Play Nice Who finishes highest out of Melbourne, Carlton and Gold Coast in 2020?

[Virgin Dog]

Suns are a atill a season away from actually stating to see some real tangible improvement, but would hope they would suffer a Lot lesser beltings next season, but an injury free Rankine, Lukosius, with the additions of Rowell and Anderson should see some really exciting glimlses of their future

Pity they couldn't get Shaun Burgoyne over the line, no doubt he would have has a Hodge at he Lions type of leadership and impact there.

Yeah Suns have probably the most exciting set of youth, based on potential alone, in the competition right now. Agree that Burgoyne would've been fantastic, and it's a pity that Birchall ended up with the other QLD side. They are still a year or two away from posing any serious threat, but you can definitely see the potential.

I know the Dogs played like absolute shit that day, but it's still definitely worth watching the Suns-Dogs game from early 2019. I was particularly impressed by their defence that day. Our entries were pretty crap, but it felt like nothing was getting past Collins and Harbrow. Also worth watching as a Carlton fan, as I felt that was one of Jack Martin's career-best games, and a real showing of what he's capable of. He was a bit wasteful, kicking 4 behinds, but was otherwise absolutely dominant up forward

 

[jezzajay]

Surely Melbourne bounce back...just a matter of how high do they bounce! Last year was odd for them.
Blues steadily rising.
Can't see the suns rising for at least another year or so.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I know these guys are being compared due to finishing in the bottom 3 spots, but I feel like a harder comparison to make would be if we included St Kilda or even Sydney instead of Gold Coast. Then we'd be comparing teams that arguably have scope to make top 8 if things went right, all have a relatively young list profile, but could all potentially face a bottom 4 finish if difficulties arise.

With Gold Coast, I just see no realistic scenario that they don't finish right near the bottom.

I would love to have put a bunch of other clubs in this question instead of Gold Coast, but they had to go with someone, and they would have been even more out of place with other teams.

 

[Proper Gander]

Backing Melbourne in to play finals this year and i have no doubt i will regret it.

That list is too good not to be at the very least competing for a finals spot. I think a lot of it will come down to how they start the year, they have been proven to be mentally fragile at this stage and a poor start could snowball. If they start strongly though no reason why they can't match it with most teams, i liked what they did in the of season.

I’m tentatively backing Melbourne to play finals this year and I have no doubt I will regret it.

 

[kreglze]

Won't be us, but I am not comparing us to anyone, we are playing against our 2019 team, need to see improvement in loss margins and pick up a couple more wins on the board. If we get a decent run with injury (feel like I say that every year) no reason we can't win 5/6 games.

 

[JT_the_Man]

Melbourne have the highest upside imo, extremely hard to predict where they will end up. Carlton might be the safe bet because I’m confident they will improve, but I’ll go with Melbourne.

 

[tiger_tough]

Suspect a lot will centre around injuries, Carlton (imo) have more A grade and or potential A Grade talent on our list than The Dees, but Melbourne's list has significantly more depth/bats deeper.

Who are Carltons A graders? Cripps obviously. Docherty with a massive question mark now. Simpson is 50 years old. Weitering? Not yet.

Dees have better top end talent but really poor depth.

 

[La Dispute]

Langdon is a reasonable player and fits a nice as a link up mid, but has Tomlinson ever played a full season as an outside midfielder?

I’m not as bullish on Melbourne as I was 6 months ago. At best they will scrape into the finals, but there still gaps they need filling and their game plan needs a big facelift.

I rated their draft though, which very few neutrals did. I like the benefit of having Jackson develop as a key forward as they slowly build his minutes in the ruck until he is ready to take over from Gawn.

The Pickett selection reminds me of Richmond taking Dan Rioli in 2015: maybe a slight reach, but exactly the kind of player they need and someone who can contribute straight away.

 

[branedotorg]

Won't be us, but I am not comparing us to anyone, we are playing against our 2019 team, need to see improvement in loss margins and pick up a couple more wins on the board. If we get a decent run with injury (feel like I say that every year) no reason we can't win 5/6 games.

Not sure it'll be your 2021 team either but if the group stays together and improves as expected things should be very fun after that. Looking forward to seeing two strong clubs in Queensland soon.

 

[Red_man2008]

Who are Carltons A graders? Cripps obviously. Docherty with a massive question mark now. Simpson is 50 years old. Weitering? Not yet.

Dees have better top end talent but really poor depth.

Walsh (2019), Murphy (2018), Kreuzer (2017) all A grade at their best. Expect to see all 3 playing better footy in 2020 with a full fit list (only Curnow not in training atm - mckay has started running and kicking this month). Jones is ready to tear the competition a new one. In the last 2 years we have not had a fully fit backline but him and Weitering have constantly done a job. Both will be in AA contention most of 2020. SPS (see v western bulldogs 2019), Betts (still ranked top 3 small forward in the game in 2019), Curnow (Owns the 2019 record for most centre clearances - 12 and Equal second most clearances in a game in 2019 - 15 second to only Cripps - 19).
Someone will come out of nowhere as well. Players like Mcgovern (fittest he’s ever been lost all the puppy fat reminiscent of his brother turning the corner some years back), Setterfield (knee injury is two preseasons ago now. Right age to be improving up the ranks), Dow (spent the whole preseason with diesel and kicking/endurance has improved out of sight) and O’Brien (best kick at the club apparently - running top 2/3 in the club constantly next to the freak Curnow who would win most afl clubs running by a lot)

 

[B4Bear]

Melbourne for the spoon. Death riding them all the way to the finish.

 

[dylan93]

Langdon is a reasonable player and fits a nice as a link up mid, but has Tomlinson ever played a full season as an outside midfielder?

I’m not as bullish on Melbourne as I was 6 months ago. At best they will scrape into the finals, but there still gaps they need filling and their game plan needs a big facelift.

I rated their draft though, which very few neutrals did. I like the benefit of having Jackson develop as a key forward as they slowly build his minutes in the ruck until he is ready to take over from Gawn.

The Pickett selection reminds me of Richmond taking Dan Rioli in 2015: maybe a slight reach, but exactly the kind of player they need and someone who can contribute straight away.

I'll happily have him down back with May as a traditional CHB to let Lever do his thing it that rebounding role. Especially with Frost gone, and not particularly wanting O-Mac near the best 22. vandenBerg might take that other wing, him or Salem perhaps.

 

[Niggles]

No one is an A grader in 2020. There’s been 0 games played. I stated they’ve been A graders. And can do so again.

in my opinion A graders aren’t AA but maybe in contention. Elite are the AAs the A graders are a step below. Of course according to champion data elite is in the top 5% of the comp per position.A graders are the nextbest.

Cripps will be the only A grader this year. Regardless, I reckon you guys will be far better off than the Dees next year. 1 hit wonders.

 

[Red_man2008]

Cripps will be the only A grader this year. Regardless, I reckon you guys will be far better off than the Dees next year. 1 hit wonders.

Cripps will be elite this year. Weitering Jones Walsh mckay Docherty will be A graders.

 

[faible]

No one is an A grader in 2020. There’s been 0 games played. I stated they’ve been A graders. And can do so again.

in my opinion A graders aren’t AA but maybe in contention. Elite are the AAs the A graders are a step below. Of course according to champion data elite is in the top 5% of the comp per position.A graders are the nextbest.

Cripps will be elite this year. Weitering Jones Walsh mckay Docherty will be A graders.

You can argue the minutiae of A grade versus Elite based on you trying to cross two different rating scales if you like, but it's not helping form a coherent argument. Either stick to A-F type ratings or use the Champion Data Average - Above Average - Elite but be consistent with your terminology.

A-Grade = Elite
B-Grade = Above Average
C-Grade = Average

Docherty hasn't played a game in 2 years, Walsh is in his second season, Weitering, McKay & Jones have never been 'A' graders.

Where a C rates an 'average' AFL player only Cripps is a proven A grade player that is highly likely to continue being so in 2020.

If your assessment of the list is that 1/4 of your best 22 is going to be an A grade AFL player in 2020, then I think you'll be wrong. Richmond has 5 players that Champion Data would rate as A-Grade / Elite for comparison.

I think McKay, Weitering, Walsh & Curnow all look likely to be able to make that level at some point in their career, but in doing so Carlton will be a Top-4 side.

 

[Red_man2008]

You can argue the minutiae of A grade versus Elite based on you trying to cross two different rating scales if you like, but it's not helping form a coherent argument. Either stick to A-F type ratings or use the Champion Data Average - Above Average - Elite but be consistent with your terminology.

A-Grade = Elite
B-Grade = Above Average
C-Grade = Average

Docherty hasn't played a game in 2 years, Walsh is in his second season, Weitering, McKay & Jones have never been 'A' graders.

Where a C rates an 'average' AFL player only Cripps is a proven A grade player that is highly likely to continue being so in 2020.

If your assessment of the list is that 1/4 of your best 22 is going to be an A grade AFL player in 2020, then I think you'll be wrong. Richmond has 5 players that Champion Data would rate as A-Grade / Elite for comparison.

I think McKay, Weitering, Walsh & Curnow all look likely to be able to make that level at some point in their career, but in doing so Carlton will be a Top-4 side.

Fair enough on the terminology. In that case when you’re using previous seasons results to determine elite status (A grade) for 2020 there is nothing that suggests someone like Docherty to return to exactly where he was in 2017 (champion data ranks daw and ward as elite which this should place him there too) and for players like Weitering and or jones to make that improvement. Both during periods of previous years were in the conversation. Jones was classified as elite according to champion data in his first season as a defender (2018) it’s only successive games that’s causing him not to be so now. Weitering will replace Rance in 2020 as the number 1 key defender in the game. His final month of 2019 was A grade. Kept hawkins to zero goals in round 23 despite losing the game by over 10 goals. Murphy was classified as A grade in 2017 as well as 2011 winning the AFLCA which preceded the Brownlow traditionally. Two broken shoulders held him back for the next few seasons. Im
Not saying he is guaranteed to return to A grade status but it’s been shown that a full preseason for him moves him up a class. The debate was that Carlton don’t have any A graders but Cripps. I’m arguing that Murphy is/was one.

Final 10 games of season (average)

27 disposals
1 goal
5 inside 50s

if that’s not A grade I don’t know what is.

 

[La Dispute]

It’s all semantics really. I’d categorise ‘elite’ being one of the best few in their position. You can be an A-grader but not be an elite mid: see Shuey, Shiel, Parker etc.

We have only one ‘elite’ player in Cripps, and then a bunch of potential A-graders and a bunch of former A-graders like Murphy, Simpson and Kreuzer. Then Docherty who is a formerly elite HBF, who we will wait and see on.

 

[La Dispute]

I'll happily have him down back with May as a traditional CHB to let Lever do his thing it that rebounding role. Especially with Frost gone, and not particularly wanting O-Mac near the best 22. vandenBerg might take that other wing, him or Salem perhaps.

Tomlinson is a little bit suspect one one one, and is more suited to that third tall defender role.

You could still play 4 talls (May, OMac, Tomlinson and Lever) to fit your structure. West Coast do something similar.

 

[dylan93]

Tomlinson is a little bit suspect one one one, and is more suited to that third tall defender role.

You could still play 4 talls (May, OMac, Tomlinson and Lever) to fit your structure. West Coast do something similar.

Would much prefer any and all of Hore/J. Smith/Hibberd/etc in instead of O-Mac.

 

[faible]

Fair enough on the terminology. In that case when you’re using previous seasons results to determine elite status (A grade) for 2020 there is nothing that suggests someone like Docherty to return to exactly where he was in 2017 (champion data ranks daw and ward as elite which this should place him there too) and for players like Weitering and or jones to make that improvement. Both during periods of previous years were in the conversation. Jones was classified as elite according to champion data in his first season as a defender (2018) it’s only successive games that’s causing him not to be so now. Weitering will replace Rance in 2020 as the number 1 key defender in the game. His final month of 2019 was A grade. Kept hawkins to zero goals in round 23 despite losing the game by over 10 goals. Murphy was classified as A grade in 2017 as well as 2011 winning the AFLCA which preceded the Brownlow traditionally. Two broken shoulders held him back for the next few seasons. Im
Not saying he is guaranteed to return to A grade status but it’s been shown that a full preseason for him moves him up a class. The debate was that Carlton don’t have any A graders but Cripps. I’m arguing that Murphy is/was one.

Final 10 games of season (average)

27 disposals
1 goal
5 inside 50s

if that’s not A grade I don’t know what is.

Bolded statement is bold. I think Weitering is tracking well after Bolton tried him up forward in his second season, but guys like Talia and Harris Andrews have a far better claim on the best KPD front.

Murphy, Jones, Kreuzer and Docherty all have had issues with continuity, and Docherty is an unknown as to how he'll return, for the sake of my SuperCoach team I hope he gets back to his old level pretty quickly.

If Murphy plays at that level across a whole season then sure, he'd be counted as an A-grader yet again, perhaps with some more maturity in the young guys he'll be able to get more continuity with a bit more protection in the middle - same for Cripps.

 

[tiger_tough]

Cripps will be elite this year. Weitering Jones Walsh mckay Docherty will be A graders.

Do you really expect Docherty to be back to his best in 2020 after 2 consecutive ACLs? It's stretch to say that he'll get back to his best ever again let alone next year.

 

[Red_man2008]

Do you really expect Docherty to be back to his best in 2020 after 2 consecutive ACLs? It's stretch to say that he'll get back to his best ever again let alone next year.

Track reports are positive. Back with the flight as he usually did. Structure and leadership around him just gets him the ball ALOT. He will be close to what he was. Now Walsh in the other hand has gone to another level. And Dow no longer has problems with his kicking. Not a lot of people will get near Walsh in 2020.

 

[Cotchins Hair Piece]

I remember when I had the school-boy blind optimism ala many Carlton supporters on this thread. Your team will climb the ladder, no doubt, but some players are being wildly overrated based on observing part of a pre-season

 

[La Dispute]

I remember when I had the school-boy blind optimism ala many Carlton supporters on this thread. Your team will climb the ladder, no doubt, but some players are being wildly overrated based on observing part of a pre-season

I don’t think this is the case at all. Guys like Walsh, Weitering, McKay, SPS are prime candidates to turn into A-graders on the basis of their form from last season and natural progression that accompanies experience and further conditioning and strength that comes over a pre-season.

Surely after year 1 you just knew Oliver was going to eventually dominate? That’s how every Carlton supporter feels about Sam Walsh.

The others are just about to hit the sweet spot.

 

[Ambrosia]

Langdon is a reasonable player and fits a nice as a link up mid, but has Tomlinson ever played a full season as an outside midfielder?

Yeah surely Tomlinson slots into CHB and they do away with Oscar Mcdonald who is no good.