WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[PhatBoy]

Since 1979 when the NS medal was introduced there has been one 3 time NS medalist. Will you be alive in another 43 years? My prediction is fine to make based in the average. 4 people have multiple norms since then how many dual Brownlow medalists have there been?


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There have been 15 multiple Brownlow winners. There have been 4 multiple norm smith winners.

Of course it’s is harder to win a norm smith theoretically because you are depending on 6 months worth of results just to have the chance to play for one. Anyone who plays for any team can win a brownlow. You’re comparing two totally different metrics

It’s just as easy to turn around and say ‘what’s easier, winning an award over 22 rounds against 500 opponents or winning an award over 100 minutes against 43?’

 

[Falcon3518]

Where are these many games that Martin has risen up and lifted the tigers over the line in a final by a point?

He hasn’t because the games haven’t been close so by your own admission you’d have to not rate Dusty’s games very highly. Especially his first two Norm Smith’s when tigers crushed an imploding crows and then a giants team that may as well not have shown up.

Whereas GAJ did claw his team over the line in the 2007 PF.

It would be crazy not to acknowledge Dusty’s 3 Norm Smiths. But that’s the argument you are making.

And if two players got the exact same stats the player in the closest game would be more memorable and likely a better game due to tougher opposition. But you do know GAJ’s stats are significantly better than Dusty’s right?

Not in BOGs he hasn’t, Dusty has a better BOG % rate in finals so that is the stat. If GAJ is getting those other supreme stats and still not getting BOG’s what is that telling you? He’s not as damaging/influential in finals, losing 08 GF and that horrid 2010 season is evidence. That’s it really. Dunno why you guys think he’s peak is untouchable it’s clearly not.


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[PhatBoy]

Not in BOGs he hasn’t, Dusty has a better BOG % rate in finals so that is the stat. If GAJ is getting those other supreme stats and still not getting BOG’s what is that telling you? He’s not as damaging/influential in finals, losing 08 GF and that horrid 2010 season is evidence. That’s it really. Dunno why you guys think he’s peak is untouchable it’s clearly not.


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What is it that stops you from understanding that a player doesn’t have to be best on ground in one match to outperform a player who was best on ground in another?

 

[H00t]

Not in BOGs he hasn’t, Dusty has a better BOG % rate in finals so that is the stat. If GAJ is getting those other supreme stats and still not getting BOG’s what is that telling you? He’s not as damaging/influential in finals, losing 08 GF and that horrid 2010 season is evidence. That’s it really. Dunno why you guys think he’s peak is untouchable it’s clearly not.


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You do realise that outside gf’s BOG’s in finals weren’t recorded during Ablett’s peak years and that the coaches award was only introduced in 2016.

As for BOG’s what’s important is the level of your teammates and who you played against. GAJ faced stiffer competition in both regards.

Plus the competition has become much more “superstar” centric the last couple of years. See the Brownlow etc. where votes and accolades are going to a very small group rather than being as spread out as they were.

 

[Fadge]

Not in BOGs he hasn’t, Dusty has a better BOG % rate in finals so that is the stat. If GAJ is getting those other supreme stats and still not getting BOG’s what is that telling you? He’s not as damaging/influential in finals, losing 08 GF and that horrid 2010 season is evidence. That’s it really. Dunno why you guys think he’s peak is untouchable it’s clearly not.

'That horrid 2010 season' for Geelong...

You might want to go back and watch GAJ's Preliminary Final against Collingwood in that year if that's part of your argument.

 

[Falcon3518]

What is it that stops you from understanding that a player doesn’t have to be best on ground in one match to outperform a player who was best on ground in another?

It can happen but Dusty did it so often that the finals record has to be considered better, getting that many BOGs is unheard off. You seem to look at it as an isolated game rather than a body of work.

 

[Falcon3518]

You do realise that outside gf’s BOG’s in finals weren’t recorded during Ablett’s peak years and that the coaches award was only introduced in 2016.

As for BOG’s what’s important is the level of your teammates and who you played against. GAJ faced stiffer competition in both regards.

Plus the competition has become much more “superstar” centric the last couple of years. See the Brownlow etc. where votes and accolades are going to a very small group rather than being as spread out as they were.

Yes I’m aware of this, even taking that into account, GAJ never dominated 3 finals series like Dusty did.


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[faible]

Didn’t lose a finals match? Are you serious?

Are you that daft that you would ignore the fact that Jordan for his 6 titles played alongside literally the next best all-round player in the competition?
If Jordan didn’t exist and you looked around the entire league at that time for the best combination of offence/defence/scoring/rebounding/passing in any single player, it was literally his own teammate Pippen.
The greatest pure rebounding forward of all time was in the side for 3 of the titles.

What sort of sports fan DOESNT analyse these things?

More to the point, what sort of sports fan makes a call like ‘it’s judged on titles’ and then DOESNT nominate Bill Russell as being better than Jordan?

Let the grown ups talk.

His basketball analysis is about as insightful as his AFL analysis.

Also melt day 6 now. What a world.

 

[Falcon3518]

'That horrid 2010 season' for Geelong...

You might want to go back and watch GAJ's Preliminary Final against Collingwood in that year if that's part of your argument.

Cats lost the QF then got smashed in the prelim. They were a dynasty team at the peak of their powers, if GAJ was also playing at his peak I have no idea how they lost. Apparently the best team ever with the best player ever both in their prime but still lost in 2 finals one of them being a smashing. Does this not seem odd to you people? You can’t have it both ways.


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[PhatBoy]

It can happen but Dusty did it so often that the finals record has to be considered better, getting that many BOGs is unheard off. You seem to look at it as an isolated game rather than a body of work.

Yes his RECORD is indisputable and that has never been in doubt and neither has the fact that he HAS played incredibly well in finals, no one is going to disagree with that.

Isolating his honours, and awards though, is not what should be assessed. Those things are nice, and yes they enhance the idea that he has played well in grand finals, no denial of that.

All it does is mean that he was recognised for his performances at a level higher than others - it doesn’t inherently make those performances themselves at a higher level.

And of course it’s a body of work he’s played really really well in three grand finals out of three.

The point i and everyone else has made though is that it those awards don’t automatically make the performances better.

A really obvious example would be Gary Ayers after whom the finals medal is named.

He won 2 norm smiths.

Now this is rooted in hypothetical because he DIDNT have a great 1989 grand final. But if he had 25 touches and had a huge impact on the result, he was never going to beat Gary Ablett Sr for the medal that day. Sr played arguably the best individual grand final ever. Ayers was NEVER going to win best on ground that day.

But if he had been exceptional and Hawthorn’s best player, he’d boast 2 norm smiths AND a BOG for his team in a classic 6 point grand final win.

Would it be fair to say ‘well he wasn’t as good in grand finals as Martin because Martin won 3 medals.’


Making that conclusion would blame Ayers for simply sharing the field with one of the most exceptional performances in the sport’s history. That would be unfair on Ayers as he can’t be held responsible for the performance of others.

And yes it works both ways - you equally can’t blame Martin for his teammates or opponents not being better either, I’m acknowledging that too.

 

[Falcon3518]

There have been 15 multiple Brownlow winners. There have been 4 multiple norm smith winners.

Of course it’s is harder to win a norm smith theoretically because you are depending on 6 months worth of results just to have the chance to play for one. Anyone who plays for any team can win a brownlow. You’re comparing two totally different metrics

It’s just as easy to turn around and say ‘what’s easier, winning an award over 22 rounds against 500 opponents or winning an award over 100 minutes against 43?’

Yeah I get that, I’m not arguing which is better or anything. It’s just in reference to the rarity of NS which you were talking about previously.


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[H00t]

Yes I’m aware of this, even taking that into account, GAJ never dominated 3 finals series like Dusty did.


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GAJ performances were every bit as good as Dusty’s. Only difference is other players around GAJ also played well.

Just because the people around someone play poorly doesn’t mean it elevates that persons game.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Don’t you guys find it weird that GAJ is meant to have the best peak and consistency yet his finals record isn’t as good as the other two and cats lost in 08 and did crap in 2010, they are apparently meant to have the best dynasty list too? Imo you guys aren’t remembering his bad games and are severely overrating him, he wasn’t unbeatable.

Simply put peak years include finals, GAJ didn’t achieve what the other two did in them. You can say he’s peak in H&A was the best but that’s it. He has never dominated a finals series, only BOG a few times in finals. Again the cats won without him in 2011 and lost with him in 08 and 10. 07 and 09 they win with or without him. GAJ is almost a non factor to the cats success. Not like the other two. Finals > H&A hence why their peaks are better imo if you look at the seasons as a whole.

GAJ was BOG in the 2008 GF, Hodge was gifted the Norm due to Hawks winning and the 'good bloke' effect, but all he did was go 3rd man up all day matched up on an injured Stokes.

None of them are unbeatable, but GAJ very rarely had bad games, much less often than Dusty, who has been a plodder most of his career.

 

[Falcon3518]

GAJ performances were every bit as good as Dusty’s. Only difference is other players around GAJ also played well.

Just because the people around someone play poorly doesn’t mean it elevates that persons game.

To me carrying the team more makes the performances more impressive as it is harder to do. If your teammates are better around you you indirectly play better, eg better taps from the ruck better mids passing to you etc. bar Dusty our mid wasn’t close to being as good as the cats was, GAJ had a much easier time with players like Bartel etc

You also have to keep in mind Dusty had another role to play. He has to monitor when it is better for the team if he stays in the mid if we are getting smashed or if he needs to go forward cause we can’t score. Much more responsibility imo. Not sure if you guys know but Dusty doesn’t get told where to play, he decides himself and tells the others where to go to adjust for his movements. He’s another on field captain essentially. Very very impressive almost unmatched difficulty to execute those 2 roles whiling being BOG in 3 finals series. I don’t think GAJ did that which is why I don’t think his peak is better.


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[Falcon3518]

Yes his RECORD is indisputable and that has never been in doubt and neither has the fact that he HAS played incredibly well in finals, no one is going to disagree with that.

Isolating his honours, and awards though, is not what should be assessed. Those things are nice, and yes they enhance the idea that he has played well in grand finals, no denial of that.

All it does is mean that he was recognised for his performances at a level higher than others - it doesn’t inherently make those performances themselves at a higher level.

And of course it’s a body of work he’s played really really well in three grand finals out of three.

The point i and everyone else has made though is that it those awards don’t automatically make the performances better.

A really obvious example would be Gary Ayers after whom the finals medal is named.

He won 2 norm smiths.

Now this is rooted in hypothetical because he DIDNT have a great 1989 grand final. But if he had 25 touches and had a huge impact on the result, he was never going to beat Gary Ablett Sr for the medal that day. Sr played arguably the best individual grand final ever. Ayers was NEVER going to win best on ground that day.

But if he had been exceptional and Hawthorn’s best player, he’d boast 2 norm smiths AND a BOG for his team in a classic 6 point grand final win.

Would it be fair to say ‘well he wasn’t as good in grand finals as Martin because Martin won 3 medals.’


Making that conclusion would blame Ayers for simply sharing the field with one of the most exceptional performances in the sport’s history. That would be unfair on Ayers as he can’t be held responsible for the performance of others.

And yes it works both ways - you equally can’t blame Martin for his teammates or opponents not being better either, I’m acknowledging that too.

I think I answered your question sufficiently in my latest response to Hoot


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[Lunchlady Doris]

'That horrid 2010 season' for Geelong...

You might want to go back and watch GAJ's Preliminary Final against Collingwood in that year if that's part of your argument.

Seemed to be the only one trying at times.

 

[Back One Out]

A really obvious example would be Gary Ayers after whom the finals medal is named. He won 2 norm smiths.

Now this is rooted in hypothetical because he DIDNT have a great 1989 grand final. But if he had 25 touches and had a huge impact on the result, he was never going to beat Gary Ablett Sr for the medal that day. Sr played arguably the best individual grand final ever. Ayers was NEVER going to win best on ground that day.

But if he had been exceptional and Hawthorn’s best player, he’d boast 2 norm smiths AND a BOG for his team in a classic 6 point grand final win.

Would it be fair to say ‘well he wasn’t as good in grand finals as Martin because Martin won 3 medals.’

Making that conclusion would blame Ayers for simply sharing the field with one of the most exceptional performances in the sport’s history. That would be unfair on Ayers as he can’t be held responsible for the performance of others.

And yes it works both ways - you equally can’t blame Martin for his teammates or opponents not being better either, I’m acknowledging that too.

Ayres tore a quad muscle in the opening minutes of the '89 Grand Final. Him and the concussed John Platten sat on the bench for virtually the entire game. One of the reasons it was such a legendary win by the Hawks over a very good opponent. Any other team would've lost.

You have to wonder how many fewer goals the great Gary Ablett would've kicked if the Hawks hadn't been so banged up and short-handed.
The Cats basically ran over the top of Hawthorn in the last quarter with Ablett kicking 3 or 4 goals in the last quarter


I watched a replay of the 1991 Grand Final a while ago and Gary Ayres was unbelievable. Such a champion defender. One of the all time greats. He suffered a broken cheekbone in the first half of the '88 Grand Final, moved into the centre, dominated the game and won his 2nd Norm Smith

 

[Romeoh1]

St Kilda 2009-2010 was a very, very good team - IMO the best team to not win a premiership in the last couple of decades (discounting cases like Geelong 2008 and Richmond 2018, because practically the same team won in other years).

Very good team that deserved at least 1 flag in that era. Footy gods can be cruel.

 

[Falcon3518]

GAJ was BOG in the 2008 GF, Hodge was gifted the Norm due to Hawks winning and the 'good bloke' effect, but all he did was go 3rd man up all day matched up on an injured Stokes.

None of them are unbeatable, but GAJ very rarely had bad games, much less often than Dusty, who has been a plodder most of his career.

Dusty has 9th most Brownlow votes in the history of the game, more than even Lethal and will most likely overtake Judd. What nonsense to call him a plodder, he even has 4 AAs on top of it.

Look Hodge got BOG that’s it, the voters must have seen something you missed probably on field leadership or something.


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[H00t]

To me carrying the team more makes the performances more impressive as it is harder to do. If your teammates are better around you you indirectly play better, eg better taps from the ruck better mids passing to you etc. bar Dusty our mid wasn’t close to being as good as the cats was, GAJ had a much easier time with players like Bartel etc

You also have to keep in mind Dusty had another role to play. He has to monitor when it is better for the team if he stays in the mid if we are getting smashed or if he needs to go forward cause we can’t score. Much more responsibility imo. Not sure if you guys know but Dusty doesn’t get told where to play, he decides himself and tells the others where to go to adjust for his movements. He’s another on field captain essentially. Very very impressive almost unmatched difficulty to execute those 2 roles whiling being BOG in 3 finals series. I don’t think GAJ did that which is why I don’t think his peak is better.


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You do know it’s harder to stand out the better your teammates are right? More of a load spread between teammates. Each doing the team things.

GAJ had a better footballing peak because he best football is better than Dusty’s and by a decent distance.

Which is not to understate how good Dusty was but underline how unbelievable GAJ was.

And the fact to even try and argue you have to put so many qualifiers on Dusty’s performance and drag down GAJ to try and put Dusty ahead proves my point.

 

[PhatBoy]

Cats lost the QF then got smashed in the prelim. They were a dynasty team at the peak of their powers, if GAJ was also playing at his peak I have no idea how they lost. Apparently the best team ever with the best player ever both in their prime but still lost in 2 finals one of them being a smashing. Does this not seem odd to you people? You can’t have it both ways.


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Same reason teams with Martin, Matthews, Judd, Lockett, Skilton, Carey, and every other player considered among the best ever lost matches.


Why put that expectation on Ablett - ‘mate you ONLY won 2 flags at your peak when you were playing for a contender in four years’ when another player easily in the greatest ever debate - Carey - won 2 flags when his peak with North stretched over a run of 7 consecutive preliminary finals appearances?

Why is GAJ held to a different standard than Carey?

 

[PhatBoy]

Dusty has 9th most Brownlow votes in the history of the game, more than even Lethal and will most likely overtake Judd. What nonsense to call him a plodder, he even has 4 AAs on top of it.

Look Hodge got BOG that’s it, the voters must have seen something you missed probably on field leadership or something.


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Hodge got BoG because they won and that’s fair enough that’s usually how it goes. He was outstanding and marshalled his team beautifully.

 

[Back One Out]

GAJ was BOG in the 2008 GF, Hodge was gifted the Norm due to Hawks winning and the 'good bloke' effect, but all he did was go 3rd man up all day matched up on an injured Stokes.

None of them are unbeatable, but GAJ very rarely had bad games, much less often than Dusty, who has been a plodder most of his career.

Luke Hodge played one of the great games in the 2008 Grand Final. Geelong would've won a hat trick of premierships and been hailed as the greatest team in the history of the game were it not for Luke Hodge operating as a virtual road block and snuffing out every attacking move forwards by Geelong.

That's no exaggeration either. Hodge's influence on that game of footy cannot be understated. One of the all-time great defensive efforts in an AFL Grand Final. The Cats literally went out of their gameplan in trying to avoid him and find another avenue towards goal. There were moments in that game when Hodge didn't even get a possession, but Geelong players took their eye off the ball as Hodge charged at them and they fumbled away scoring chances inside fifty.

Bomber Thompson famously had NFI how the Cats lost that game - he couldn't give an explanation as to what happened - but weeks later, he watched a replay of the game and just shook his head and said "F**kin Luke Hodge..." [that's a quote from an interview he did]

Gazza racked up 34 disposals, most of them fairly meaningless, a lot of ineffective 1-2's on the back of the centre square.
He was very twinkle-toed and looked pretty to watch at times. Don't get me wrong: he played well. But he was nowhere near BOG

Stuart Dew was probably the 2nd best player on the ground after Hodgey. Had 20 possessions and had a massive impact with most of those. Pretty much won the game with his 5 minute burst in the 3rd quarter, but he was very good all day.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ayres tore a quad muscle in the opening minutes of the '89 Grand Final. Him and the concussed John Platten sat on the bench for virtually the entire game. One of the reasons it was such a legendary win by the Hawks over a very good opponent. Any other team would've lost.

You have to wonder how many fewer goals the great Gary Ablett would've kicked if the Hawks hadn't been so banged up and short-handed.
The Cats basically ran over the top of Hawthorn in the last quarter with Ablett kicking 3 or 4 goals in the last quarter


I watched a replay of the 1991 Grand Final a while ago and Gary Ayres was unbelievable. Such a champion defender. One of the all time greats. He suffered a broken cheekbone in the first half of the '88 Grand Final, moved into the centre, dominated the game and won his 2nd Norm Smith

Absolutely and that enhances my point. He could have won the 91 medal as well - he didn’t but he was still sensational. To me in assessing just a grand final players pecking order would put him alongside Martin

 

[Falcon3518]

You do know it’s harder to stand out the better your teammates are right? More of a load spread between teammates. Each doing the team things.

GAJ had a better footballing peak because he best football is better than Dusty’s and by a decent distance.

Which is not to understate how good Dusty was but underline how unbelievable GAJ was.

And the fact to even try and argue you have to put so many qualifiers on Dusty’s performance and drag down GAJ to try and put Dusty ahead proves my point.

Idk man you’d think the most consistent player with the best peak ever would at least win 1 norm Smith from 4 GFs. How many more GFs did he need ffs.


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