Strategy Backline - (Rebounding vs Shut Down Ability)

[Knightmare]

I'll cop flak but i think we missed Sinclair a fair bit, the bloke towards the end of 2013 seemed to click, he was running the ball and doing it well.

We really, really missed that offensive running flair this year, Sinclair being injured, Seedsman missing half a year with a dodgy hip and Williams after his court case never quite got it together, Young looked quite good in parts but perhaps missing 2013 stuffed him around, couldn't pull a full season together. Langdon and Frost essentially being in their first years you couldn't expect them to take the game on, although Frost has some good offensive legs on him when he decides to use them.

I'd love to see the guys mentioned above fit and firing to see what they can do, those are some blokes with serious pace and line breaking ability, along with us introducing some pace through our midfield (Freeman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Crisp, Elliot, Varcoe and perhaps pick 5) we have the making of an exciting fast moving rebounding team, i personally think that's where we're moving towards and i think will be one of our major strengths in the coming years.

That's without mentioning Keeffe, Marsh, Toovey and Goldsack who all have above average pace for their heights (Marsh a freak in particular)

Footskills in the back half are certainly important, but until Shazza, Ox and Langdon get on the field and develop it's something we'll lack, but pace and athleticism certainly isn't.

Looking at Port they use their gut running and pace to force turnovers (2nd for tackles and 3rd for one percenters) before rebounding the ball in an unstoppable wave, their team effective disposal percentage is 71.2, the third worst in the comp (we're the second worst on 70.6) and they're first for clangers, but their running rebound style football (The most bounces in the league averaging 15.5 per game) covers that up, as we build our fitness base we'll build a similar style that will hopefully become much more effective, getting a full preseason out of most of our boys this preseason is the first promising step towards that.

It's a good post Presti and while I'm not personally a Sinclair advocate given your sound reasoning I would not come down so hard on you. And my bet to be perfectly honest with you is the club probably have a pretty similar perspective and liking towards his game in that role.

The other thing with Port Adelaide and I don't even know if these stats are publicly available anymore. But in addition to Port Adelaide's run from the back half they also relatively seem a long kicking team from the back half and will go the low % kicks and specifically a high proportion of kicks down the corridor which will have the effect of reducing their disposal percentage from the back half while making them a particularly damaging side which in combination with their running style really makes them the premier rebounding team in the competition. Or at least that is my interpretation based on what I've seen without consulting the stats.

Collingwood conversely. We're a consistently short kicking team and I'm sure if someone has stats on this one it will back me up. As a short kicking team while we do have some running types down back and Seedsman, Williams and Sinclair are some examples of this and running is never a bad thing. Just being a low disposal efficiency team and being a short kicking team. When you're both of those things in combination. That's when you're in trouble and why we have relatively from a rebounding perspective in recent years been so unsuccessful relatively to say a Port Adelaide.

But your conclusion is definitely the right one in the sense that it will take time for us to develop in the back half those kickers with Scharenberg not yet available for selection and a few other pieces still requiring more time and perhaps one further high level piece down back still required to change the dynamic.

A few notes on some of the players you mention. On Scharenberg and I don't know how much SANFL or junior footy you watch. Scharenberg can do damage, has penetration and has good vision but can also at times have some shanks and just poorly placed kicks mixed in there also. Langdon also while he will improve on this year also has had his inconsistencies by foot even though at other times he has also shown good vision, finding some good targets up the field.

Also regarding Toovey, Goldsack and Marsh who you speak about as quick for their heights. You are spot on. They are all exceptionally quick for their heights. The issue is they're not guys who take on the game. Marsh as a junior when he played forward took on the game better than just about anyone at that level, but since moving back he has turning into a pure negating key defender and seems to have lost that attacking flair to his game, hopefully he can integrate that into his game down back to compliment his solid shutdown ability but at this stage in that role anyway it's more we're hoping he adds that rather than him having that balance at this point. Toovey has the closing speed but again he is not someone who uses that pace offensively with frequency. Then Goldsack while he has improved as an offensive runner is not someone who finds all that much of it down back to provide that run.
And with the nature of these types. Height and height with speed by position down back is terrific and a real asset in the back half. It's just we also need that third cog being that rebounding ability - both intercept marking which we need more of but then also footskills.

It's an interesting discussion regarding the back half. They're all so young and as a result it is that really interesting part of the ground to speculate about. Historically I find it's those more mature back halves who have played together for numerous years that are the more successful ones, so the vision will be to for whatever we view our long term core back group to pump as many games into them as possible as quickly as we can. Though I'd have a similar perspective over the rest of the ground with some good young talent we really need to get games into, to quickly fast-track them and hopefully develop a good young list again.

 

[HFF]

We have one of the worst if not the worst back six's in the comp for shutdown and skill/rebound.

Every combination mentioned thus far is rubbish.

Brown is of senior quality as the FB but the rest are not up to standard. Toovey is not the same player he once was and his kicking is nowhere near good enough to be of park standard let alone league standard. He has plenty of friend here too with Williams and Frost.

Sinclair I can live with because I've seen improvement in his kicking and decision making.

Fasolo either plays forward or doesn't play at all because whilst he is quality by foot he can't defend for s**t and to be fair to him is being turned into something he ain't which could ultimately cost him a career if this keeps up.

Keeffe whilst a decent kick is just incredibly slow and soft.

We have major problems in defence.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

I'll cop flak but i think we missed Sinclair a fair bit, the bloke towards the end of 2013 seemed to click, he was running the ball and doing it well.

We really, really missed that offensive running flair this year, Sinclair being injured, Seedsman missing half a year with a dodgy hip and Williams after his court case never quite got it together, Young looked quite good in parts but perhaps missing 2013 stuffed him around, couldn't pull a full season together. Langdon and Frost essentially being in their first years you couldn't expect them to take the game on, although Frost has some good offensive legs on him when he decides to use them.

I'd love to see the guys mentioned above fit and firing to see what they can do, those are some blokes with serious pace and line breaking ability, along with us introducing some pace through our midfield (Freeman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Crisp, Elliot, Varcoe and perhaps pick 5) we have the making of an exciting fast moving rebounding team, i personally think that's where we're moving towards and i think will be one of our major strengths in the coming years.

That's without mentioning Keeffe, Marsh, Toovey and Goldsack who all have above average pace for their heights (Marsh a freak in particular)

Footskills in the back half are certainly important, but until Shazza, Ox and Langdon get on the field and develop it's something we'll lack, but pace and athleticism certainly isn't.

Looking at Port they use their gut running and pace to force turnovers (2nd for tackles and 3rd for one percenters) before rebounding the ball in an unstoppable wave, their team effective disposal percentage is 71.2, the third worst in the comp (we're the second worst on 70.6) and they're first for clangers, but their running rebound style football (The most bounces in the league averaging 15.5 per game) covers that up, as we build our fitness base we'll build a similar style that will hopefully become much more effective, getting a full preseason out of most of our boys this preseason is the first promising step towards that.

Sinclair is not the answer. He's unko and we are moving on from that, building a skilled, composed, intelligent, pacy, strong and fit team. Sinclair had a woeful beginning when there were few depth options to replace him, he showed some improvement in a couple of games playing off the back flank, but his time is over really. Should have been delisted if you ask me. I don't think we will see him in the senior squad again, way too much depth now and let's prey our injury list doesn't get big enough again to have to rely on the lower level depth players.

 

[ClaytonM]

When I look at 2010 I see a backline that I want to mould the next team on.

We need to find another Prestigiacomo. He was the best full back you could ask for.

Nathan Brown hasn't lived up to the hype since the Riewoldt job in the GF.

Toovey is older and since the ACL battled. Lost the pace that made him dangerous.

Keeffe i don't feel is good enough to make us a top 4 team.

Reid must go and be that All Australian CHB that made us a premiership defence. He needs to be the Captain of the defense without Nick Maxwell down there anymore he is the man to get the troops in the right position near and around him.

The backline for me is the most important part of the whole team. You don't put your junk like Sinclair Keeffe Fasolo down there and watch the ball sail over their heads time and time again. Buckleys biggest mistake in his coaching is just that. He's failed to get the defence right since taking over. Taking Ried out of there was his biggest flaw. We are nearly last on the ladder for lack of skill in defence.
Buckley needs to admit he's ****** up and get a malthouse type defence again at Collingwood.

You are wrong with your facts AGAIN.

To claim Buckley has got it wrong in terms of Reid is just wrong. In 2013 Reid played in defence and moved him forward occasionally with great effect. Great coaching by Buckley.

In 2014 Reid basically missed the whole season. While no doubt Reid would have played more time up forward, we have no idea how Buckley would have responded during the year, particularly with Maxwell and Brown going down. He may have moved him back.

The fact is Buckley did not undermine our backline by playing Reid forward. Injuries to Brown, Maxwell and Reid undermined it. Get your facts right and stop the Buckley/Malthouse bashing. That is now ancient history.

 

[loki04]

My "ideal" back 6 would have Reid back as a 3rd in floating type but unfortunately we need him up forward due to a lack of recruiting foresight in having 0 developing tall's bar the almost delisted Gault. Kept trying to plug holes with ageing (Lynch) or NQR types (White HFF) and relied to heavily on Cloke.

FB. Toovey, Brown, Sinclair/Williams*
HB. Scharenberg, *Keeffe/Frost, Langdon
Floater. Reid as 7th defender floating.

*Keeffe and Frost would be form and match up based depending on team. Reid would float and be our 3rd in and exit kick.

This obviously means we play one short further up the ground.

Williams is looking to get into the midfield going off reports from CWFC web site and I think they will use him as our run with player while de-caffinated recovers.

Sinkers provides some good run and drive in defense also locks down on speedy nippy types.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Sinclair wouldn't get a game in a Hawthorn defence. He makes us a weak side. Same goes for Keeffe. We will never get near the Hawks with guys like Sinclair Keeffe Fasolo in defence.

 

[Baird]

Baffles me how people can put Keeffe in their side ahead of Brown.

 

[mike123]

Sinclair wouldn't get a game in a Hawthorn defence. He makes us a weak side. Same goes for Keeffe. We will never get near the Hawks with guys like Sinclair Keeffe Fasolo in defence.

No one in our backline would get a game in Hawthorn's back six.

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

In terms of our 'best' back half Frost/Brown are very much interchangeable as I don't see one being outright better than the other, they just need to be picked based on their strengths that match well against the opposition.

Disagree, Brown is too slow.

 

[mike123]

Was Presti any quicker?

 

[THATSGOLD]

No one in our backline would get a game in Hawthorn's back six.

Ben Reid would but we don't even play him there. That's how stupid our coach is.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Was Presti any quicker?

Prestigiacomos closing speed to get a late punch in on the lead was amazing.

 

[mike123]

Ben Reid would but we don't even play him there. That's how stupid our coach is.

Over who?

Gibson? He can play both tall and small and is the best third man up in the competion.

Frawley? Frawley is also an AA but mainly a shut down defender which Reid isn't.

Lake? Lake is also an AA and both are good intercept marks, this is the player Reid would have the best chance at overtaking but Lake has added versitilyty where he can intercept but also play full back.

Reid would be more likely used as a forward in Hawthorns team.

 

[jmac70]

Ben Reid would but we don't even play him there. That's how stupid our coach is.

Could you please remind us how many games Reid played in the forward line last year?

 

[ClaytonM]

Ben Reid would but we don't even play him there. That's how stupid our coach is.

I know who the stupid one is. Reid did not play this year you moron.

Criticising him for what you think he was going to do is just stupid. Yes he planned to play him forward, but that plan may have changed with injuries to Brown and Maxwell.

Our backline held up real well for the first half of the year until injuries to Maxwell and Brown. Whether Buckley would have played Reid back given those injuries we will never know.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Frost is a poor user of the ball. You are right. And that's why I wouldn't want him in the same back half with Brown (not a rebounder) or two of Williams (another poor ball user) or Toovey (not a rebounder). It would be the same story with Sinclair who is another who I certainly wouldn't want running around in that same back half as a further poor ball user.

Brown is the slightly stronger but Frost I don't have a major issue with from a strength or 1v1 perspective. I feel he is in that same conversation as Brown in that regard but then better v the more athletic and certainly much better v the more freakish and more agile types.

Slightly stronger? Brown is a * load stronger. Much better player.

Frost is slightly more suited to agile forwards, and good depth, but that's it.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

That's right, for one riewoldt is a big game choker, he's cracks under pressure and brown got a lot of credit for shutting him down when in truth anyone could have kept him quiet.
Since then he's done two acls and his shoulder again I can't really see him making that much of an impact again.

I don't want scharenberg in the back line, I'd like to see him developed as a fwd mid. He's got class and composure and natural skill, can apply that anywhere on the ground, we need that up forward more than anywhere else at the moment.

I guess you also didn't rate Brown's job on Hawkins in the 2010 prelim either then?

Riewoldt was the best KPF on the ground in the 2009 Grand Final, single handedly got the Saints over the line against the Dogsin the prelim and is actually a very good finals player. Kicked five against us in the 2008 Semi.

If Riewokdt is a big game choker than I'm sure you'd have no time for the spudtacular efforts of Leon Davis through his career. Two decent finals and the rest grossly inadequate.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

I guess you also didn't rate Brown's job on Hawkins in the 2010 prelim either then?

Riewoldt was the best KPF on the ground in the 2009 Grand Final, single handedly got the Saints over the line against the Dogsin the prelim and is actually a very good finals player. Kicked five against us in the 2008 Semi.

If Riewokdt is a big game choker than I'm sure you'd have no time for the spudtacular efforts of Leon Davis through his career. Two decent finals and the rest grossly inadequate.

Try the st kinda board.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Try the st kinda board.

Try not posting complete and utter rubbish.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

Try not posting complete and utter rubbish.

I'd take Leon over crywoldt any day.
Praising stkilda players whilst bagging magpie legends Is what's rubbish, like I said try the Saint board sounds like you belong there.

 

[Prestige Presti]

It's a good post Presti and while I'm not personally a Sinclair advocate given your sound reasoning I would not come down so hard on you. And my bet to be perfectly honest with you is the club probably have a pretty similar perspective and liking towards his game in that role.

The other thing with Port Adelaide and I don't even know if these stats are publicly available anymore. But in addition to Port Adelaide's run from the back half they also relatively seem a long kicking team from the back half and will go the low % kicks and specifically a high proportion of kicks down the corridor which will have the effect of reducing their disposal percentage from the back half while making them a particularly damaging side which in combination with their running style really makes them the premier rebounding team in the competition. Or at least that is my interpretation based on what I've seen without consulting the stats.

Collingwood conversely. We're a consistently short kicking team and I'm sure if someone has stats on this one it will back me up. As a short kicking team while we do have some running types down back and Seedsman, Williams and Sinclair are some examples of this and running is never a bad thing. Just being a low disposal efficiency team and being a short kicking team. When you're both of those things in combination. That's when you're in trouble and why we have relatively from a rebounding perspective in recent years been so unsuccessful relatively to say a Port Adelaide.

But your conclusion is definitely the right one in the sense that it will take time for us to develop in the back half those kickers with Scharenberg not yet available for selection and a few other pieces still requiring more time and perhaps one further high level piece down back still required to change the dynamic.

A few notes on some of the players you mention. On Scharenberg and I don't know how much SANFL or junior footy you watch. Scharenberg can do damage, has penetration and has good vision but can also at times have some shanks and just poorly placed kicks mixed in there also. Langdon also while he will improve on this year also has had his inconsistencies by foot even though at other times he has also shown good vision, finding some good targets up the field.

Also regarding Toovey, Goldsack and Marsh who you speak about as quick for their heights. You are spot on. They are all exceptionally quick for their heights. The issue is they're not guys who take on the game. Marsh as a junior when he played forward took on the game better than just about anyone at that level, but since moving back he has turning into a pure negating key defender and seems to have lost that attacking flair to his game, hopefully he can integrate that into his game down back to compliment his solid shutdown ability but at this stage in that role anyway it's more we're hoping he adds that rather than him having that balance at this point. Toovey has the closing speed but again he is not someone who uses that pace offensively with frequency. Then Goldsack while he has improved as an offensive runner is not someone who finds all that much of it down back to provide that run.
And with the nature of these types. Height and height with speed by position down back is terrific and a real asset in the back half. It's just we also need that third cog being that rebounding ability - both intercept marking which we need more of but then also footskills.

It's an interesting discussion regarding the back half. They're all so young and as a result it is that really interesting part of the ground to speculate about. Historically I find it's those more mature back halves who have played together for numerous years that are the more successful ones, so the vision will be to for whatever we view our long term core back group to pump as many games into them as possible as quickly as we can. Though I'd have a similar perspective over the rest of the ground with some good young talent we really need to get games into, to quickly fast-track them and hopefully develop a good young list again.

Haha i'd be stumped if there were many other advocates for Sinclair on this forum, perhaps my wording indicated I viewed him to be the answer to all our problems, but that certainly isn't the case, rather he is an important b-grade piece of a grander problem, at the recent members Q and A Hine earmarked Sinclair as a 150+ game player, whether that was just a fib to get some confidence in the lad, who knows, but i wouldn't be surprised if there is more than meets the eye with Sinks.

The point I was trying to get across is that as a team, we should be working to our strengths, right now those appear to be pace and athleticism and for various reasons (season long injury list which in turn, causes fatigue and obviously lack of personnel) we have failed to utilize those, which as a result,we looked incredibly one dimensional coming out of defense, as you mentioned exposing our lack of composure and footskills resulting in panicky short kicks.

In my opinion it's predictability that's holding us back, once opposition teams earmarked Young and Harry as our sole run and carry options out of defense, stopping our run became a lot more predictable, that's where i believe missing the likes of Seedsman, Sinclair and Williams really hurt us, as you mentioned i only see Marsh being able to present some sort of rebound as a KPD long term, perhaps in the mold of Hurley.

When you try to work with something that isn't a strength, you end up with Richmond, they tinkered with a Hawthorn possession heavy style gameplan and they paid the price for it, when they went back to utilizing their strength as a breakaway running team they looked much more dangerous.

During last preseason we attempted a handball heavy game plan, perhaps foreshadowing Buckley was less than confident in our kicking ability, due to the results of those preseason games we went back to a kicking style game plan but i would certainly be open to a variation of that gameplan that puts less emphasis on our lack of kicking skills and more on hand balling and running the ball, as stated fitness is a key component of said gameplan, but considering how many players we have currently compared to the beginning of last preseason (only 20-22 players available at this stage last year) I wouldn't be surprised if we could execute that gameplan much more efficiently this preseason.

As you mentioned Shazza and Langdon have their deficiencies but long term i think they should be ironed out, i certainly see one of them being introduced into the midfield, the Ox is an interesting one who i'd love to hear your thoughts about, i know you currently rate him one of the weakest members on our list, but do you see him becoming an important cog long term? quite a few on here seem to, i'm uncertain myself, but he has displayed a solid reading of the ball, and whilst footskills are important to have in a backline, I almost rate intercept marking higher, especially an intercept marker with killer footskills (obviously), so if he could work on those traits he possesses, he could become a weapon.

The last point you make is fascinating, not sure who stated it, think it was Darcy Moore recently, but he claimed the back six was a team within a team and building chemistry was vital, Geelong epitomized this with their back six, I can see vague similarities between a young Taylor, Lonergan and Mackie and our Frost, Keeffe and Langdon, its a vague comparison but given time i believe they could form a dangerous unit, obviously as you mentioned trying to balance a stable defense whilst introducing some young guns will become an issue over the next few seasons.



Always love and appreciate the depth and effort you put into your responses mate, keep up the awesome work.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Could you please remind us how many games Reid played in the forward line last year?

2013 he would've been All Australian CHB again had he left him there. He won't win another All Australian. He certainly won't win one next to Cloke. In order to win one he needs to be the leader of our backline like Maxwell was.

 

[PTpie]

Really liking the discussion between Knightmare and Presti so far. Some great points and insight into the developing backline we currently have.

My stance would be based solely on previous experience of the players against expected opposition. Our backline group needs to play together regularly to develop trust and a comprehensive understanding of each others game. This spreads beyond the 6/7 that are on the field on match day and more too the entire AFL/VFL defensive group.

After Maxwell was injured this year we lost shape, trust, confidence, belief and seemed to capitulate when things got tough during games. For a bloke that was so maligned it quickly became apparent how much the team relied on Maxy and what his actual value was. Coming to the point here - guys like Maxy don't just appear, we literally have no one as capable in the back half as he was at managing, organising and reading the game at this stage. Therefore we need to adjust our defensive style/game plan.

I think 3 mainstays - Brown, Keefe and Langdon. These guys provide great 1 on 1 and experience (Brown), Good ball movement and a penetrating kick (Keefe) and an excellent intercept player who can rebound (Langdon).

What they lack is run and carry and shutdown. We have quite a few guys able to do these jobs and I think its a game by game prospect. I'd imagine Toovey will play pretty much every game he is available. Williams and Seedsman are the two developing prospects that offer run and carry with shut down (Williams) and an 80 metre player in Seedsman who can turn defense into attack with 1 kick so easily when he is on.

Thats my grouping but throw in Young (though I don't rate him defensively), Sinclair (seems a bit like a less talented Leon Davis), Fasolo (please play him as a forward), Goldsack (love the guy but as required down back) and the other kids coming through - Scharenberg, Ramsay and Oxley. These are the gap fillers for injury or specific grounds (Young and Seedsman @ Pattersons!) and that sort of thing.

 

[mike123]

2013 he would've been All Australian CHB again had he left him there. He won't win another All Australian. He certainly won't win one next to Cloke. In order to win one he needs to be the leader of our backline like Maxwell was.

Reid was hardly in All Australian form down back, if he played forward all year he would have had a chance at AA.

 

[sr36]

In terms of our 'best' back half Frost/Brown are very much interchangeable as I don't see one being outright better than the other, they just need to be picked based on their strengths that match well against the opposition.

I agree with that in theory. In an ideal world, we'd play Brown against teams like Geelong, whose most dangerous tall forward is a gorilla and Frost against the athletic guys like Cameron and Franklin. But the problem is that players need to feel confident and settled and dropping them for match ups doesn't achieve that. It just undermines their confidence. I'd prefer Frost, as I think he is more versatile and is better on the gorillas than Brown is on the athletes.