No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[Despair]

Nonsense. We had a club wide injection program for which there are no records, was no oversight and to this day has not been explained in full. A report issued by the club itself described the whole thing as a "pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged or documented within the Club".

We stuffed up in ways that should NEVER happen at a football club. We are not owed compensation in any way.

Okay Ben.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Okay Ben.

?

 

[DapperJong]

McDevitt

 

[ManWithNoName]

McDevitt

Ah we're back to the "if you don't view us as innocent of everything you're an ASADA mole".

Understood.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Nonsense. We had a club wide injection program for which there are no records, was no oversight and to this day has not been explained in full. A report issued by the club itself described the whole thing as a "pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged or documented within the Club".

We stuffed up in ways that should NEVER happen at a football club. We are not owed compensation in any way.

couldn't agree more. Absolute best case scenario is that our football club was catastrophically inept. When that's you're best case it ain't great

 

[Despair]

Ah we're back to the "if you don't view us as innocent of everything you're an ASADA mole".

Understood.

I'm not debating whether we are guilty or innocent, I'm debating that the punishment we received was disproportionate to the governance offence(s)

An AFL survey determined that 11 other clubs ran programs with "medium or high levels of supplement use" without a single point of accountability where document of player supplementation was 'inadequate'

Where was their punishment/investigation?

 

[ManWithNoName]

I'm not debating whether we are guilty or innocent, I'm debating that the punishment we received was disproportionate to the governance offence(s)

An AFL survey determined that 11 other clubs ran programs with "medium or high levels of supplement use" without a single point of accountability where document of player supplementation was 'inadequate'

Where was their punishment/investigation?

We have 34 players who were injected on mass by order of the club, and at the club. If these 34 players ask what they were injected with we have to tell them "we don't know".

Did other clubs * up to that extent? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they didn't. I'm also not especially interested. Our club did things that deserved the level of punishment it received.

 

[carnthedons]

We have 34 players who were injected on mass by order of the club, and at the club. If these 34 players ask what they were injected with we have to tell them "we don't know".

Did other clubs **** up to that extent? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they didn't. I'm also not especially interested. Our club did things that deserved the level of punishment it received.

Exactly, although I'm a little closer to the we're innocent line than you are.

On your 2nd point, wholeheartedly agree. Whether other clubs ****ed up too should be immaterial and is only brought up because of the partisan nature of the competition we operate in. In the private sector, PWC for instance wouldn't be less penalised if they committed tax fraud etc because EY also did (just generic companies chosen).

 

[ManWithNoName]

Exactly, although I'm a little closer to the we're innocent line than you are.

On your 2nd point, wholeheartedly agree. Whether other clubs stuffed up too should be immaterial and is only brought up because of the partisan nature of the competition we operate in. In the private sector, PWC for instance wouldn't be less penalised if they committed tax fraud etc because EY also did (just generic companies chosen).

I dunno if we gave them anything illegal or not. But the fact we don't know what they were injected with is bad enough.

 

[carnthedons]

I dunno if we gave them anything illegal or not. But the fact we don't know what they were injected with is bad enough.

I think it's more along the lines of we're not 100% sure they got what we signed up for but point taken.

 

[efcboy]

Why did the club hire Neil Craig and Mark Neeld? They presided over a supplements program at Melbourne run by Dank that included AOD9604 and thymosin...additionally Neil Craig presided over a regime at the crows that saw colostrum amongst other controversial supplements admistered...

It's almost like the AFL coverup operation convinced Paul Little to hire these guys and he agreed....

 

[ManWithNoName]

Why did the club hire Neil Craig and Mark Neeld? They presided over a supplements program at Melbourne run by Dank that included AOD9604 and thymosin...additionally Neil Craig presided over a regime at the crows that saw colostrum amongst other controversial supplements admistered...

It's almost like the AFL coverup operation convinced Paul Little to hire these guys and he agreed....

Neeld's the only coach earning his pay this year.

 

[efcboy]

Neeld's the only coach earning his pay this year.

Paul Corrigan has done the bulk of development coaching not Neeld

 

[Fear Boner]

Neeld's the only coach earning his pay this year.

I'd like to know how ...

 

[hurlygurdy]

Those were for governance issues and bringing the game in disrepute. Club accepted their faults and took the penalty. Doesn't have anything to do with the outcome of the saga.

Utter, utter drivel. Demonstrating a horrifying lack of comprehension of what happened and why. With supporters voicing opinions like this, how can we expect anyone else to understand the situation? We are damned not only by the the abuse of process but also by the complexity of comprehending the case. With all the misdirection thrown up by ASADA and the AFL, people literally can't see stinking pile of s**t for what it really is.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Utter, utter drivel. Demonstrating a horrifying lack of comprehension of what happened and why. With supporters voicing opinions like this, how can we expect anyone else to understand the situation? We are damned not only by the the abuse of process but also by the complexity of comprehending the case. With all the misdirection thrown up by ASADA and the AFL, people literally can't see stinking pile of s**t for what it really is.

What's your point exactly? Are you saying we didn't deserve to be penalised?

 

[efcboy]

What's your point exactly? Are you saying we didn't deserve to be penalised?

The AFL was guessing when handing down those penalties - there was no evidence of cheating and the afl tribunal cleared EFC of cheating (no banned substances given to players).

A penalty in keeping with governance should have been a fine only and at least 10 other clubs should have been penalised on a sliding scale depending on level of incompetence.

Losing draft picks should only be applicable for cheating (ie banned substances being given).

Finals being stripped is complete madness - 3 years on no definitive proof of cheating. The afl guessed and handed down the harshest penalty in history on an assumption. This itself is poor governance.

No penalties should have been handed down until ASADA completed their investigation. The afl and ASADA are the reason this has dragged on 3 yrs and EFC continue to be punished for the incompetence of afl and ASADA.

 

[ManWithNoName]

The AFL was guessing when handing down those penalties - there was no evidence of cheating and the afl tribunal cleared EFC of cheating (no banned substances given to players).

A penalty in keeping with governance should have been a fine only and at least 10 other clubs should have been penalised on a sliding scale depending on level of incompetence.

Losing draft picks should only be applicable for cheating (ie banned substances being given).

Finals being stripped is complete madness - 3 years on no definitive proof of cheating. The afl guessed and handed down the harshest penalty in history on an assumption. This itself is poor governance.

No penalties should have been handed down until ASADA completed their investigation. The afl and ASADA are the reason this has dragged on 3 yrs and EFC continue to be punished for the incompetence of afl and ASADA.

We weren't penalised by the AFL for cheating with illegal drugs. We were penalised for running a completely off the rails, out of control, undocumented club wide injection program. With players receiving ~50 injections each. And we have no documentation or idea what they were injected with. We told these players "this is for the best, trust us" and we have completely and utterly ****ed them in every way. We've subjected them to 3 years of their careers being in jepoardy, of being labelled drug cheats, of having their integrity questioned and their joy of the game taken away. And that overhanging wonder of what they were given. Imagine wanting to play football and coming out of it with a SC notice over your head and the club telling you they'll be giving you health checks every now and then for the ongoing future just to make sure you're okay. Seriously, what the * is that? How does that happen?

I don't care that ASADA could've done it quicker, or the media pressure should've been less. You know what should've happened? Our club should've acted like a professional football club and not like an alley in Frankston. NONE of this happens if our club didn't * up in every single way possible, to an extent never seen before in our game. Salary cap cheating is nothing compared to this. "We paid you a bit more than we should have" compared to "We don't know what we injected you with oh and you might be banned for 2 years". I know which one I'd prefer as a player, or a supporter.

You might think the club didn't screw up that badly. Me? I'm ashamed of what our club did. I've moved on now for the most part because it's in the past and I, as a supporter, have that luxury. But I will not defend our club in any way for what we did, nor will I claim our penalties were over the top. We got what we deserved.

 

[Despair]

We weren't penalised by the AFL for cheating with illegal drugs. We were penalised for running a completely off the rails, out of control, undocumented club wide injection program. With players receiving ~50 injections each. And we have no documentation or idea what they were injected with. We told these players "this is for the best, trust us" and we have completely and utterly stuffed them in every way. We've subjected them to 3 years of their careers being in jepoardy, of being labelled drug cheats, of having their integrity questioned and their joy of the game taken away. And that overhanging wonder of what they were given. Imagine wanting to play football and coming out of it with a SC notice over your head and the club telling you they'll be giving you health checks every now and then for the ongoing future just to make sure you're okay. Seriously, what the **** is that? How does that happen?

I don't care that ASADA could've done it quicker, or the media pressure should've been less. You know what should've happened? Our club should've acted like a professional football club and not like an alley in Frankston. NONE of this happens if our club didn't **** up in every single way possible, to an extent never seen before in our game. Salary cap cheating is nothing compared to this. "We paid you a bit more than we should have" compared to "We don't know what we injected you with oh and you might be banned for 2 years". I know which one I'd prefer as a player, or a supporter.

You might think the club didn't screw up that badly. Me? I'm ashamed of what our club did. I've moved on now for the most part because it's in the past and I, as a supporter, have that luxury. But I will not defend our club in any way for what we did, nor will I claim our penalties were over the top. We got what we deserved.

Nobody is defending what we did, we've obviously ****ed up here. But the AFL s**t themselves as finals were coming up and due process was still occurring. It would have been to farcical if we participated in finals whilst being drug cheats.

Turns out that an AFL tribunal couldn't find comfortable satisfaction that doping offenses actually occurred now their original decision (to remove us from finals) is even more farcical than if they had of let us play.

The AFL panicked and just like every other issue that comes their way they apply 'policy on the run' and end up making themselves look inept in the process (ie. Swans Trade Ban)

One thing is for sure - we were removed from the 2013 finals because the AFL were convinced that we had drug-cheated. They were forecasting a guilty verdict and would not run the risk of a team with an * next to it's name knocking another team out of the finals.

 

[efcboy]

We weren't penalised by the AFL for cheating with illegal drugs. We were penalised for running a completely off the rails, out of control, undocumented club wide injection program. With players receiving ~50 injections each. And we have no documentation or idea what they were injected with. We told these players "this is for the best, trust us" and we have completely and utterly stuffed them in every way. We've subjected them to 3 years of their careers being in jepoardy, of being labelled drug cheats, of having their integrity questioned and their joy of the game taken away. And that overhanging wonder of what they were given. Imagine wanting to play football and coming out of it with a SC notice over your head and the club telling you they'll be giving you health checks every now and then for the ongoing future just to make sure you're okay. Seriously, what the **** is that? How does that happen?

I don't care that ASADA could've done it quicker, or the media pressure should've been less. You know what should've happened? Our club should've acted like a professional football club and not like an alley in Frankston. NONE of this happens if our club didn't **** up in every single way possible, to an extent never seen before in our game. Salary cap cheating is nothing compared to this. "We paid you a bit more than we should have" compared to "We don't know what we injected you with oh and you might be banned for 2 years". I know which one I'd prefer as a player, or a supporter.

You might think the club didn't screw up that badly. Me? I'm ashamed of what our club did. I've moved on now for the most part because it's in the past and I, as a supporter, have that luxury. But I will not defend our club in any way for what we did, nor will I claim our penalties were over the top. We got what we deserved.

This is a massive rant and an over reaction. Every mug on the street wants to talk about Essendons poor governance blah blah blah. 50 injections? So what - nothing wrong with injections or amount of injections. Nick Riewoldt would be having around 400+ injections. It's what is in the syringe that counts - Nothing else - to date the afl and ASADA cannot prove that anything banned or harmful was given to players. They beated the drum about aod9604 for 12 months or more before giving it the all clear... The afl, ASADA and Switkowski (urged on by Evans and demetriou) exaggerated the governance issue. Hawthorn had a far more systematic injection program (swept under carpet), so did Collingwood, west coast and others. Does this make it right? No but all these people saying how bad EFC were get real. I work in healthcare and majority of public and private hospitals are poorly managed. Understaffed, overworked nurses, poor handovers, lack of documentation and nurses asking patients what drugs they need is an every day event. I've been on both sides of the equation - patient, relative of patient, healthcare professional and currently medical goods supplier. For the general community to throw the book at Essendon and in particular Hird is a joke. I've worked at many of the major hospitals, major medical device manufacturers/distributors and seen poor management and governance across the board.

The AFL set the standards or lack thereof. They had a compliance program across the competition. Across the competition prior to 2013 not one team complied with that program and the afl did nothing. Every club and player were supposed to document and submit to the afl what they were administered with. Not one club complied with this. Brett Clothier and Peter Harcourt were asleep as were their managers. What do they - pin it on one club to save their own hides. The most poorly governed organisation in all of this was actually the afl - the hypocrisy of them to issue the governance penalty is actually comical.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Nobody is defending what we did, we've obviously stuffed up here. But the AFL s**t themselves as finals were coming up and due process was still occurring. It would have been to farcical if we participated in finals whilst being drug cheats.

Turns out that an AFL tribunal couldn't find comfortable satisfaction that doping offenses actually occurred now their original decision (to remove us from finals) is even more farcical than if they had of let us play.

The AFL panicked and just like every other issue that comes their way they apply 'policy on the run' and end up making themselves look inept in the process (ie. Swans Trade Ban)

One thing is for sure - we were removed from the 2013 finals because the AFL were convinced that we had drug-cheated. They were forecasting a guilty verdict and would not run the risk of a team with an * next to it's name knocking another team out of the finals.

This is a massive rant and an over reaction. Every mug on the street wants to talk about Essendons poor governance blah blah blah. 50 injections? So what - nothing wrong with injections or amount of injections. Nick Riewoldt would be having around 400+ injections. It's what is in the syringe that counts - Nothing else - to date the afl and ASADA cannot prove that anything banned or harmful was given to players. They beated the drum about aod9604 for 12 months or more before giving it the all clear... The afl, ASADA and Switkowski (urged on by Evans and demetriou) exaggerated the governance issue. Hawthorn had a far more systematic injection program (swept under carpet), so did Collingwood, west coast and others. Does this make it right? No but all these people saying how bad EFC were get real. I work in healthcare and majority of public and private hospitals are poorly managed. Understaffed, overworked nurses, poor handovers, lack of documentation and nurses asking patients what drugs they need is an every day event. I've been on both sides of the equation - patient, relative of patient, healthcare professional and currently medical goods supplier. For the general community to throw the book at Essendon and in particular Hird is a joke. I've worked at many of the major hospitals, major medical device manufacturers/distributors and seen poor management and governance across the board.

The AFL set the standards or lack thereof. They had a compliance program across the completion. Across the competition prior to 2013 not one team complied with that program and the afl did nothing. Every club and player were supposed to document and submit to the afl what they were administered with. Not one club complied with this. Brett Clothier and Peter Harcourt were asleep as were their managers. What do they - pin it on one club to save their own hides. The most poorly governed organisation in all of this was actually the afl - the hypocrisy of them to issue the governance penalty is actually comical.

If you're both okay with everything that happened at our club during that period as long as nothing illegal was taken, then full power to you. But I'm not. And I assure you I'm not the only one.

 

[Despair]

If you're both okay with everything that happened at our club during that period as long as nothing illegal was taken, then full power to you. But I'm not. And I assure you I'm not the only one.

Where did I say I was okay with it?

Just because I believe the punishments are disproportionate to the offense, doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic toward the players.

Infact, part of the reason I'm mad about it is because the players deserved to play in the finals after everything they've been through.

 

[yaco55]

The key issue is penalties direct and indirect,are way out of PROPORTION for the crime or alleged crime. It is a joke that this case will drag on for three years - But no-one in the media will is willing to discuss the failings of the WADA code.

Society is fantastic at avoiding the core issues - Dustin Martin is fined 2000 for an offensive gesture towards the crowd - Of course the key issue is the group of Collingwood supporters who hurled abuse at Martin and other Richmond players - Not one word from the media about this unacceptable behavior, nothing done by Venue management to eject these supporters - Society continues to accept uncouth behaviour by spectators. at events

 

[efcboy]

An occupational health concern does not equal a competitive advantage. This is what EFC issue currently is - an occupational health concern. No proof of a competitive advantage being given. Therefore in my opinion only a fine was applicable until there was more conclusive proof of any wrongdoing that provided a competitive advantage.

Salary cap cheating provided a competitive advantage (higher quality of players on list in theory) thus punishing by removing draft picks applicable.

Tanking provided better draft picks - the clubs accused of tanking received no penalty commensurate with gaining a competitive advantage.

 

[DapperJong]

If you're both okay with everything that happened at our club during that period as long as nothing illegal was taken, then full power to you. But I'm not. And I assure you I'm not the only one.

I'm only not ok with it because we got caught.