Show Cause Notices v2.0 sent out by ASADA

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The GG said:
as I have previously mentioned, everything you have written (which has plenty of gaps for the lawyers to play around with), gets you as far as proving the opening line in ASADA's case below:
  • the consent forms refer to "thymosin"
  • 34 players signed consent forms
  • therefore 34 players were administered with TB4

it remains a big jump from thymosin on the consent forms to 34 players being administered with TB4
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Even considering there is only a trail of TB4 to the club? That no trail of "good thymosin" seems to exist? That the dosage matches TB4? That the effects described by Dank match TB4?

The only time thymomodulin seems to have been mentioned is when Dank says "oh sorry I meant Thymomodulin not Tymosin Beta 4".

Anyway, when it gets back to the AFL they will protect their income and ban the players for sweet FA time so as not to disrupt season 2015.
 
The GG said:
actually, I don't need to prove anything
this is the crux of ASADA's case
noting that we now know for sure that ASADA has zero hard evidence relating directly to any one individual player being adminisered with TB4
needless to say, even if by some miracle ASADA manages to convince everyone that thymosin = thymosin beta 4
they are still miles off proving that everyone of the 34 players was actually administered with TB4
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They don't have to prove it. They just have to be comfortably satisfied that it happened.
 
Jimthegreat said:
Intent alone is usually to get athletes 2 years. Once signed on a consent form it's the same as getting it. It's not going to be on a consent form anyway unless they received it. Besides you've had Dank's admission and texts between he and Hird admitting injections. That's my 2 lines, ASADA has another 350 pages plus I'd say much more when at the Tribunal. Essendon's refute of the evidence "we have no records so no idea of what we took, but we didn't take anything illegal". No paper trail of thymomodulin or TA1 only the TB4. From a layman's view from the bits we have ASADA have set up a decent circumstantial case and got some big wigs in to do it.
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My point was the "consent forms" are worthless as they don't prove anything. They only serve as a "confession"
 

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Sloth said:
My point was the "consent forms" are worthless as they don't prove anything. They only serve as a "confession"
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Not true.

They are valuable for the club, in that if any player does try and sue the club, then the club can show they were indeed told they were going to be doped, and had ample opportunities to do their own due diligence.

Sure, they bend the players over sideways, but thats what you get when you make the mistake of trusting James Hird.
 
HoopsAhoy said:
"journalists" - lololol Should just be called "opinionists".

Investigation? Facts? Fuggedaboutit.

Once upon a time when newspapers wanted to publish "opinions" it was in the "editorial" section or "letters pages" or "columnists' pages".

Now every "news story" is largely an "opinion piece".
And they wonder why "journalists" have such a crappy reputation - up there with car salesmen, real estate agents and politicians.
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exactly: That's why I always laugh about their insdustry 'Walkley Awards"... an award given to Journalists, BY journalists! an award for lying awarded by other liars,... can there be a lower standard of award in any walk of life?
 
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AstroboyUK said:
exactly: That's why I always laugh about their insdustry 'Walkley Awards"... an award given to Journalists, BY journalists! an award for lying awarded by other liars,... can there be a lower standard of award in any walk of life?
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What's the politician version of a Walkley Award. There's your lower standard of award.

ps. maybe the used car salesman version of the Walkley.
 
IanW said:
Not true.

They are valuable for the club, in that if any player does try and sue the club, then the club can show they were indeed told they were going to be doped, and had ample opportunities to do their own due diligence.

Sure, they bend the players over sideways, but thats what you get when you make the mistake of trusting James Hird.
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What of Reid also signed off on the consent forms (I don't know this). Club doctor's ok would be a mitigating factor, surely.
 
RegHickeyStand said:
What of Reid also signed off on the consent forms (I don't know this). Club doctor's ok would be a mitigating factor, surely.
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For WADA ? Strict liability applies.

For a lawsuit ? Essendon folding like a cheap suit over The Weapon is a sign of the future, but it depends how desperate they get.
 
Australia's most senior Olympic official reinforced his view that all athletes remained responsible for the substances they ingested, whether or not they intended to cheat.

"I can understand this view from the big team sports and from what we've seen from Cronulla and Essendon that the clubs needed to show a greater duty of care to their athletes," Coates told Fairfax Media. "But these are professional athletes and they are responsible for what they ingest. They have got enough advice. They make the decision ultimately to take the substance.

"At the 2000 Sydney Games, we had a 16-year-old gymnast Andreea Raducan, who took a tablet from her team doctor for a cold and tested positive. She was stripped of her gold medal. Everyone should be well aware of the rules."

Coates said another lesson from the AFL and NRL scandals was that the clubs and support staff involved had not taken enough responsibility for those scandals.

"The clubs should and the coaches and the doctors should accept a greater responsibility for what they allowed to take place," he said.
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http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-for-asada-investigation-20141024-11bhfc.html
 

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TigerTime3 said:
A million times this.

A 16yo girl took a cold tablet from her trusted doctor and was stripped of an Olympic Gold Medal. You would think this puts things into perspective.
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No there AFL footballers they can't no better. It all everyone else's fault. Did she sue the team doctor or take her medicine on the chin? The players need to understand they stuffed up to.
 
Chief said:
Even considering there is only a trail of TB4 to the club? That no trail of "good thymosin" seems to exist? That the dosage matches TB4? That the effects described by Dank match TB4?

The only time thymomodulin seems to have been mentioned is when Dank says "oh sorry I meant Thymomodulin not Tymosin Beta 4".

Anyway, when it gets back to the AFL they will protect their income and ban the players for sweet FA time so as not to disrupt season 2015.
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Sadly, you are probably right.
 
IanW said:
Not true.

They are valuable for the club, in that if any player does try and sue the club, then the club can show they were indeed told they were going to be doped, and had ample opportunities to do their own due diligence.

Sure, they bend the players over sideways, but thats what you get when you make the mistake of trusting James Hird.
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Exactly. The consent was effectively from the player to say "I will take this". The club is protected.
 
Perry Pie said:
Exactly. The consent was effectively from the player to say "I will take this". The club is protected.
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Nope, it like putting up a sign which says "by entering our store you agree to no refunds"
It doesn't override the law

Essendon cannot "injure" players whether physically or psychologically and then say, "we can do it because they signed a waiver". A person or organisation cannot sign away a statutory responsibility (common law might be different). There are so many steps and variables that need to take place to get even close to that being an out for them it would never realistically be considered.
 
Chief said:
Even considering there is only a trail of TB4 to the club? That no trail of "good thymosin" seems to exist? That the dosage matches TB4? That the effects described by Dank match TB4?

The only time thymomodulin seems to have been mentioned is when Dank says "oh sorry I meant Thymomodulin not Tymosin Beta 4".

Anyway, when it gets back to the AFL they will protect their income and ban the players for sweet FA time so as not to disrupt season 2015.
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but is there a trail of TB4 to the club?
that would be a useful dot point to add, if it has been proven
but even then, and this point is important, we are still a good way off proving that each and everyone of the 34 players were administered with TB4
hard to argue with the last point, a worse case scenario might see players missing 2 or 3 pre-season games (noting that those games are ostensibly part of an official competition)
 
Sloth said:
They don't have to prove it. They just have to be comfortably satisfied that it happened.
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well, I think people on this board downplay what "comfortable satisfaction" means
and in any event, it might be possible to be comfortably satisfied that TB4 may have made it to the club (yet to be proven)
but have insufficient evidence to demonstrate that each and everyone one of the 34 players were administered with TB4
each time a player presents before the tribunal, ASADA must show evidence of that player specifically having been administered with TB4
 
The GG said:
well, I think people on this board downplay what "comfortable satisfaction" means
and in any event, it might be possible to be comfortably satisfied that TB4 may have made it to the club (yet to be proven)
but have insufficient evidence to demonstrate that each and everyone one of the 34 players were administered with TB4
each time a player presents before the tribunal, ASADA must show evidence of that player specifically having been administered with TB4
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Demonstrating intent to take TB4, including giving consent to someone to inject you with it, would also be a viable presentation as we understand Antidoping rules.
 
Hinkley Power said:
it didn't seem to bother the Warren commission and the magic quantum bullet which supposedly.killed JFK...

I may wait until the final sanctioning is handed out. The fix was always in from day 1.

We cant handle this sort of naked truth in this country. That we are drug cheating gold medalists
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No no no that's not true we are Australians only the East Germans Chinese and Bulgarians are drug cheating gold medalists.
 
Baltimore Jack said:
Nope, it like putting up a sign which says "by entering our store you agree to no refunds"
It doesn't override the law

Essendon cannot "injure" players whether physically or psychologically and then say, "we can do it because they signed a waiver". A person or organisation cannot sign away a statutory responsibility (common law might be different). There are so many steps and variables that need to take place to get even close to that being an out for them it would never realistically be considered.
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You are right - however when it comes to getting damages the consent forms will be used to reduce the scale of any costs, and I suspect that in this case the reduction would be substantial as the druggies lawyers would claim the players should have known what they were doing.
Just to be clear, I think we agree.
 
IanW said:
It really is amazing how gullible people are.

It's like they imagine things like paperwork, SMS records, phone records and emails dont exist.

Go back to a public document - the Statement of Charges.

Look at the references to Dank-Alavi emails.

It's almost like someone has access to the backups of where emails going to or from EFC were stored.
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Do you think it's relaed to a pesky police investigation?
 
The_Wookie said:
Demonstrating intent to take TB4, including giving consent to someone to inject you with it, would also be a viable presentation as we understand Antidoping rules.
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I can recall we both discussed the wording of the first SCN, which was for "use" of TB4 at some point over a 10 month period
granted, I don't know how the current SCNs are worded, but presumably, whatever they state ends up being the case ASADA must make to the tribunal
 
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