No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[bomberman500]

Hird and Corcoran were the architects of the supplement program - To say otherwise is plain silly.

Yes, does not mean they were the willing architects of an illegal supplements program.
Hird and Corcoran both have superiors, as does dank. If we want to put Hird/Corcoran into the same category as dank then the whole club must be put in there as well.

 

[84859300]

That's not at all what I'm arguing.

He resigned, he wasn't sacked.

Purely semantics Ben.

Are you suggesting that if he didn't resign that he would still currently be in a position at EFC??

 

[scottmclaren]

Purely semantics Ben.

Are you suggesting that if he didn't resign that he would still currently be in a position at EFC??

I suppose you think it's just semantics that Hird accepted his suspension as the AFL was going to suspend him anyway and give him full pay and study options out of their generosity.

In these examples the semantics are very important

 

[rumply]

Stumbled upon this on this site -

http://www.bigfooty.com/news/2014/07/essendon-and-hird-receive-sensitive-asada-documents/

ASADA has been ordered to give investigation documents to the Essendon Football Club and James Hird. We asked litigator Natalie Hickey what this means.

In civil proceedings, the parties are required to file their evidence, usually in affidavit form. At trial these deponents will then be cross examined.

It is also part and parcel of the civil litigation process for the parties to engage in document discovery. Each party must produce relevant documents for inspection by the other side.

The test of ‘relevance‘ will be determined by the issues in the case, namely, whether a joint investigation was lawful or not. The documents relevant to this question can be categorised. For instance, any drafts of the Interim Report, any communications between Essendon and ASADA concerning the legality of the investigation, and so on.

Later, at trial, the inspecting party can decide whether to tender the documents as further evidence (e.g. if there is a ‘smoking gun’) or use them to cross-examine witnesses (e.g. “you said it was not a joint investigation but in this email you said it was”).

On its face, it seems very surprising that ASADA would be required to produce a range of very sensitive documents to Essendon and James Hird, particularly given that breach of confidentiality is one of the very matters they complain about in their Statements of Claim.

However, at the first directions hearing, Justice Middleton said that he would order discovery because he was keen to understand from primary documents exactly how the process worked (e.g. whether or not it was a joint investigation), rather than to rely on people’s recollections. This goal is completely understandable.

However, it has yielded an ironic result in which Essendon and James Hird are now privy to sensitive material that, for example, the 34 players are unable to access themselves. The peculiarity of this result is derived from the fact that the players are not parties to the litigation. Discovered documents may only be inspected by parties to the litigation, and each party is subject to an implied confidentiality undertaking not to disclose the contents to anyone unless for the precise purpose of the litigation itself.

Sometimes the Court will make additional orders about who may inspect discovered documents to help preserve this confidentiality. For instance, ‘Essendon Football Club’ is a party to the litigation which means theoretically all its employees (including those players who have received show cause notices who remain at the Club) can see the documents too.

That is why Justice Middleton has decided it is not necessary for, say, the boot studder or assistant coaches or most other EFC employees to see these documents. He has, however, permitted access to the ultimate decision makers of the Club with respect to the litigation (the Board) and to those likely to provide day to day instructions in the case. Confining access this way is standard practice where documents are sensitive.

Finally, it is worth noting that one of the key reasons why discovery was ordered (namely, whether there was a joint investigation) is no longer an issue because ASADA has conceded this in its Defence.

It does look like the documents ASADA will discover includes material concerning the show cause notices issued to the 34 players. It highlights the consequence of the players choosing not to be part of the case, and why the Judge was keen to ensure they made this decision on a well informed basis.

Some players may have issues with the litigation and with the Club itself. And yet, their employer and senior coach will now be able to see some sensitive material relevant to them either directly or indirectly, which they are not permitted to see themselves.

 

[84859300]

I suppose you think it's just semantics that Hird accepted his suspension as the AFL was going to suspend him anyway and give him full pay and study options out of their generosity.

In these examples the semantics are very important

My opinion is that if he didn't resign, that he most likely would have been sacked.

As has been raised previously in this thread by others; in the corporate world, if a major issue occurs within a company that not only the person who caused the issue is moved on...but there are cases that people at the top are also asked to go as well. Good, bad or indifferent, all AFL clubs are being run just like a corporate business and the old days of jobs for the boys and sweeping things under the carpet are well in the past.

The semantics comes down to what looks better to their next job appointment. If you say you resigned, it's on your terms and you can sprout many a reason on why it was your time to go. If you're sacked, mind you, there really is only one reason that you can hang your hat on.

In the case of senior members of the EFC, they are there no longer.

You choose on how you wish to see how their departure came about after the fact.

 

[Dave]

When did i write that Thompson is lying !

Do you think Bomber will tell the truth to the media ?

Of course not.

So to clarify, you're saying Bomber lies to the media?

Absolutely - It's called following the club line.

How else is that supposed to be interpreted?

Clubs and their employees say what suits the clubs needs. Do you think a player will come out and say they hate Caroline Wilson ? - Not on your life - But it's highly likely some players have no time for Caro - They don't say it publicly but according to your logic they must be telling the truth.

No, according to my logic, if a player comes out and says he doesn't hate Caro then I assume he doesn't hate Caro, I don't assume he's lying. Similarly, if Bomber publicly states he would have Hird back in the box then, well, he would have Hird back in the box.

 

[scottmclaren]

OK we agree. They have moved on and the details of how they left are important

 

[Dave]

I have no idea if Thompson wants Hird back

If you have no idea about what Bomber wants, how is it that you can say with such certainty that he is only towing the club line and insinuate that what he said about the media influencing the decision about Hird's return was incorrect?

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Yeah 2 members of the footy department left - This is hardly the whole Footy Department of 30 staff.

Robson was contracted and suddenly resigned. Didn't Robson leave shortly after the release of the Switkovski report? What was the subject of the Switkovski report.

Corcoran's contract wasn't renewed at the end of his suspension.

I am discussing staff who have left EFC since 2013 - You can continue discussing the vibe.

I believe the party line with this....in that Robson offered his resignation in February last year and the board asked him to stay on longer. Then after he resigned again they asked him if he would reconsider and he said no. He did not have the behaviour of someone who had been sacked, eg hanging around in the rooms after a game after he had left the club.

As for Corcoran, not sure what I think about that but I'd like to know what information you have to believe he was sacked rather than a person who was old enough and pissed off enough at the AFL to bother coming back.

 

[rines]

How dumb was I to think Caro could write an article that didn't blame EFC for everything...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-moves-to-win-back-fans-20140730-3cumg.html

So now we are part of the reason why attendances are falling.. my god...
The AFL has identified four key factors for the fall in Victorian attendances this season. In short, it blames its own fixture, complex ticketing, poor performances by Richmond, Carlton and St Kilda and fan fatigue over the Essendon drug scandal and its messy fallout.

I seriously worry for the AFL if they think we form 25% of the problem.. I think fixture, over-inflated and ridiculous pricing of tickets AND food/drinks at the grounds.. crap public transports.. woeful performance by Vic teams.. crap game play.. ugly defensive footy.. a bad winter.. AFL arrogance and lack of respect for the Victoria Heartland.. are the reason for your BS attendances..

Are they seriously believing that a Tigers fan wakes up and says "oh, I don't think I'll go watch today.. cause the Essendon Supplement program in 2011 might have been illegal"

And the AFL wonder why they have problems...

 

[Dave]

I am comfortable with my assessment - VLAD put the Libs offside on more than one occasion - Are you suggesting the ALP ( Govt at the time ) asked ASADA to renege on the agreement

No. I think once knowledge of the existence of the agreement became public ASADA themselves made the decision as they knew it could not stand up to public scrutiny.

- Why do you think all year the AFLPA said ' the players will be fine '

I don't know, maybe they believed the players hadn't broken the rules?

- Why do you think Jobe admitted that he may have used AOD ?

Based on what's been publicly stated, incorrect/confusing/conflicting advice was given and he knew he was on safe ground. His admission came well after the agreement was reneged on.

- Why would the AFL ask Essendon to self report if they had been target testing in 2012 with no positive results ? Because our club was informed the players would be all-clear .

Because the AFL (read the Golden Greek) s**t themselves when they found out one of their clubs was at the center of an ACC investigation and thought they could control it the way they had every other scandal that had occurred.

ASADA haven't jumped the shark with Cronulla.

No, not yet. How does any of this add up to the Libs (and I am not defending them as a voter, this is apolitical if that makes any sense) intervening to punish a mate of the ALP's?

 

[Dave]

Newman was actually on air trolling this evening. His comments would have most definitely riled up viewers from different sections of the peanut gallery.

What did he say?

 

[Doss]

How dumb was I to think Caro could write an article that didn't blame EFC for everything...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-moves-to-win-back-fans-20140730-3cumg.html

So now we are part of the reason why attendances are falling.. my god...
The AFL has identified four key factors for the fall in Victorian attendances this season. In short, it blames its own fixture, complex ticketing, poor performances by Richmond, Carlton and St Kilda and fan fatigue over the Essendon drug scandal and its messy fallout.

I seriously worry for the AFL if they think we form 25% of the problem.. I think fixture, over-inflated and ridiculous pricing of tickets AND food/drinks at the grounds.. crap public transports.. woeful performance by Vic teams.. crap game play.. ugly defensive footy.. a bad winter.. AFL arrogance and lack of respect for the Victoria Heartland.. are the reason for your BS attendances..

Are they seriously believing that a Tigers fan wakes up and says "oh, I don't think I'll go watch today.. cause the Essendon Supplement program in 2011 might have been illegal"

And the AFL wonder why they have problems...

It might have an effect on attendance at Essendon games.

To try and pin it on games league-wide is absolute horse s**t of the highest order.

 

[IggypopsTshirt]

What did he say?

I can't give you direct quotes for the entire spiel but he took the time to make a glowing endorsement of the current form of the side and said it was due to the club ignoring the morons at ASADA. He also said we have the luxury of having two champion coaches at our disposal who've organised a seamless transition to ensure minimal distraction to our boys who are "absolutely flying" and things are looking very good for the EFC.

Lyon tried to prompt him into saying Hird shouldn't return because of Bombers credentials but Sam wouldn't be drawn and simply said Hird is a gun and he'll have Thompson there with him to help out anyway.

 

[DonsRule]

How dumb was I to think Caro could write an article that didn't blame EFC for everything...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-moves-to-win-back-fans-20140730-3cumg.html

So now we are part of the reason why attendances are falling.. my god...
The AFL has identified four key factors for the fall in Victorian attendances this season. In short, it blames its own fixture, complex ticketing, poor performances by Richmond, Carlton and St Kilda and fan fatigue over the Essendon drug scandal and its messy fallout.

I seriously worry for the AFL if they think we form 25% of the problem.. I think fixture, over-inflated and ridiculous pricing of tickets AND food/drinks at the grounds.. crap public transports.. woeful performance by Vic teams.. crap game play.. ugly defensive footy.. a bad winter.. AFL arrogance and lack of respect for the Victoria Heartland.. are the reason for your BS attendances..

Are they seriously believing that a Tigers fan wakes up and says "oh, I don't think I'll go watch today.. cause the Essendon Supplement program in 2011 might have been illegal"

And the AFL wonder why they have problems...

Josh Bornstein @JoshBBornstein · 2h
Note to @theage . Attendances at AFL games is not a page 1, 8 & 9 issue. FFS.

 

[84859300]

OK we agree. They have moved on and the details of how they left are important

No. I'm not agreeing with you at all.

My point is that these people would have left the club, either by resignation or by being sacked anyway. The fact that the club 'accepted' the resignations, only allows the people who resigned to say that they left on their own terms.

Again, my opinion is that they left due to the shoddy way the club handled the whole affair to start with and to ensure the fall out was minimal in going forward. The way that they left is not important in the slightest - merely semantics.

 

[rines]

It might have an effect on attendance at Essendon games.

To try and pin it on games league-wide is absolute horse s**t of the highest order.

Yes.. but that is the thing.. our attendance has held pretty steady.. the only drops related to the s**t stain of a time slot on Sunday night (which NO ONE can make a winner)...

I also find it highly annoying and ironic that Caro talks about people have 'fatigue' over the EFC issue.. when she is the one that has caused it by writing 2 articles a day on the topic.. myopic stupidity of some people..

Also attendances have been 'dropping' in Vic in real terms for four years.. so well before our 'saga' hit.. the AFL just covered it up with selective reporting ( a bit like their 'best Round 3 attendance of all time' release back in March when the stink had well and truly started)

The availability of Foxtel has an impact too.. but we don't seem to ever mention that.. that you can get the sports package with 9 live games a week for around $70 a month.. so for the cost of taking my family to around 4 'live' games.. I can get foxtel package (including all the junk my partner and kids watch) for the ENTIRE 12 month year for the same price.. going live just doesn't add up financially.

The only reason why I attend live is due to a passion for my club.. as I've said many times before.. will the next generation have that same passion for live sport? Will they be fervent enough to fork out $150 to see a footy match when they can watch for 180 different angles in the pub down the road? Or split a slab and pizza at a mates for $20?

 

[Doss]

Nah, our attendances are down in spite of Sunday nights. 33k against Footscray, 36k against St Kilda, 30k against Adelaide...all of those are disappointing.

But, they're no worse than the drops that have been recorded for other teams, really.

 

[Jade]

Nah, our attendances are down in spite of Sunday nights. 33k against Footscray, 36k against St Kilda, 30k against Adelaide...all of those are disappointing.

But, they're no worse than the drops that have been recorded for other teams, really.

Well, the AFL puts TV ahead of friendly attendance times - honestly what does anyone expect?

A 23 round season, and NINE Saturday arvo games at the 'G FFS..... As far as I'm concerned there should be a game at the 'G on Saturday arvo on MOST weekends.

 

[60sbomber]

If ASADA and WADA rules are plainly black and white
Then How can AOD be a grey area?

As I have said a few times now (what hasn't already been said in this saga?), WADA rules are far from black and white.

S2 bans substances that "act like" (paraphrasing) HGH. It is very murky what "acts like".
WADA maintain some list of substances it deems banned because they "act like". But if something is not on the list, you use it at your own risk, because it may later be added to the list, and when it is, it is deemed to have "acted like" since the day dot.

This may well have been what happened with TB4.
It is not clear when it was first listed - many have talked about it being first assessed around the time of the Tour de France in 2011. But no-one seems sure when WADA first listed it, or when ASADA picked up that listing, or when someone like Dank would have become aware it was listed by WADA or ASADA. There is plenty of room for Dank to have been unaware of its officially being banned because of this. Until it was officially banned, and that ban was made known to potential users via a publicised listing, it was potentially used by people like Dank, who might have been unaware that it was banned. And, in fact, it might not have been banned at the time they used it, but it would have become banned retrospectively when it was banned.

Make sense? Is it fair and reasonable?
I don't think so.
But hey, that's the way WADA do it. Let the user beware.

 

[rumply]

Well, the AFL puts TV ahead of friendly attendance times - honestly what does anyone expect?

A 23 round season, and NINE Saturday arvo games at the 'G FFS..... As far as I'm concerned there should be a game at the 'G on Saturday arvo on MOST weekends.

& no Sunday twilights anywhere east of the sa border

 

[rines]

Nah, our attendances are down in spite of Sunday nights. 33k against Footscray, 36k against St Kilda, 30k against Adelaide...all of those are disappointing.

But, they're no worse than the drops that have been recorded for other teams, really.

I should have stipulated the word 'relative'.. ie it hasn't been a 30% drop in EFC attendances and just 5% for everyone else..

I was worried about attendances last year and started a thread against after Round 2 this year.. they are a massive concern and unfortunately I think the AFL is only playing lip service to the problems..

I mean again.. if Caro is right and this is from the AFL.. that it is fan fatigue over EFC.. then heaven help us.. I get that you will have a lot of people 'claim' that they are fatigued about the EFC thing.. and they probably are.. but that isn't the real reason why they aren't going to the footy.. it has just become a convenient excuse for the fact they either can't be bothered, can't afford it or don't want to. It is still very hard for a lot of people to admit "I simply can't afford it"... not that the prices are too high etc.. but they literally do not have enough money to attend the game.

I think attendance would be down even if the ASADA thing never happened.. the fixture is that bad.. the prices that high.. the game that ugly.. foxtel that affordable.. it was inevitable.

 

[kfc1]

How dumb was I to think Caro could write an article that didn't blame EFC for everything...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-moves-to-win-back-fans-20140730-3cumg.html

So now we are part of the reason why attendances are falling.. my god...
The AFL has identified four key factors for the fall in Victorian attendances this season. In short, it blames its own fixture, complex ticketing, poor performances by Richmond, Carlton and St Kilda and fan fatigue over the Essendon drug scandal and its messy fallout.

I seriously worry for the AFL if they think we form 25% of the problem.. I think fixture, over-inflated and ridiculous pricing of tickets AND food/drinks at the grounds.. crap public transports.. woeful performance by Vic teams.. crap game play.. ugly defensive footy.. a bad winter.. AFL arrogance and lack of respect for the Victoria Heartland.. are the reason for your BS attendances..

Are they seriously believing that a Tigers fan wakes up and says "oh, I don't think I'll go watch today.. cause the Essendon Supplement program in 2011 might have been illegal"

And the AFL wonder why they have problems...

Taking the position that Caro is correct (lol) in her claim that fan fatigue is affecting attendances, hasn't she just pointed out she is a major reason why attendances are down??

 

[cymarak]

Has the AFL done anything in the last 5 years that would improve attendances ?

Pretty much everything - scheduling, ticket prices, (initially) uncompetitive expansion teams, frequent rule changes, etc. - has worked in the opposite direction.

The AFL decided a while ago that match attendances were just one component of the 'success' of football - and by no means the most important component - and their decision-making reflects that.

 

[rines]

Has the AFL done anything in the last 5 years that would improve attendances ?

Pretty much everything - scheduling, ticket prices, (initially) uncompetitive expansion teams, frequent rule changes, etc. - has worked in the opposite direction.

The AFL decided a while ago that match attendances were just one component of the 'success' of football - and by no means the most important factor - and their decision-making reflects that.

Spot On.

As I said... "lip service" to attendances nothing more... as long as they TV dollars keep rolling.. they are happy.

Problem is.. what happens when there aren't enough eyes watching TV sets to justify the big $$.. we already have half the clubs on life support.. I just think the AFL are so short sighted.. they have lost track of where they came from.. it was only 15-20 years ago that it jumped from a small 'suburban' style comp to this mega conglomerate.. and everybody is now convinced it will be this Bohemith forever..

I just don't know if they can afford to be so cavalier with the game I love.