Strategy Backline - (Rebounding vs Shut Down Ability)

[PTpie]

Wait a minute. The current backline is currently poor. So do you want a thread about how good it is or the truth?

The truth according to you?

Who do you rate in the current squad? You've bagged the forwards, mids and backline in various threads. You don't think our kids are the equal of most sides and you despise the coach and most of his assistants. What's left?

If people disagree you post continually about how wrong they are until they stop posting.

I respect that you have an opinion but you don't have to jam it down my throat and certainly shouldn't dismiss another's out of hand because it isn't the same as yours.

You've been on BF quite some time and have some good insights into the club and footy in general but the constant negative derailment of a thread because you think differently is tiresome.

I don't mean to be rude and maybe this should have been a pm but I can assure it will be the last time I respond.

 

[THATSGOLD]

The truth according to you?

Who do you rate in the current squad? You've bagged the forwards, mids and backline in various threads. You don't think our kids are the equal of most sides and you despise the coach and most of his assistants. What's left?

If people disagree you post continually about how wrong they are until they stop posting.

I respect that you have an opinion but you don't have to jam it down my throat and certainly shouldn't dismiss another's out of hand because it isn't the same as yours.

You've been on BF quite some time and have some good insights into the club and footy in general but the constant negative derailment of a thread because you think differently is tiresome.

I don't mean to be rude and maybe this should have been a pm but I can assure it will be the last time I respond.

Our current team belong where they finished. You can pump them up all you like but there are 11 better sides than us and I see us going further back in 15. That's without being positive about what's coming through with youth. The backline is weak. I haven't rated it since Buckley took Reid out of it. We don't have an A grader or even a B grader in there anymore.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

I'd take Leon over crywoldt any day.
Praising stkilda players whilst bagging magpie legends Is what's rubbish, like I said try the Saint board sounds like you belong there.

Leon Davis is hardly a Magpie legend. A good player in his own right, though.

I'll stick to rating players on merit, rather than the colours that they wear, thanks.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

Leon Davis is hardly a Magpie legend. A good player in his own right, though.

I'll stick to rating players on merit, rather than the colours that they wear, thanks.

Yes he is a legend. In a pretty exclusive club of dual AA players above many other magpie legends,
Happy for you to dote over crywoldt, I'll support the magpie legends.

 

[jmac70]

Wish he meant it.

?

 

[DopeMaster]

An overwhelming majority of posters seem to think that only 2 of Frost, Keeffe and Brown can fit into the backline. I tend to disagree with this in principal. In 2010/11 we had Brown, Reid and Maxwell, and I tend to think that Frost can develop into a Maxwell type role with Keeffe and Brown holding down the KP positions.

Frost already has great closing speed, is menacing physically and a brilliant fist. Yes he has disposal weaknesses, but so did Maxwell, and his marking will need to improve, but his breakaway pace seems to trump what Maxwell brought to the table. If he can learn to use this pace with more frequency rebounding out of the backline it can truly become a weapon. He will need to work on his reading of the play as well, but I don't think it's inconceivable that he can develop into this type of player, and even excel in areas that Maxwell once struggled in. I don't recall Maxy setting the world on fire as a 3rd tall at the age of 23 (correct me if i'm wrong).

Keeffe becomes the equivalent of Reid (although a downgrade), but has an accurate and long kick, is extremely agile for his size, and should improve his one-on-one positioning and bodywork.

Brown is Brown, a reliable and often under-appreciated KP back, and takes big-bodied forwards. If I remember correctly he was improving his rebound abilities before the current run of injuries set in after being challenged by the club to do so, hopefully he continues to work on this.

All in all I think we have a lot to work with. People sometimes use Keeffe and Frosts ages to pot them assuming they should be fully developed and dominant by now, but a cursory glance at the amount of games they've played immediately blows this out of the water, they will improve a lot from here and hopefully sufficiently to be key members of a very strong backline.

So do you think the 3 can co-exist down the track? Why and why not?

 

[jmac70]

An overwhelming majority of posters seem to think that only 2 of Frost, Keeffe and Brown can fit into the backline. I tend to disagree with this in principal. In 2010/11 we had Brown, Reid and Maxwell, and I tend to think that Frost can develop into a Maxwell type role with Keeffe and Brown holding down the KP positions.

Frost already has great closing speed, is menacing physically and a brilliant fist. Yes he has disposal weaknesses, but so did Maxwell, and his marking will need to improve, but his breakaway pace seems to trump what Maxwell brought to the table. If he can learn to use this pace with more frequency rebounding out of the backline it can truly become a weapon. He will need to work on his reading of the play as well, but I don't think it's inconceivable that he can develop into this type of player, and even excel in areas that Maxwell once struggled in. I don't recall Maxy setting the world on fire as a 3rd tall at the age of 23 (correct me if i'm wrong).

Keeffe becomes the equivalent of Reid (although a downgrade), but has an accurate and long kick, is extremely agile for his size, and should improve his one-on-one positioning and bodywork.

Brown is Brown, a reliable and often under-appreciated KP back, and takes big-bodied forwards. If I remember correctly he was improving his rebound abilities before the current run of injuries set in after being challenged by the club to do so, hopefully he continues to work on this.

All in all I think we have a lot to work with. People sometimes use Keeffe and Frosts ages to pot them assuming they should be fully developed and dominant by now, but a cursory glance at the amount of games they've played immediately blows this out of the water, they will improve a lot from here and hopefully sufficiently to be key members of a very strong backline.

So do you think the 3 can co-exist down the track? Why and why not?

I agree with you and posted something similar earlier in the year. I was assured by various BF sages that Frost and Brown cannot coexist in the same team.

 

[DopeMaster]

I agree with you and posted something similar earlier in the year. I was assured by various BF sages that Frost and Brown cannot coexist in the same team.

It's funny how when something becomes a popular opinion anything to the contrary is considered ill-informed. I was re-watching a few games from early in the season and Frost had a few electric runs from out of the back-line, with genuine line-breaking pace. It shows he is capable, and I can only assume that he was instructed to take on a much more negating role after Brown went down. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir (assuming you have a similar perspective on how they fit in together down back).

 

[jmac70]

It's funny how when something becomes a popular opinion anything to the contrary is considered ill-informed. I was re-watching a few games from early in the season and Frost had a few electric runs from out of the back-line, with genuine line-breaking pace. It shows he is capable, and I can only assume that he was instructed to take on a much more negating role after Brown went down. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir (assuming you have a similar perspective on how they fit in together down back).

I see Frost as having good potential to become a third man up defender with his closing speed. He certainly needs to work on his kicking but there is no reason why all three of the defenders you mentioned cannot become an effective combination.

 

[DopeMaster]

I see Frost as having good potential to become a third man up defender with his closing speed. He certainly needs to work on his kicking but there is no reason why all three of the defenders you mentioned cannot become an effective combination.

Certainly seems to have a lot of the tools required, if he brings his kicking up to a slightly above average standard he really seems a perfect candidate. Also would bring some much needed mongrel to the role with his bone shattering tackles and general hardness at the contest.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I see Frost as having good potential to become a third man up defender with his closing speed. He certainly needs to work on his kicking but there is no reason why all three of the defenders you mentioned cannot become an effective combination.

No one ever manned up Nick Maxwell in defence. He was allowed to bascially do what he wanted and that's what made us a great defensive unit under Malthouse. Not sure Buckley will search for a player to use in that way but I hope he does. Brown would be my choice to cover that role for immediate impact in 2015.

 

[jmac70]

No one ever manned up Nick Maxwell in defence. He was allowed to bascially do what he wanted and that's what made us a great defensive unit under Malthouse. Not sure Buckley will search for a player to use in that way but I hope he does. Brown would be my choice to cover that role for immediate impact in 2015.

I don't think there is any doubt that Bucks will play a lose man in defence. Personally I see Frost as more suited to this role with Brown taking the big forwards.

 

[mike123]

An overwhelming majority of posters seem to think that only 2 of Frost, Keeffe and Brown can fit into the backline. I tend to disagree with this in principal. In 2010/11 we had Brown, Reid and Maxwell, and I tend to think that Frost can develop into a Maxwell type role with Keeffe and Brown holding down the KP positions.

Frost already has great closing speed, is menacing physically and a brilliant fist. Yes he has disposal weaknesses, but so did Maxwell, and his marking will need to improve, but his breakaway pace seems to trump what Maxwell brought to the table. If he can learn to use this pace with more frequency rebounding out of the backline it can truly become a weapon. He will need to work on his reading of the play as well, but I don't think it's inconceivable that he can develop into this type of player, and even excel in areas that Maxwell once struggled in. I don't recall Maxy setting the world on fire as a 3rd tall at the age of 23 (correct me if i'm wrong).

Keeffe becomes the equivalent of Reid (although a downgrade), but has an accurate and long kick, is extremely agile for his size, and should improve his one-on-one positioning and bodywork.

Brown is Brown, a reliable and often under-appreciated KP back, and takes big-bodied forwards. If I remember correctly he was improving his rebound abilities before the current run of injuries set in after being challenged by the club to do so, hopefully he continues to work on this.

All in all I think we have a lot to work with. People sometimes use Keeffe and Frosts ages to pot them assuming they should be fully developed and dominant by now, but a cursory glance at the amount of games they've played immediately blows this out of the water, they will improve a lot from here and hopefully sufficiently to be key members of a very strong backline.

So do you think the 3 can co-exist down the track? Why and why not?

Frost's doesn't read the ball in the air as well as Maxwell and is a very poor intercept mark. Maxwell also knew when to come off his opponent and knew when to spoil or mark. I don't think Frost has the play reading ability of Maxwell. Maxwell wasn't a good kick but was a much better decision make than Frost. I think Frost can play as a bigger Toovey but not as the Maxwell type.

 

[DopeMaster]

Frost's doesn't read the ball in the air as well as Maxwell and is a very poor intercept mark. Maxwell also knew when to come off his opponent and knew when to spoil or mark. I don't think Frost has the play reading ability of Maxwell. Maxwell wasn't a good kick but was a much better decision make than Frost. I think Frost can play as a bigger Toovey but not as the Maxwell type.

If I remember correctly Maxwell wasn't too flash in those categories after playing 23 games either. As mentioned in the original post, I think these are certainly limitations to Frost's game right now, but see no reason why they can't be improved to a high standard as he pushes towards the 100 game mark. He also has some positive traits that eclipse Maxwell's already. I don't think he will become a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous, but he has some pretty intriguing attributes that could see him play the 3rd man up role to a high standard in my opinion.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I don't think there is any doubt that Bucks will play a lose man in defence. Personally I see Frost as more suited to this role with Brown taking the big forwards.

Ideally we buy Frawley to play full back and Brown to play the Maxwell role. I'm unsure on Brown a new lease of life could be what he needs and could've cherised the role. He has pace but seems to get beaten on leads. Not sure if the ACL made him lose a yard a pace. Usually the case for all ACL sufferers.

 

[loki04]

Yes he is a legend. In a pretty exclusive club of dual AA players above many other magpie legends,
Happy for you to dote over crywoldt, I'll support the magpie legends.

I'd agree he is a pie champ but prob not an AFL one.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

I'd agree he is a pie champ but prob not an AFL one.

I think he's both. Easily.

 

[loki04]

I think he's both. Easily.

I guess it depends on what you define as an AFL champion.
For mine there is only a few at each club and Leon although a pie champ not sure the wider AFL would see him in the same light.
I am a big fan of Leons so it isn't a slight on him.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

I don't think there is any doubt that Bucks will play a lose man in defence. Personally I see Frost as more suited to this role with Brown taking the big forwards.

I'm hoping that our playing a loose man in defence last year was more Rodney Eade's idea than Nathan Buckley and we won't be doing that again. We have Langford in the rebounding role and Frost is better suited as a shutdown man. Brown or Keeffe could be used as swing men between defence and attack, but Keeffe in particular needs to develop his game further.

 

[noideaatall]

If I remember correctly Maxwell wasn't too flash in those categories after playing 23 games either. As mentioned in the original post, I think these are certainly limitations to Frost's game right now, but see no reason why they can't be improved to a high standard as he pushes towards the 100 game mark. He also has some positive traits that eclipse Maxwell's already. I don't think he will become a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous, but he has some pretty intriguing attributes that could see him play the 3rd man up role to a high standard in my opinion.

My memory of Maxwell's earlier games could not be more different. What stood out is his willingness to move off his opponent to spoil or intercept, based on his ability to read the play. That was his talent that marked him for future games and indicated his willingness to stand up and take a leadership role. Whilst Maxwell's disposal wasn't exceptional, he certainly didn't look like a deer in the headlights with the ball in his hands as Frost does.

 

[mike123]

I'm hoping that our playing a loose man in defence last year was more Rodney Eade's idea than Nathan Buckley and we won't be doing that again. We have Langford in the rebounding role and Frost is better suited as a shutdown man. Brown or Keeffe could be used as swing men between defence and attack, but Keeffe in particular needs to develop his game further.

You mean Langdon right? Anyways I think an one of Langdon, Oxley or Scharenberg when fit can play the loose man in defence as they are great intercept marks and rebounders.

 

[Markfs]

No one ever manned up Nick Maxwell in defence. He was allowed to bascially do what he wanted and that's what made us a great defensive unit under Malthouse. Not sure Buckley will search for a player to use in that way but I hope he does. Brown would be my choice to cover that role for immediate impact in 2015.

...
you must be kidding ..... i thought you were a realist. Now you're talking about nathan brown doing the loose man in defence thing? nah..... you must have an angle here. brownie is a good solid citizen when he actually gets on the park but he is there to defend on big forwards. I know that you have an angle with this. Looking forward to it..

 

[THATSGOLD]

I don't think there is any doubt that Bucks will play a lose man in defence. Personally I see Frost as more suited to this role with Brown taking the big forwards.

I think a more experience player needs to play the Maxwell role. Jimmy Bartel became the new Maxwell in the past two seasons.

 

[mike123]

Then he got moved back to the forward line because he was too slow and sometimes a liability.

 

[Horaceg]

What defenders should be in our backline to get the best balance of run and carry, foot skills and defensive ability?


At the moment we have a high number of defensive defenders in: Nathan Brown, Jack Frost, Tyson Goldsack, Alan Toovey, Marley Williams, Ben Sinclair Jackson Ramsay and Darcy Moore (If he plays down there)

Defenders with footskills we have: Ben Reid (If he plays down there), Lachlan Keeffe, Tom Langdon, Adam Oxley, Tony Armstrong, Alex Fasolo (If he plays down there) Mathew Scharenberg(when fit)

And defenders that can run the ball out of the backline: Paul Seedsman, Clinton Young, Travis Varcoe, Tim Broomhead (Pretty much everyone here plays a different position)



My Ideal back line that would have both footskills rebound ability and defensive ability would be:

B: Tom Langdon ~ Nathan Brown ~ Marley Williams
HB: Adam Oxley ~ Lachlan Keeffe ~ Paul Seedsman/Clinton Young

I/C: Alan Toovey/Jack Frost/Tyson Goldsack


The third tall defender role gets swapped around from Langdon, Oxley and the person on the bench depending on the other teams forward line.

Seedsman and Young rotate from half back and the wing.

And one of Frost, Goldsack or Toovey gets selected depending on the other teams forward line.

I have Oxley in because I have faith in him if he has a good pre season that he can have an impact next year.

When Scharenberg come's back he'll take the bench spot.

Good to see some faith in Ox, he just needs a good run at it IMHO