VFL competition is a mess

[MortlockWatcher]

Why would Channel 9 want to cover Reserve Grade football?

 

[Chicken Parma]

Why would Channel 9 want to cover Reserve Grade football?

As I alluded to in my earlier post, ever since they lost the AFL rights, they've been desperate to insert footy-related content into every single show (AFL content being the top story on both Today and the 6pm news whenever there's a slow news day, ex-players on Getaway and Postcards, WAGs presenting the weather etc)

If Nine were to obtain the VFL rights, they could see it as a certain type of access to AFL players (not the best ones, but access nonetheless) They could counterprogram their Saturday arvo coverage against Seven's telecasts at the same time (unless there's a Thursday night game that week) and aggressively promote it like they do the Whitten Legends game.

Also, why would Channel 7 want to cover Reserve Grade football?

 

[MortlockWatcher]

what's definitely true is that no-one wants to screen WAFL footy next season at the moment.

The ABC has been burnt and won't come back unless the footy commission makes a humiliating, tail-between-the-legs grovel.
The sponsorship money is apparently not there for Channel 7 to do it
Channel 9 and 10 have no interest in it either

Maybe web streaming is their best option at the moment?

 

[FootyJunkie]

sad about the WAFL

 

[footyfan1978]

I hate the way it is currently.. too many sides, doesn't seem to have a purpose.. is it development of up and coming AFL players or is it a proper football comp.. Too many byes. But the worst part is that I have an interest in Port Melbourne mainly because I live there, but am also a passionate Carlton fan so I never really engage with either the bullants or port Melbourne..

Could easily get the AFL clubs to have there own reserves fixture playing each other twice in an 18 game season.

If you had a stand alone VFL competition, reckon you could get the Brisbane Lions/AFL to pump in some $ to get Fitzroy back playing VFL and I reckon they would get a loyal following from the disenfranchised supporter. I would also scrap the VFL reserves and this would increase the standard at local suburban footy.
Frankston
Willy
Port Melbourne
North Ballarat
Bendigo
Coburg/Preston
Casey
Sandringham
Werribee
Fitzroy

Haha, Coburg and Preston... That would have been fairly interesting , not a particularly huge rivalry in our eyes (the three filthbags Dandy, Sandy and Port had that dubious honour) but I'd imagine there would be a few old, retired warriors that wouldn't wanna stray further down Bell St any more than they should.

Just on that I can't think of a single one of my old Bullants mates that goes to this Northern Blues disaster, especially considering Preston for a long time was effectively a Collingwood sister club owing to the old zonal system. We've all accepted the club we knew it died a long time ago, luckily the Preston Juniors is still going


I still don't understand why they scrapped the VFL/AFL reserves to be honest. Especially in hindsight now that realistically each Vic side will have their own stand alone reserve squad in the next few years (I believe St. Kilda is next year and Carlton is thinking of dropping the Northern moniker and playing out of Princes Park again, if the pub talk around town amounts to anything. But I'm pretty sure a Bluebagger could clarify that here), it just seems to be a ridiculously short sighted decision that has done naught but to destroy a handful of historical, successful and viable clubs.

Good thread by the way, great to see people still caring for the old VFA clubs.

I miss the grand old days of the curtain raiser

Grand final day as a child was one of the best days for football ever.

TAC Cup grand final early, AFL reserves at midday and the AFL Grand final at the same time spot (approximately) it's been for years and years, and years and years.

Solution.

1. Bring back the VFL with 10 AFL aligned clubs
2. Bring back the VFA

Bring back the Reserves

I don't mind the Box Hill/Hawthorn alignment, that would stay in my restructure if I was doing it. Colours and names are important to me, Hawks and Brown and Gold represent the Hawthorn Football club well enough. Hate seeing a player wear totally different jumpers, and a totally different set up the following year, because upstairs didn't think the alliance suited anymore.

There should be two tiers starting in 2015, and they should be allocated on final ladder positions at the end of the home and away season. If it were now it'd be set-up like:

Tier 1 - Box Hill (Hawthorn), Port Melbourne, Sandringham (St.Kilda), Williamstown, Footscray, Werribee (Nth Melb 1), Geelong, Collingwood
Tier 2 - Casey (Melbourne), Northern Blues (Carlton), Richmond, Essendon, North Ballarat (Nth Melb 2), Coburg, Frankston, Bendigo


You'd play against sides three times per season, and then finals and ladder position decides who promotes and who demotes.

Just like the old VFA days.

First issue though is that Sandringham are going it alone in 2016, which bogs it up a bit fixture-wise.

Two eight teams league works, two ten league teams would be better, but perhaps not financially viable for some clubs. However, I don't see how Carlton get anything out of playing at Preston, Melbourne at Casey is just stupid and North having two VFL sides is just as mad.

So really, only Hawthorn/Box Hill seems to be working.

If all the AFL clubs had their own team you'd have
Tier 1 - Hawthorn, St.Kilda, Footscray, North Melbourne, Geelong, Collingwood, Melbourne, Carlton, Richmond, Essendon
Tier 2 - Box Hill, Port Melbourne, Sandringham, Williamstown, Werribee, Casey (Springvale), Northern (Preston), North Ballarat, Coburg, Frankston, Bendigo

10 teams in 1, 11 in Tier 2. And to be honest, Northern would probably fold instantly. Not good, but it'd make 10 in each tier. Perfect.

I'd love to see a reserves comp come in, but would the VFL survive if you took out the Geelongs and Collingwoods and took all the AFL-listed players out of the Box Hills and Sandringhams? Taking about 150 of the best/most promising players (10 teams x about 15 players per team) out of the comp would put a massive dent in the quality of the product, and that's before you even consider where the reserves sides would get top up players from.

Not to mention the aligned clubs do everyone a favour by bumping up the standard of the competition.

Some of the stand alone VFA clubs (Port) and stand alone AFL reserves (Geel) have been strong over the years but it makes more sense to have less teams and a strong comp over all.

Those who have worked in alliances have generally propped up the standard of the opposition for those AFL clubs who went it alone.

16 teams seems way too many for the VFL though. I have severe doubts on the sustainability of Frankston, Bendigo and maybe Coburg.

Having read through all the above my thoughts are as follows:

So it looks like Bendigo are gone from state league level forever and Sandringham going it alone.

This idea of bringing back VFA of late 70's or early 80's is gone. Seriously, most of the VFA clubs as we know it are gone, even if they still exist as a club in some sense in some other league. The power of VFA when they were clubs with some fan base was when VFA footy had the domain of Sunday footy to itself. That went long ago when AFL footy branched out from just being all Saturday games in Melbourne.
To be realistic only Port Melbourne as a stand alone club are clearly strong enough to live on by themselves in a league only one step down from AFL level. Coburg sound like they only exist in name only now and Preston and Carlton alliance, well as a Carlton fan it does nothing for me. I would have a stronger feeling for them if they were either Preston of old or Carlton true reserves side but I don't have same feeling when I see them in red and if I was a long time Preston fan I cannot imagine feeling as passionate when seeing in blue. It sounds like Preston are essentially gone as an own entity club. As someone else said it only seems like Box Hill Hawks works and that is because Box Hill itself was never a VFA power club, so there was not a long standing VFA fan base to start with. Nothing like Port or Sandy. Box Hill had similar colours to Hawks and geographical it works too.

So what do we do ? There really is only Port Melbourne, Williamstown, North Ballarat and maybe Sandringham from VFA that could probably survive in a long term state league but there is not enough old VFA 80's vintage clubs to have a proper VFA as old Sunday domain.
We are better off trying to get something closer to old VFL reserves with curtain raisers to AFL games as the longer term aim. I think 16 clubs is too many and if you include those 4 older VFA clubs as stand alone clubs you could probably create a decent 14 team league. I think it is about the best we can hope for.

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Sandringham
North Ballarat
Box Hill Hawks
Essendon
Footscray
Carlton
St.Kilda
Collingwood
North Melbourne
Geelong
Richmond
Melbourne

I think we have to give up the Casey Scorpions/Springvale/Melbourne thing and also except Coburg and Frankston days are numbered at this level. 16 clubs just has the standard too low.

The league has been a dogs breakfast for a good decade and a half. It needs sorting out for long term.
At AFL level the lack of pre-game entertainment is embarrassing. Surely curtain raisers would make the comp more relevant to more football fans in general?
There have been way to many byes for a number of seasons. As a Carlton fan trying to follow what is happening with our players not in AFL side it is a joke to find byes at times that just mess with the whole flow of season. So frustrating. It is a joke to have 3 or 4 byes during home and away and season not aligned as close to AFL fixturing as possible. 14 teams with 22 rounds and a final 8 would be better way to go. Surely?
Align the fixtures more attuned to AFL match ups. If Footscray are playing St.Kilda at Etithad Stadium have their VFL teams play before hand. Is it really that hard to organize ?

If an AFL Victorian based club is playing interstate, try to have them drawn to play an old VFA club that round. If North are playing Eagles in Perth have their VFL team be playing Sandringham, North Ballarat, Port Melbourne or Willy.

On Grand Final day in AFL have the VFL grand final the curtain raiser and if a stand alone club makes it into grand final there is a sensible allocation of tickets for their supporters to be there.

AFL fans should be able to see at least half their games in season have a curtain raiser with their VFL team playing. It just makes more sense. The VFA of Sunday football domain went with late 1980's. We cannot bring that back but least try to bring back something footy fans loved that has been lost in last 20 years., which was curtain raisers to their AFL club. It would be something.

Historically Williamstown and Port Melbourne were the longer lasting VFA clubs that had links all the way back to early days of VFA around the time VFL clubs broke away. It would be nice link to have a part of both leagues we lost in last 20 years (VFA and AFL reserves) have an element of each come together for the long term future. Port Melbourne, Willy and the 10 Vic based AFL reserves sides in a competition makes more sense that the dogs breakfast with no vision we had the last 20 years.
As Sam Kekovich himself would say. You know it makes sense.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Having read through all the above my thoughts are as follows:

So it looks like Bendigo are gone from state league level forever and Sandringham going it alone.

This idea of bringing back VFA of late 70's or early 80's is gone. Seriously, most of the VFA clubs as we know it are gone, even if they still exist as a club in some sense in some other league. The power of VFA when they were clubs with some fan base was when VFA footy had the domain of Sunday footy to itself. That went long ago when AFL footy branched out from just being all Saturday games in Melbourne.
To be realistic only Port Melbourne as a stand alone club are clearly strong enough to live on by themselves in a league only one step down from AFL level. Coburg sound like they only exist in name only now and Preston and Carlton alliance, well as a Carlton fan it does nothing for me. I would have a stronger feeling for them if they were either Preston of old or Carlton true reserves side but I don't have same feeling when I see them in red and if I was a long time Preston fan I cannot imagine feeling as passionate when seeing in blue. It sounds like Preston are essentially gone as an own entity club. As someone else said it only seems like Box Hill Hawks works and that is because Box Hill itself was never a VFA power club, so there was not a long standing VFA fan base to start with. Nothing like Port or Sandy. Box Hill had similar colours to Hawks and geographical it works too.

So what do we do ? There really is only Port Melbourne, Williamstown, North Ballarat and maybe Sandringham from VFA that could probably survive in a long term state league but there is not enough old VFA 80's vintage clubs to have a proper VFA as old Sunday domain.
We are better off trying to get something closer to old VFL reserves with curtain raisers to AFL games as the longer term aim. I think 16 clubs is too many and if you include those 4 older VFA clubs as stand alone clubs you could probably create a decent 14 team league. I think it is about the best we can hope for.

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Sandringham
North Ballarat
Box Hill Hawks
Essendon
Footscray
Carlton
St.Kilda
Collingwood
North Melbourne
Geelong
Richmond
Melbourne

I think we have to give up the Casey Scorpions/Springvale/Melbourne thing and also except Coburg and Frankston days are numbered at this level. 16 clubs just has the standard too low.

The league has been a dogs breakfast for a good decade and a half. It needs sorting out for long term.
At AFL level the lack of pre-game entertainment is embarrassing. Surely curtain raisers would make the comp more relevant to more football fans in general?
There have been way to many byes for a number of seasons. As a Carlton fan trying to follow what is happening with our players not in AFL side it is a joke to find byes at times that just mess with the whole flow of season. So frustrating. It is a joke to have 3 or 4 byes during home and away and season not aligned as close to AFL fixturing as possible. 14 teams with 22 rounds and a final 8 would be better way to go. Surely?
Align the fixtures more attuned to AFL match ups. If Footscray are playing St.Kilda at Etithad Stadium have their VFL teams play before hand. Is it really that hard to organize ?

If an AFL Victorian based club is playing interstate, try to have them drawn to play an old VFA club that round. If North are playing Eagles in Perth have their VFL team be playing Sandringham, North Ballarat, Port Melbourne or Willy.

On Grand Final day in AFL have the VFL grand final the curtain raiser and if a stand alone club makes it into grand final there is a sensible allocation of tickets for their supporters to be there.

AFL fans should be able to see at least half their games in season have a curtain raiser with their VFL team playing. It just makes more sense. The VFA of Sunday football domain went with late 1980's. We cannot bring that back but least try to bring back something footy fans loved that has been lost in last 20 years., which was curtain raisers to their AFL club. It would be something.

Historically Williamstown and Port Melbourne were the longer lasting VFA clubs that had links all the way back to early days of VFA around the time VFL clubs broke away. It would be nice link to have a part of both leagues we lost in last 20 years (VFA and AFL reserves) have an element of each come together for the long term future. Port Melbourne, Willy and the 10 Vic based AFL reserves sides in a competition makes more sense that the dogs breakfast with no vision we had the last 20 years.
As Sam Kekovich himself would say. You know it makes sense.

Good post and I agree with a lot it, however I just don't think the curtain raiser thing is realistic, no way the AFL will or should jeopardise the playing surface to allow a curtain raiser. However no reason you couldn't have a 12 o clock kick off at Whitten Oval/princess park/punt road etc as a lead up to the 3pm twilight game on a Sunday, also Grand final played at Punt Road on AFL grand final day would be awesome.

 

[David Schwarz]

Having read through all the above my thoughts are as follows:

So it looks like Bendigo are gone from state league level forever and Sandringham going it alone.

This idea of bringing back VFA of late 70's or early 80's is gone. Seriously, most of the VFA clubs as we know it are gone, even if they still exist as a club in some sense in some other league. The power of VFA when they were clubs with some fan base was when VFA footy had the domain of Sunday footy to itself. That went long ago when AFL footy branched out from just being all Saturday games in Melbourne.
To be realistic only Port Melbourne as a stand alone club are clearly strong enough to live on by themselves in a league only one step down from AFL level. Coburg sound like they only exist in name only now and Preston and Carlton alliance, well as a Carlton fan it does nothing for me. I would have a stronger feeling for them if they were either Preston of old or Carlton true reserves side but I don't have same feeling when I see them in red and if I was a long time Preston fan I cannot imagine feeling as passionate when seeing in blue. It sounds like Preston are essentially gone as an own entity club. As someone else said it only seems like Box Hill Hawks works and that is because Box Hill itself was never a VFA power club, so there was not a long standing VFA fan base to start with. Nothing like Port or Sandy. Box Hill had similar colours to Hawks and geographical it works too.

So what do we do ? There really is only Port Melbourne, Williamstown, North Ballarat and maybe Sandringham from VFA that could probably survive in a long term state league but there is not enough old VFA 80's vintage clubs to have a proper VFA as old Sunday domain.
We are better off trying to get something closer to old VFL reserves with curtain raisers to AFL games as the longer term aim. I think 16 clubs is too many and if you include those 4 older VFA clubs as stand alone clubs you could probably create a decent 14 team league. I think it is about the best we can hope for.

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Sandringham
North Ballarat
Box Hill Hawks
Essendon
Footscray
Carlton
St.Kilda
Collingwood
North Melbourne
Geelong
Richmond
Melbourne

I think we have to give up the Casey Scorpions/Springvale/Melbourne thing and also except Coburg and Frankston days are numbered at this level. 16 clubs just has the standard too low.

The league has been a dogs breakfast for a good decade and a half. It needs sorting out for long term.
At AFL level the lack of pre-game entertainment is embarrassing. Surely curtain raisers would make the comp more relevant to more football fans in general?
There have been way to many byes for a number of seasons. As a Carlton fan trying to follow what is happening with our players not in AFL side it is a joke to find byes at times that just mess with the whole flow of season. So frustrating. It is a joke to have 3 or 4 byes during home and away and season not aligned as close to AFL fixturing as possible. 14 teams with 22 rounds and a final 8 would be better way to go. Surely?
Align the fixtures more attuned to AFL match ups. If Footscray are playing St.Kilda at Etithad Stadium have their VFL teams play before hand. Is it really that hard to organize ?

If an AFL Victorian based club is playing interstate, try to have them drawn to play an old VFA club that round. If North are playing Eagles in Perth have their VFL team be playing Sandringham, North Ballarat, Port Melbourne or Willy.

On Grand Final day in AFL have the VFL grand final the curtain raiser and if a stand alone club makes it into grand final there is a sensible allocation of tickets for their supporters to be there.

AFL fans should be able to see at least half their games in season have a curtain raiser with their VFL team playing. It just makes more sense. The VFA of Sunday football domain went with late 1980's. We cannot bring that back but least try to bring back something footy fans loved that has been lost in last 20 years., which was curtain raisers to their AFL club. It would be something.

Historically Williamstown and Port Melbourne were the longer lasting VFA clubs that had links all the way back to early days of VFA around the time VFL clubs broke away. It would be nice link to have a part of both leagues we lost in last 20 years (VFA and AFL reserves) have an element of each come together for the long term future. Port Melbourne, Willy and the 10 Vic based AFL reserves sides in a competition makes more sense that the dogs breakfast with no vision we had the last 20 years.
As Sam Kekovich himself would say. You know it makes sense.

Great post

 

[Our Game]

Why would Channel 9 want to cover Reserve Grade football?

You dont have to worry as the VFL will be on CH on Sat afternoons.

 

[speedybundy]

Here's how I'd fix the problem
- Have an AFL reserves league, fixture the same as seniors just either play as curtain raiser/at opposite venue (eg Geelong V Adelaide, seniors at Simonds reserves at Adelaide). Give AFL sides a list of 50-52 including rookies
- Clubs can have 5-8 players from VFL/WAFL/SANFL etc signed on as backups in case of mass injuries OR have one/multiple teams aligned with them as feeders
- No VFL reserves competition (WAFL/SANFL may still need one however), all state players are affiliated with a local team where they play if they don't get picked. State sides could have a list of 30 odd

Regardless I would get rid of the VFL reserves league, it's not up to the standard of some local leagues and players that I know who have played there say they have lost their passion for the game in those sides. Follow the Geelong VFL model and just let players who don't get picked play for a local side

 

[local footy fan]

Having read through all the above my thoughts are as follows:

So it looks like Bendigo are gone from state league level forever and Sandringham going it alone.

This idea of bringing back VFA of late 70's or early 80's is gone. Seriously, most of the VFA clubs as we know it are gone, even if they still exist as a club in some sense in some other league. The power of VFA when they were clubs with some fan base was when VFA footy had the domain of Sunday footy to itself. That went long ago when AFL footy branched out from just being all Saturday games in Melbourne.
To be realistic only Port Melbourne as a stand alone club are clearly strong enough to live on by themselves in a league only one step down from AFL level. Coburg sound like they only exist in name only now and Preston and Carlton alliance, well as a Carlton fan it does nothing for me. I would have a stronger feeling for them if they were either Preston of old or Carlton true reserves side but I don't have same feeling when I see them in red and if I was a long time Preston fan I cannot imagine feeling as passionate when seeing in blue. It sounds like Preston are essentially gone as an own entity club. As someone else said it only seems like Box Hill Hawks works and that is because Box Hill itself was never a VFA power club, so there was not a long standing VFA fan base to start with. Nothing like Port or Sandy. Box Hill had similar colours to Hawks and geographical it works too.

So what do we do ? There really is only Port Melbourne, Williamstown, North Ballarat and maybe Sandringham from VFA that could probably survive in a long term state league but there is not enough old VFA 80's vintage clubs to have a proper VFA as old Sunday domain.
We are better off trying to get something closer to old VFL reserves with curtain raisers to AFL games as the longer term aim. I think 16 clubs is too many and if you include those 4 older VFA clubs as stand alone clubs you could probably create a decent 14 team league. I think it is about the best we can hope for.

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Sandringham
North Ballarat
Box Hill Hawks
Essendon
Footscray
Carlton
St.Kilda
Collingwood
North Melbourne
Geelong
Richmond
Melbourne

I think we have to give up the Casey Scorpions/Springvale/Melbourne thing and also except Coburg and Frankston days are numbered at this level. 16 clubs just has the standard too low.

The league has been a dogs breakfast for a good decade and a half. It needs sorting out for long term.
At AFL level the lack of pre-game entertainment is embarrassing. Surely curtain raisers would make the comp more relevant to more football fans in general?
There have been way to many byes for a number of seasons. As a Carlton fan trying to follow what is happening with our players not in AFL side it is a joke to find byes at times that just mess with the whole flow of season. So frustrating. It is a joke to have 3 or 4 byes during home and away and season not aligned as close to AFL fixturing as possible. 14 teams with 22 rounds and a final 8 would be better way to go. Surely?
Align the fixtures more attuned to AFL match ups. If Footscray are playing St.Kilda at Etithad Stadium have their VFL teams play before hand. Is it really that hard to organize ?

If an AFL Victorian based club is playing interstate, try to have them drawn to play an old VFA club that round. If North are playing Eagles in Perth have their VFL team be playing Sandringham, North Ballarat, Port Melbourne or Willy.

On Grand Final day in AFL have the VFL grand final the curtain raiser and if a stand alone club makes it into grand final there is a sensible allocation of tickets for their supporters to be there.

AFL fans should be able to see at least half their games in season have a curtain raiser with their VFL team playing. It just makes more sense. The VFA of Sunday football domain went with late 1980's. We cannot bring that back but least try to bring back something footy fans loved that has been lost in last 20 years., which was curtain raisers to their AFL club. It would be something.

Historically Williamstown and Port Melbourne were the longer lasting VFA clubs that had links all the way back to early days of VFA around the time VFL clubs broke away. It would be nice link to have a part of both leagues we lost in last 20 years (VFA and AFL reserves) have an element of each come together for the long term future. Port Melbourne, Willy and the 10 Vic based AFL reserves sides in a competition makes more sense that the dogs breakfast with no vision we had the last 20 years.
As Sam Kekovich himself would say. You know it makes sense.

Not a bad read but I think North ballarts days are numbered now they are not allied with Nth Melb anymore as they will struggle to attract players of any quality to travel so far for training and playing each week, But I take offence at giving up Coburg and Frankston so easily as they have been in the system for a long time and to a lesser extent Casey.All three are proud clubs which have very good people working very hard to make sure they are successful. The VFA/VFL have let too many teams go by the way side in recent history the need to go hard at keeping all the teams there or bugger off and put people in place at the VFL who will work to keep the statas quo. GO THE BUGERS , DOLPHINS and SCORPIONS

 

[My North]

The VFL needs to improve.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

You dont have to worry as the VFL will be on CH on Sat afternoons.

Or will it be on 7mate on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday to suit the network like what happens in the SANFL - believe me you cannot guarantee a set time each Saturday on the main 7 station.

The WAFL has just announced 7 is on board now and they have not announced the TV matches in the fixture and the WAFC have confirmed that the day and time of each of the home and away TV matches are still to be confirmed.

 

[frotherr_]

I hate the look of the VFL league. We have AFL sides aligned to sides like Williamstown, first Collingwood, then Bulldogs, then half of North wasn't it, now stand alone. Other suburban sides are the same. I may of got those alignments with Williamstown wrong, but that is not because I have not been following at all, it is because it is so confusing.

I hate the fact that there is Richmond Tigers and the Werribee Tigers, and wasn't it the Coburg Tigers at one point. And Bendigo Bombers, and now the Essendon Bombers. It just seems a messy chuck together by the looks of it.

I can't understand how reject players, who can't become AFL players, play in sides like Port Melbourne, and now Williamstown, and they beat sides that have half a side with AFL talent. It is just a highlight that AFL recruits got it wrong.

And year after year they don't take these players that play all over our reserves, and leave them in the VFL competition. Then when they take the punt, they get products like Sam Dwyer, Michael Barlow and Podsiadly.

I think it needs an over haul. I think firstly, we need to get as many of the AFL sides to be proud enough in their own name, and have a side in the VFL. Pies have there VFL side, Bombers, Richmond, I love the Footscray side, that is really great to see. Fitzroy should be aligned to Brisbane. Although I am not sure that the Lions players that don't get a game for Brisbane Lions could fly down and play, but to have Fitzroy would be great.

All Victorian based sides should have there own VFL side. Then although not afiliated with an interstate side, they should line the same number of stand alone sides with interstate sides. This way, if the Pies played a Victorian side in the AFL, they play their VFL counterpart on the same weekend. Then when we play say Lions, we play Fitzroy in the VFL, Port Adelaide, Port Melbourne, line another stand alone like Bendigo with Crows, so you have some order in comparison to the AFL fixture.

I would love to go back to the days where the VFL (Reserves in the day), played as Curtain Raisers for the AFL game. It would certainly get more people to go to the footy if they got two games, and the stands would be fuller, but it would cut up the grounds like it did back when they had it that way, so I understand that, but why not have VFL games prior to the AFL game at a nearby oval. Richmond could play at Punt Road before the MCG or Etihard for the AFL, Pies could play at Vic Park, prior to the MCG or Etihard. Then supporters could go to one, then head over to the other. This would make a day out of it.

I dislike this play VFL side on Saturday, and AFL side on Sunday. Or Friday night AFL and Sunday for the Twos.

Whatever they do, if anything, try to have some common sense involved, because the way it is, and the amount of chopping and changing, is really quite ridiculous. They really need to give Victorians a decent competition we can learn to love. SANFL and WAFL are killing us, because they get to love their state side. How do kids learn to love a side that keeps changing their name, and alliance.

Have to agree with you 100%, especially with Dwyer. What a jet

 

[footyfan1978]

Are Frankston going to be in VFL next year ?
43.66% on ladder and get beaten by other poor sides regularly by over 100 points.

Certainly 15 teams is too much.
The sooner we remove the bye the better for everyone.

CURRENT LADDER
POS TEAM P W L D B FOR AGST % PTS
1 Box Hill Hawks 17 14 3 0 0 1729 1102 156.90 56
2 Williamstown 17 12 5 0 0 1682 1215 138.44 48
3 Sandringham 16 12 4 0 0 1488 1246 119.42 48
4 Footscray Bulldogs 17 11 6 0 0 1643 1221 134.56 44
5 Essendon 17 11 6 0 0 1600 1292 123.84 44
6 Werribee Tigers 17 11 6 0 0 1494 1280 116.72 44
7 Collingwood 17 11 6 0 0 1561 1427 109.39 44
8 Casey Scorpions 17 9 8 0 0 1344 1263 106.41 36
9 Port Melbourne 17 7 10 0 0 1562 1525 102.43 28
10 North Ballarat 17 7 10 0 0 1295 1447 89.50 28
11 Coburg 17 7 10 0 0 1247 1471 84.77 28
12 Geelong Cats 16 6 10 0 0 1205 1421 84.80 24
13 Richmond Tigers 17 5 12 0 0 1273 1525 83.48 20
14 Northern Blues 17 4 13 0 0 1273 1660 76.69 16
15 Frankston 18 0 18 0 0 1008 2309 43.66 0

 

[sverik25]

Are Frankston going to be in VFL next year ?
43.66% on ladder and get beaten by other poor sides regularly by over 100 points.

Certainly 15 teams is too much.
The sooner we remove the bye the better for everyone.

CURRENT LADDER
POS TEAM P W L D B FOR AGST % PTS
1 Box Hill Hawks 17 14 3 0 0 1729 1102 156.90 56
2 Williamstown 17 12 5 0 0 1682 1215 138.44 48
3 Sandringham 16 12 4 0 0 1488 1246 119.42 48
4 Footscray Bulldogs 17 11 6 0 0 1643 1221 134.56 44
5 Essendon 17 11 6 0 0 1600 1292 123.84 44
6 Werribee Tigers 17 11 6 0 0 1494 1280 116.72 44
7 Collingwood 17 11 6 0 0 1561 1427 109.39 44
8 Casey Scorpions 17 9 8 0 0 1344 1263 106.41 36
9 Port Melbourne 17 7 10 0 0 1562 1525 102.43 28
10 North Ballarat 17 7 10 0 0 1295 1447 89.50 28
11 Coburg 17 7 10 0 0 1247 1471 84.77 28
12 Geelong Cats 16 6 10 0 0 1205 1421 84.80 24
13 Richmond Tigers 17 5 12 0 0 1273 1525 83.48 20
14 Northern Blues 17 4 13 0 0 1273 1660 76.69 16
15 Frankston 18 0 18 0 0 1008 2309 43.66 0

They've been hopeless this year, but usually they at least manage a few wins (6 last year I think?). Frankston is also an old club with a long VFA/VFL history, and their new social club building has just been completed. All in all it would be very disappointing to see them go.

The St Kilda reserves team is due in 2017.

 

[footyfan1978]

They've been hopeless this year, but usually they at least manage a few wins (6 last year I think?). Frankston is also an old club with a long VFA/VFL history, and their new social club building has just been completed. All in all it would be very disappointing to see them go.

The St Kilda reserves team is due in 2016

That is interesting about the social club building.
I did not think they were one of the long lasting original VFA clubs.
I'm sure they were playing in 1970's and maybe a decade or two before but were they there around 1900 ?
I think we need to keep the originals such as Willy and Port Melbourne for sure but not sure the length of history for Frankston so much.
If their club just played in a lower level league maybe it would be better. Not sure of the following for them locally for short to longer. Be interested to hear from people in that area that take an interest.

St.Kilda in VFL is good to hear. Just not sure about the number of teams being 15 or 16.
14 I think is most to keep standard reasonable.
12 would be ideal but the cost to a few clubs maybe going elsewhere is the issue.

 

[sverik25]

That is interesting about the social club building.
I did not think they were one of the long lasting original VFA clubs.
I'm sure they were playing in 1970's and maybe a decade or two before but were they there around 1900 ?
I think we need to keep the originals such as Willy and Port Melbourne for sure but not sure the length of history for Frankston so much.
If their club just played in a lower level league maybe it would be better. Not sure of the following for them locally for short to longer. Be interested to hear from people in that area that take an interest.

St.Kilda in VFL is good to hear. Just not sure about the number of teams being 15 or 16.
14 I think is most to keep standard reasonable.
12 would be ideal but the cost to a few clubs maybe going elsewhere is the issue.

Maybe they need to separate into AFL Reserves (called the VFL) and the VFA again, with say 10 teams:

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Coburg
Sandringham
Casey/Springvale
Box Hill
Werribee
North Ballarat
Frankston (you would think that they should be more competitive once AFL alignments are removed)
Preston

Obviously though we all know what happened to the VFA, and chances are, that without the AFL reserves teams the interest in the competition, interest would be lost.

Personally I still enjoy the VFL with the number of teams it has at the moment, but yes, Frankston is becoming a real issue. I would think if things don't turn around next season their position will be seriously considered.

 

[speedybundy]

Maybe they need to separate into AFL Reserves (called the VFL) and the VFA again, with say 10 teams:

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Coburg
Sandringham
Casey/Springvale
Box Hill
Werribee
North Ballarat
Frankston (you would think that they should be more competitive once AFL alignments are removed)
Preston

Obviously though we all know what happened to the VFA, and chances are, that without the AFL reserves teams the interest in the competition, interest would be lost.

Personally I still enjoy the VFL with the number of teams it has at the moment, but yes, Frankston is becoming a real issue. I would think if things don't turn around next season their position will be seriously considered.

Like the idea, but not the teams. There's so many teams from Melbourne in the AFL for the VFL to succeed in that format they need to spread the teams around. Get interest from cities with not as much AFL exposure. I'd have 11 teams

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Coburg
Sandringham
Box Hill
Werribee
North Ballarat
Frankston
Goulburn Valley
Bendigo
Geelong

 

[sverik25]

Like the idea, but not the teams. There's so many teams from Melbourne in the AFL for the VFL to succeed in that format they need to spread the teams around. Get interest from cities with not as much AFL exposure. I'd have 11 teams

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Coburg
Sandringham
Box Hill
Werribee
North Ballarat
Frankston
Goulburn Valley
Bendigo
Geelong

I was more just going off the traditional VFA clubs.

I'm pretty sure in the early 2000s there was a team from Gippsland as well as the Murray Kangaroos, but neither of those teams worked out. Bendigo also had its go but unfortunately the Gold just simply couldn't compete. Maybe though with not having to compete against AFL players they would be viable.

 

[eth-dog]

I was more just going off the traditional VFA clubs.

I'm pretty sure in the early 2000s there was a team from Gippsland as well as the Murray Kangaroos, but neither of those teams worked out. Bendigo also had its go but unfortunately the Gold just simply couldn't compete. Maybe though with not having to compete against AFL players they would be viable.

Bendigo Gold was essentially a franchise, the VFA screwed it horribly. They didn't ask one of the existing big clubs from Bendigo into the league, they took QE Oval and made their own. It was destined to fail.

 

[speedybundy]

I was more just going off the traditional VFA clubs.

I'm pretty sure in the early 2000s there was a team from Gippsland as well as the Murray Kangaroos, but neither of those teams worked out. Bendigo also had its go but unfortunately the Gold just simply couldn't compete. Maybe though with not having to compete against AFL players they would be viable.

Yep understand that, I was just expanding on my theory that the VFL is always going to struggle for traction in Melbourne with 9 AFL clubs there. I think if you base more clubs regionally it gives the comp a real chance to succeed in that system, having players affiliated to local leagues etc. Literally just thought of this as I was typing it but would there be a case for making the VFL a 'seniors' TAC Cup competition?

I think Bendigo would have a really good chance with better management. If you were going to give that regional side idea a real crack you'd think about a North Western Vic side, Warrnambool, Gippsland and maybe a second Geelong team too. The most important thing would be trying to broker a good broadcast deal, maybe 1-2 games a week FTA and another 2 on Fox Footy. I've given this real thought!

 

[The Speaker]

Yep understand that, I was just expanding on my theory that the VFL is always going to struggle for traction in Melbourne with 9 AFL clubs there. I think if you base more clubs regionally it gives the comp a real chance to succeed in that system, having players affiliated to local leagues etc. Literally just thought of this as I was typing it but would there be a case for making the VFL a 'seniors' TAC Cup competition?

I think Bendigo would have a really good chance with better management. If you were going to give that regional side idea a real crack you'd think about a North Western Vic side, Warrnambool, Gippsland and maybe a second Geelong team too. The most important thing would be trying to broker a good broadcast deal, maybe 1-2 games a week FTA and another 2 on Fox Footy. I've given this real thought!

Australians have little interest in whatever isn't the top tier.

This is why I don't think reducing the amount of teams in the AFL fixes anything. Instead, the solution is simple - make state leagues the highest level. I reckon a 20 team, two division VFL would be viable.

 

[footyfan1978]

Maybe they need to separate into AFL Reserves (called the VFL) and the VFA again, with say 10 teams:

Port Melbourne
Williamstown
Coburg
Sandringham
Casey/Springvale
Box Hill
Werribee
North Ballarat
Frankston (you would think that they should be more competitive once AFL alignments are removed)
Preston

Obviously though we all know what happened to the VFA, and chances are, that without the AFL reserves teams the interest in the competition, interest would be lost.

Not a bad idea actually.
I remember the old VFL had two divisions. I certainly remember sides like Brunswick, Caulfield, Dandenong and Geelong West used to exist in VFA and there was a relegation system.

Maybe your idea could be adapted to something of that form
I think if we treated the AFL 10 Victorian clubs as having genuine reserves teams as the essence of a division one and some of the old traditional VFA clubs as division two with the the premiership stand alone club promoted to division one it could work in an odd way for long term.
So you might have 12 teams in VFL (division one) and 8 teams in VFA (division two) it could fit where we are at in where state league level should be.

Certainly the sooner, Carlton, St.Kilda, Melbourne and North Melbourne get their own reserves team in true name we could have the 10 reserves team and two best stand alone VFA clubs in division one and it removes byes and fixture the VFL in a way where when the 10 AFL Vic clubs play each other in AFL that their reserves teams play the same week as much as possible and have more curtain raisers where possible. Certainly as a Carlton supporter I know we had 3 curtain raisers during year but only the one v Collingwood at MCG was against the same club we played in AFL. I think we need more of that.

So it might start with the following set up
VFL
Box Hill Hawks
Footscray
St.Kilda
Geelong
Essendon
Geelong
Carlton
Collingwood
Richmond
North Melbourne
Williamstown
Port Melbourne

VFA
Casey Scorpions
Sandringham
Werribee
Coburg
Preston
North Ballarat
Frankston
Dandenong

The VFA could start as 8 team league and play each other 3 times for 21 home and away rounds and have a old top four finals series.
Premiership team promoted to VFL the following season and lowest stand alone club of the two in VFL is relegated to make place for the VFA premiers the following year.

If in time the VFA grew to 10 teams and allowed another form of a Bendigo club to get involved that should remain open as possibility and also a Gippsland Valley team or some other old VFA club like Prahran or even some form of a Fitzroy club brought into existence. Not sure but I believe something of this nature could work if given a decent chance of a decade to find a footing in Victoria.

Would be interesting alternative idea to current mix of the way state league level footy in run here.
I'd love to see things like my own Carlton reserves team and Preston Bullants exist as individual teams.
Maybe Hawthorn and Box Hill creating Box Hill Hawks has been a genuine win-win for both entities that could remain as it is.

 

[The Speaker]

Not a bad idea actually.
I remember the old VFL had two divisions. I certainly remember sides like Brunswick, Caulfield, Dandenong and Geelong West used to exist in VFA and there was a relegation system.

Maybe your idea could be adapted to something of that form
I think if we treated the AFL 10 Victorian clubs as having genuine reserves teams as the essence of a division one and some of the old traditional VFA clubs as division two with the the premiership stand alone club promoted to division one it could work in an odd way for long term.
So you might have 12 teams in VFL (division one) and 8 teams in VFA (division two) it could fit where we are at in where state league level should be.

Certainly the sooner, Carlton, St.Kilda, Melbourne and North Melbourne get their own reserves team in true name we could have the 10 reserves team and two best stand alone VFA clubs in division one and it removes byes and fixture the VFL in a way where when the 10 AFL Vic clubs play each other in AFL that their reserves teams play the same week as much as possible and have more curtain raisers where possible. Certainly as a Carlton supporter I know we had 3 curtain raisers during year but only the one v Collingwood at MCG was against the same club we played in AFL. I think we need more of that.

So it might start with the following set up
VFL
Box Hill Hawks
Footscray
St.Kilda
Geelong
Essendon
Geelong
Carlton
Collingwood
Richmond
North Melbourne
Williamstown
Port Melbourne

VFA
Casey Scorpions
Sandringham
Werribee
Coburg
Preston
North Ballarat
Frankston
Dandenong

The VFA could start as 8 team league and play each other 3 times for 21 home and away rounds and have a old top four finals series.
Premiership team promoted to VFL the following season and lowest stand alone club of the two in VFL is relegated to make place for the VFA premiers the following year.

If in time the VFA grew to 10 teams and allowed another form of a Bendigo club to get involved that should remain open as possibility and also a Gippsland Valley team or some other old VFA club like Prahran or even some form of a Fitzroy club brought into existence. Not sure but I believe something of this nature could work if given a decent chance of a decade to find a footing in Victoria.

Would be interesting alternative idea to current mix of the way state league level footy in run here.
I'd love to see things like my own Carlton reserves team and Preston Bullants exist as individual teams.
Maybe Hawthorn and Box Hill creating Box Hill Hawks has been a genuine win-win for both entities that could remain as it is.

But where is the growth going to come from? Not enough people are interested in the second tier of sports to differentiate it from the ammos in the long run. Right now these clubs are mostly surviving on those that remember the old days, and their kids/grandkids who aren't old enough to choose which games to go to on their own.

 

[footyfan1978]

But where is the growth going to come from? Not enough people are interested in the second tier of sports to differentiate it from the ammos in the long run. Right now these clubs are mostly surviving on those that remember the old days, and their kids/grandkids who aren't old enough to choose which games to go to on their own.

Part of reason people lose interest in second tier is when it is a mess and little structure which it has been for over two decades now.
If there was a clear structure of reserves team level, then next level down for stand alone clubs it would find a better niche of interest.
But as it is, it is a bit of a mess. Hence part of the reason to think of ideas better than what we got. The growth it itself is more about clubs having some pride of their standing in the level of Victorian football below AFL level. I think if we regularly reward two VFA stand alone clubs the chance to compete with players seen as pushing for AFL senior teams it helps the standard of footy rather than dilute and spread it which we have now.
At the moment the VFL kind of has different goals for different clubs. A clear VFL as division one and VFA for division two gives clearer goals of what each club is trying to achieve. Reserves team are there to purely develop team play for their AFL club. VFA stand alone clubs are for pure pride in club feel at level down from AFL but also giving the chance for a couple of clubs to directly compete against players already in AFL systems.

The spectator growth I'm not sure about. For me the VFL should be to enhance present AFL supporters that follow their club but lose touch with players developing on their list they barely see. The experience at the moment lacks a lot when you do not have a genuine reserves team. I'd have more passion myself with following what is going on in VFL and VFA if the type of clearer structure was in place that I have a way of seeing more curtain raisers and also keep an interest in something like VFA for players essentially not on AFL list but possibly could be and also their VFA clubs as distinct from nonsense I see now of neither a Carlton reserves team or a Preston club. It is just not good for football these types of mixed up entities that try to stand for both but stand for neither in the end.

I do not like seeing 15 or 16 teams all competing in one level and the standard is spread too thin for development of good players for your AFL team. Just not enjoyed it for a good two decades. It is football limbo.