2017. I hope he's smarter than Ratten, and will work on a sustainable game plan regardless. But if he's got one eye on his job, then the temptation to load it all up on Fyfe will be high
- player development. I'm a little more confident than in 2007, but we are coming from a long way back. Yes, the players might walk taller with Fyfe in the team, but they might also think he will do it all for them
- Fyfe is only leader at Freo this year. If he was a natural, it's likely to have come earlier in his career.

Overall, we are probably on more solid foundations than when Judd came, but not enough to be worth the investment in Fyfe imho. The trick should be to continue to look at blokes in the 19-22 year old age group who are looking to develop alongside our list.

Judd was the best thing to happen to Carlton in the last 15 years.

Judd taught Murph how to be a leader, Judd removed in large part the club's toxic culture, Judd lifted standards on and off the field. Not to mention Judd was a pretty handy footballer.

Judd.

 

[Malifice]

Go ahead then. What were your picks.

I can't be bothered doing the work.

Find me another club in the AFL that had a worse draft record than us in the seven years 2008 to 2014. Or just name a club and I'll happily go back and compare the seven years and we can look at players selected during those drafts that are still on the respective lists.

Even Hawthorn who have repeatedly finished in the top four over this period, been through compromised drafts, and repeatedly traded out top draft picks for players in this period (Ben McAvoy, Shaun Burgoyne, Josh Gibson) have managed to draft better than us, and have more draftees from this period on their list then us.

Seriously, name me a club.

 

[Mr_Plow]

OK.

Then this is the same as every other Carlton forum.

There are posters who will bag the recruiting.

But they will not put up their alternative picks for each Carlton pick each year, even for just one year!

Show us what you picked against the rest of the AFL, over 3, 4, 5 or whatever picks it was each year?

Would love to see it. If you can provide proof you are a superstar and will have yourself a job somewhere.

I picked Touk Miller at #36 in the official BigFooty Carlton 2014 phantom draft.

Absolute steal.

 

[Bluey24]

Spot on

Cheers, Barass.

Don't suppose we could have a shopping list?

 

[SpiritOfCarlton]

I can't be bothered doing the work.

Find me another club in the AFL that had a worse draft record than us in the seven years 2008 to 2014. Or just name a club and I'll happily go back and compare the seven years and we can look at players selected during those drafts that are still on the respective lists.

Even Hawthorn who have repeatedly finished in the top four over this period, been through compromised drafts, and repeatedly traded out top draft picks for players in this period (Ben McAvoy, Shaun Burgoyne, Josh Gibson) have managed to draft better than us, and have more draftees from this period on their list then us.

Seriously, name me a club.

What were your picks?

 

[ShanDog]

Geez, everyone is getting a bit edgy. Must be close to round 1.

 

[thylacine60]

shutup then......

 

[ShanDog]

shutup bear......

ITS A DOG AND UNLIKE YOU ITS STILL ALIVE JERK

 

[thylacine60]

bit edgy........

 

[Malifice]

What were your picks?

I'm not the metric by which drafting standards are measured.

We measure them by comparing them to other clubs, in context. We are by far and away the worst performing of all 18 clubs in the AFL from the period 2008 to 2014.

Out of over 40 players selected over a seven year period, we have a grand total of five still on the list. And four of those five players (Graham, Buckley, Rowe, Boekhoerst) are depth at best, with two of them likely to be moved on at the end of this year.

Cripps is the notable outlier. In fact Cripps is the only first round draft pick from all seven of those years that remains on our list. The others are all gone. Including Bootsma, Watson, Menzel and Lucas.

 

[SpiritOfCarlton]

I can't be bothered doing the work.

There is the problem.

If you do not care enough to make the selections at the time then why complain years later when they do not work out?

 

[ShanDog]

bit edgy........