Other New Patriots Scandal - DeflateGate

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GG said:
What a bunch of incompetents!!

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NFL didn’t log the PSI of each Patriots football
Posted by Michael David Smith on January 29, 2015, 5:30 PM EST
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What was the precise PSI of each of the 12 footballs the Patriots’ offense used in the AFC Championship Game? We’ll probably never know.

NFL head of officiating Dean Blandino confirmed today that the NFL didn’t log the exact PSI of each football. According to Blandino, when officials inspect footballs to see if they’re properly inflated, they simply approve them or disapprove them.

In other words, although the Patriots did play with under-inflated footballs, the NFL hasn’t kept detailed records of whether those footballs were slightly under-inflated (which could be the result of a change in temperature) or significantly under-inflated (which would indicate that someone purposely let air out of the footballs).

The NFL will apply a low standard of proof to the Deflategate investigation, which means that the NFL doesn’t necessarily need an air-tight case to conclude that the Patriots broke the rules. But anyone who wants the NFL to get to the bottom of this should want the NFL to be as careful as it possibly can to preserve every piece of evidence it possibly can. And a detailed log of the inflation levels of each football is a piece of evidence the NFL should have.
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dodgy record keeping? now where have I heard that before...
 
GG said:
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/blo...28-deflategate--the-bjge-case-study/22457277/

Remember when Cincinnati signed BenJarvus Green-Ellis in 2012? The primary talking point, as one would expect, was in his reliability running with the football. That couldn't be disputed. The guy was a walking lock box with the ball.

This was the direct excerpt from the Bengals media guide in 2012.

"Green-Ellis has been a coach's dream in the area of ball security. He has never fumbled in the NFL, covering 536 touches in regular-season play and 52 touches in the postseason. Elias Sports Bureau reports that his 536 fumble-free regular-season touches comprises the longest start-of-career streak for any player since 1945, when recording of fumbles for individual players began."

Obviously, an impressive feat and major reason to hand a guy $9 million over three years.

What happened next? Well, BJGE had his streak broken. And then kept on fumbling.

So, following his 536 touches without a fumble, he fumbled five times in the next two years with Cincinnati on a total of 524 touches. How does a player go from fumbling zero times in 536 touches to five in the next 524?

Well, that's when the DeflateGate controversy and this incredible data analysis from Slate comes in.

Here is Slate's story on essentially the statistical impossibility in the change of the number of fumbles by the Patriots compared to other non-dome teams since teams were allowed control of their own footballs in 2007 -- a charge led by Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

And when I say statistical impossibility, I mean that in every sense of the phrase.

635580332890856556-150126-SN-chart01.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg

Charts of fumbles courtesy Warren Sharp and via Slate.com (Photo: Slate.com/Warren Sharp)

All you need to do is take one look at that graph. Kudos to Slate and Warren Sharp for digging up that research. Obviously, a ball deflated by a couple pounds would be far easier to hold onto and not allow to be ripped away. You don't need Bill Nye for that.

For the first seven years of Belichick's reign they fell into line with the norms of the league, but then once they were able to control their own footballs went as far away from the rest of the pack as imaginable, and then some.

Then take the Bengals case in point with BJGE, who went from the guy who never fumbles to less than trustworthy with the ball in his new home, losing it three times in his first season here.

Perhaps there are other non-deflate reasons for this. Maybe it was a way they legally rubbed up the footballs or a special technology of glove they had there. Who the heck knows? But in the wake of all this deflating scandal, it's not hard to point to BJGE and these numbers and wonder if this has indeed been going on for years.
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"For the first seven years of Belichick's reign they fell into line with the norms of the league, but then once they were able to control their own footballs went as far away from the rest of the pack as imaginable, and then some."

well thats that then, I'm sold
 

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So if we assume someone from the Pats deflated the balls, what punishments should/could we expect?

Bare in mind, Sean Payton wasn't suspend for a season for running a "bounty" program. He was suspended for not knowing Gregg Williams was running one.
 
JeffDunne said:
So if we assume someone from the Pats deflated the balls, what punishments should/could we expect?

Bare in mind, Sean Payton wasn't suspend for a season for running a "bounty" program. He was suspended for not knowing Gregg Williams was running one.
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In the Patriots defence, they weren't doing anything that endangered the health and careers of other players. So the punishments should be minor in comparison to the "Saints".
Maybe a draft pick (or 2..........Or 3 as a second offence after "spygate")
But anything more should bring out a retrospective additional punishment to the Saints in the spirit of fairness.
 
oh this just gets better and better.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/super-bowl-live/0ap3000000465882/Roger-Goodell-addresses-DeflateGate

No knowledge of past in-game testing. Asked if the NFL has tested the air pressure in footballs during a game in the past, and how important that is as a frame of reference in the ongoing investigation, Goodell said he didn’t know the answer and that attorney Ted Wells will look into that as part of the investigation. From our viewpoint, this answer warrants scrutiny based on the magnitude of the NFL’s investigation and the media firestorm it has created. How could Goodell not know?
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The answer is obviously because they never have tested at half time before and there was obviously never an issue previously.

So it seems a complaint was lodged recently, followed by a hasty NFL ambush. Im more than happy to side with the confident Billionaire who just challenged this w***er (his mate, who was missing from this address he normally attends,funny enough) publicly. With all the now conflicting reports of actual amounts of missing air and number of balls and the degree in which they were affected, I just can't wait to see this go down in flames.

You know, I know its easy to jusy say its a knee jerk defensive reaction by patriots fans, when infact my own GUT told me this was BS from the start. Even though its hard for the army of clowns to get this to penetrate their ruddy skulls, not all of us are blinded sheep who dont ever consider that the team may be in the wrong. I was cautious at first to scream innocent, as we had been known of wrong doing once in the past.

Let me stop here seeings someone brought it up and Ive got a few minutes to spare to rant -To pull a camera on to the field during a game to film a viewpoint outside the rules of filming was illeagal was stupid and Bill admited to Kraft after that jets game, in terms of helping the team, it was a 1 on a scale of 100. Kraft said he was a dickhead and in hindsight he was, considering the risk reward ratio. If you want me to hate the coach for pushing the envelope in any and every way I wont. I dont hate BB for spygate, its not a hateable offense for me. Youv'e got rocks in your head if you think I dont want a coach that will push it. Thats who I want! Ill happily admit he should ALWAYS do things within the rules if it makes you all feel better, BUT if your own numb skull, puts all your hate filled fortune cookies into that jar as a principle beacon of wrong doing in the history of football, dont expect me to take you all that seriously. If you wana hate the patriots, fine, but dont be so bloody tone deaf as to come on here and say stuff like "their fans dont consider spygate a big deal" Spygate was a big frackn deal let me tell ya, in its punnishment and in the never ending bs associated with it, right up until now. 7 years of it! This latest publicly/media driven fiasco has easily for us fans, destroyed what spygate ghost this very SB was supposed to eliminate for US!!! Frackn Spygate, this SB was going to end it for US and before the AFC confetti finished raining from the sky and we could start to enjoy our bloody SB week, we got served a nice plate of deflategate vomit insead. You wonder why we are a little shitted off?.. For a patriots fan there isn't anything worse and more annoying than spygate and now we have the most over hyped bs story since that served up for us just in time. In the comparioson to all the other s**t that has gone down over the years on and off the NFL field, if only the other stuff got the overinflated spotlight of spygate. Just imagine, Michael Vick would have been executed, The miami dolphins would hand their entire 2015 salary cap to the kid who got bullied, the saints simply wouldn't exist, the colts wouldnt have a draft pick for 10 years and all NFL refs would be in concentration camps... nd thats just a couple of things I can think of off the top of my head!

Back to this

Now while we are still all awaiting the rest of those little things called crucial facts to come out, it renders many of your current arguments useless and void of any discussion imo. You can buy espn news if you like and use it as your base, but Ill stick with the money on this and Kraft is not only the money, but imo a man of his word and a man of integrity, dont think he wasn't let down by Bill in 07, he was big time. Now if it was Jerry Jones in this situation I'd be a little more skeptical of his word as we all know Jerry would probably defend his team till the death even if guilty, but most owners are not going to go challege the NFL commish publicly without a serious believe its all good. These owners are where they are because they are very smart people. I have no problem siding with my team after Krafts response. For me, that was the gamechanger, thats what I was waiting for as a fan. His responce was my validation and even I a BB confessed deciple, when on matters of cheating, I would take Krafts word over BB's word on most things in question.. like THIS and when TB BB and RK all came out in flatout rejection unity, which DIDN'T happen in SPYGATE for all those non PATS fans who wouldnt even have a clue, thats how I can sit here and say, Im not a pats hommer dreaming of a happy ending here, Im thinking very clearly about this and I'm sure we are going to be fine. Not to mention the obvious bloody question...After SPYGATE why the f would Bill and the rest of the team bother? SERIOUSLY the notion itself is just beyond stupid and if you thinks its for some horse s**t on field advantage the patriots were seeking, I think the second half ruined your theory.

In the court of public opinion, as far as I'm concerned, they dont want to hear anything other than fines and suspensions. Nohing else will do. While they all sharpen their blades and get ready for public executions, we'll go and enjoy our SB, deflated or not. Oh and as for this whinging about deception with the receivers talk that is now cropping up... AGAIN... its FOOTBALL FFS! A god damn fake punt is deception!! The game itself is about deception! Go piss and moan to someone who cares, because the same rules dont stop your team doing it either! Their coaches just didnt think of it first! The rest of the NFL fanbase for the most part are tired of the Pats we get it, but dont think you know us or what it is we are thinking or seeing based on your own prejudgmental mort crapola filled sandwiches.

Finally

Woodson - Im not taking it personally mate, this is a misconception. Im pissed in general, that many on here have sided with pitchforks so hastily based soley on spygate and on media sources and stories already falling apart as we speak. Fair is fair and everyone should have a chance to prove their case, no matter how guilty the may seem to the outside viewer and no matter what past guilts have been found out. In this case SPYGATE. This is bloody democracy 101 ffs you'd think we live in NKorea around here. Its also pretty disappointing to see people going out of their way to prove years of cheating based on the little at hand we have and proven bs stories to make these theories seem likely. IF you want to put your faith into some of the stuff floating around here go ahead, but my point was, I really expected some longer term people on here to be not so easily fooled/persuaded by media and not so quick to rush a judgment. Considering there is a LOT of unkowns here still and a LOT or source reports based on john does saying so.

Pretty much all I have to say on this for good, but we will all soon see what end's up happening re deflate wank and Im sure everyone will still be fighting about it long after the fact like every other overblown NE pats are cheats story in recent history. It might be hard to believe but maybe the pats didnt need to cheat to beat your team. Like the Colts players have aggreed with in the majority and classy of them to admit it. Unlike some former players who dont care it seems about class or respect of due process, just get on that camera! :D
 
I doubt the NFL will find any wrongdoing now that it has been scientifically proven that a football inflated to 12.5 psi at 75F and then subjected to 50F in wet conditions for 2.5 hours will deflate by as much as 1.95 psi.

Link: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7952719/deflategate-patriots-science

It doesn't explain why Indy's balls were still within regulation pressure, but if they were initially inflated to the maximum allowed air pressure and then kept warm and dry on the sidelines, any drop in pressure may still have them at around 12.5 psi by half time.

We will never know for sure now that we have found out that NFL officials don't bother to record the precise measurements of the footballs upon inspection.

One point that has not been raised in this whole saga is the effect of using deflated footballs. While they are slightly easier to grip and catch, they are definitely more difficult to throw (or kick) for accuracy and distance.
 
GG said:
All Goodell cares about is whether a rule was broken or not. Doesn't care if there was an advantage to be gained, or how much or less a rule was broken. He said that today regarding DeflateGate.
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Right, in which he also said there may even be no infracton!
 
flamethrower said:
I doubt the NFL will find any wrongdoing now that it has been scientifically proven that a football inflated to 12.5 psi at 75F and then subjected to 50F in wet conditions for 2.5 hours will deflate by as much as 1.95 psi.

Link: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7952719/deflategate-patriots-science

It doesn't explain why Indy's balls were still within regulation pressure, but if they were initially inflated to the maximum allowed air pressure and then kept warm and dry on the sidelines, any drop in pressure may still have them at around 12.5 psi by half time.

We will never know for sure now that we have found out that NFL officials don't bother to record the precise measurements of the footballs upon inspection.

One point that has not been raised in this whole saga is the effect of using deflated footballs. While they are slightly easier to grip and catch, they are definitely more difficult to throw (or kick) for accuracy and distance.
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I have not heard nearly ennough about this, what were there psi? what was the change, even if it was in the limit? Were they tested before the game because the refs claim not all the pats balls were checked and recorded only checked...whatever that is ....squeez test????
 

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I'm confused.

If the balls can lose 2 psi through temp AND moisture then why weren't the colts balls under?

Even if they filled them to 13.5 psi some should have still been under. Especially when considering that that calculation includes pressure on the inside of the ball AND on the outside. Wouldn't that mean that on average their balls would lose more pressure than the less inflated patriots balls? As if both pressures are included a 10% drop in the highly inflated colts balls would be greater than a 10% drop in the pats balls

Keep in mind that these calcs are giving the pats the benefit of the doubt at every step in the equation
 
That vox article is a load of crap.

Why?

If they were inflated to the maximum air pressure (13.5 psi) instead of the minimum (12.5 psi) to start the game, it's conceivable they might have stayed within the allowed bounds by halftime.
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Utter nonsense.

If the starting pressure is higher, atmospheric variances would mean a greater drop in pressure than those originally inflated to lower pressure.

Therefore if the Colts' balls started 1 psi higher & experienced the same effects as the Pats balls, there is no way they'd still be over 12. psi.

The fact the Colts balls were at a higher starting pressure and didn't deflate debunks Physicist Bill's theory.
 
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Blacky said:
I'm confused.

If the balls can lose 2 psi through temp AND moisture then why weren't the colts balls under
Even if they filled them to 13.5 psi some should have still been under. Especially when considering that that calculation includes pressure on the inside of the ball AND on the outside. Wouldn't that mean that on average their balls would lose more pressure than the less inflated patriots balls? As if both pressures are included a 10% drop in the highly inflated colts balls would be greater than a 10% drop in the pats balls

Keep in mind that these calcs are giving the pats the benefit of the doubt at every step in the equation
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The whole story is confusing, who knows, we dont know any of this info and its REALLY important info. What was the deal with the Colts balls surely they have moved some in the conditions not saying much, I dont know but some and were they measured before the game unlinke the patriots balls that were checked at half time.....
 
GG said:
All Goodell cares about is whether a rule was broken or not. Doesn't care if there was an advantage to be gained, or how much or less a rule was broken. He said that today regarding DeflateGate.
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And how would he even know? The evidence so far suggests that the balls may have given a reading some unrecorded amount under the required pressure using a single uncalibrated pressure gauge.

It is totally unfathomable to me that at the first suggestion the balls were outside the range they didn't take all the balls in question, plus the Colt's main balls and put them under lock and key, use the back up balls for the rest of the game and then test all the first set of balls using proper equipment in various settings.

It just seems so basic.
 
Simple Jack said:
And how would he even know? The evidence so far suggests that the balls may have given a reading some unrecorded amount under the required pressure using a single uncalibrated pressure gauge.

It is totally unfathomable to me that at the first suggestion the balls were outside the range they didn't take all the balls in question, plus the Colt's main balls and put them under lock and key, use the back up balls for the rest of the game and then test all the first set of balls using proper equipment in various settings.

It just seems so basic.
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Because 1) pre game all twenty four balls legal. 2) ball boy seen taking balls into bathroom 3) only 12 pats balls under inflated at half but no colts balls 4) after re inflated all 12 pats balls and all 24 colts balls retained legal pressure THUS 5) pats balls had to be tampered with. THUS 6) trying to get to bottom of testimony and getting admittance.
 
GG said:
Because 1) pre game all twenty four balls legal. 2) ball boy seen taking balls into bathroom 3) only 12 pats balls under inflated at half but no colts balls 4) after re inflated all 12 pats balls and all 24 colts balls retained legal pressure THUS 5) pats balls had to be tampered with. THUS 6) trying to get to bottom of testimony and getting admittance.
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Ok, but where was any of this recorded? How much were they deflated? It's ridiculous. Besides, you seem to be getting your total understanding of this from the various media reports which have been (as usual) all over the place.

And I totally agree with Goodell that it's totally irrelevant whether an advantage is gained or not. It's all about the rule. Intentionally deflating the balls should definitely be punished reasonably harshly. Ball deflation due to minimum pressure + OAT effects maybe a slight punishment.

As long as a legitimate investigation is done I have absolutely no problem with anyone in the organisation (or the organisation as a whole) being punished if guilt of deliberate ball tampering is found.
 
Simple Jack said:
Ok, but where was any of this recorded? How much were they deflated? It's ridiculous. Besides, you seem to be getting your total understanding of this from the various media reports which have been (as usual) all over the place.

And I totally agree with Goodell that it's totally irrelevant whether an advantage is gained or not. It's all about the rule. Intentionally deflating the balls should definitely be punished reasonably harshly. Ball deflation due to minimum pressure + OAT effects maybe a slight punishment.

As long as a legitimate investigation is done I have absolutely no problem with anyone in the organisation (or the organisation as a whole) being punished if guilt of deliberate ball tampering is found.
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The point of reference being that the officials tested the balls pre game, found all twenty four legal, they didn't record it which is an nfl protocol flaw, but they were legal inside the approved range. After complaints, they tested all twenty four again at the half, and only the 12 pats balls were found to be illegally under the approved range. That no figures were recorded again is an nfl protocol flaw, but they were under whilst the Colts balls were not. They reported that they then inflated the pats balls to be legal, and tested end of game all twenty four. All retained their pressure.

Perhaps the officials in investigation can remember exactly how low the psi was on some or all of the pats balls, tho they weren't recorded, perhaps they said to the nfl when quizzed in the investigation and or to someone in the nfl at the half what those numbers were.
 
GG said:
The point of reference being that the officials tested the balls pre game, found all twenty four legal, they didn't record it which is an nfl protocol flaw, but they were legal inside the approved range. After complaints, they tested all twenty four again at the half, and only the 12 pats balls were found to be illegally under the approved range. That no figures were recorded again is an nfl protocol flaw, but they were under whilst the Colts balls were not. They reported that they then inflated the pats balls to be legal, and tested end of game all twenty four. All retained their pressure.

Perhaps the officials in investigation can remember exactly how low the psi was on some or all of the pats balls, tho they weren't recorded, perhaps they said to the nfl when quizzed in the investigation and or to someone in the nfl at the half what those numbers were.
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It would also be good to know how the refs tested the balls. Did they specifically measure the pressure in all 24 (pats and colts) using a gauge or did they just squeeze test them. Someone posted somewhere earlier in this thread that a 2psi difference allowed the ball to be squeezed an extra 1mm or something and would be pretty imperceptible to touch.

I actually have a couple of Wilson footballs, might go try.
 
Simple Jack said:
It would also be good to know how the refs tested the balls. Did they specifically measure the pressure in all 24 (pats and colts) using a gauge or did they just squeeze test them. Someone posted somewhere earlier in this thread that a 2psi difference allowed the ball to be squeezed an extra 1mm or something and would be pretty imperceptible to touch.

I actually have a couple of Wilson footballs, might go try.
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Obviously if they re-inflated them then they would've used a pressure gauge pump. So that they know when to stop putting air in them, how much more air they had to put in them, how low they were below. You know, when you see your tire flat you can only use a gauge pump to refill them. It would say, 26 psi, so you know to get to the right 28-32 range for a car tire that you have to put 6 in, not 26.
 
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