Moved Thread #1: Majak Daw -

[Saintly31]

Of course not. No one is above the law (except the German in lethal weapon 2).

I don't understand how it is such a no go area to form an opinion on it. I get what LGK is saying and I tend to lean that way too. Doesn't mean we are going out of our way to tarnish her name. Athletes are prime targets for opportunists so it is not out of the question. If Majak is found guilty he will be hounded down by the public. If it comes out that she has lied than so should she.

It's not a no go area. I just don't accept at all that Majak becomes the victim if he is exonerated.

There is a very big difference between a woman who has to suffer the physical and mental trauma of a rape, compared to being known as the Sudanese footballer that was found not guilty of sex charges and public stigma attached. It is unfortunate yes, but certainly not the victim of the crime.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

Nah, I don't agree.

His name will be degraded regardless of the outcome I suspect which is an unfortunate part of our legal process and trial by media, but that doesn't mean he is the victim.

It does if he is innocent. Even if he is proven to be 100% innocent there will be those who will suggest she was paid off etc, thus bringing unfair scrutiny to Majak. How does that not make him a victim?

 

[Saintly31]

It does if he is innocent. Even if he is proven to be 100% innocent there will be those who will suggest she was paid off etc, thus bringing unfair scrutiny to Majak. How does that not make him a victim?

That is no different to any other person who is found not guilty of a crime whether it be family members, friends or general public.

I don't agree it makes them a victim (which suggests an intention to make him so and people reaching their own conclusions) rather it's just the unfortunate fallout of any criminal case.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

It's not a no go area. I just don't accept at all that Majak becomes the victim if he is exonerated.

There is a very big difference between a woman who has to suffer the physical and mental trauma of a rape, compared to being known as the Sudanese footballer that was found not guilty of sex charges and public stigma attached. It is unfortunate yes, but certainly not the victim of the crime.

Of course, obviously both carry different weighting. Majak is different to you or I though. A role model to many playing in the nations biggest sport...if innocent,that makes him a victim. A lie that could cost him a career and a lot of money, not to mention the emotional weight.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

That is no different to any other person who is found not guilty of a crime whether it be family members, friends or general public.

I don't agree it makes them a victim (which suggests an intention to make him so and people reaching their own conclusions) rather it's just the unfortunate fallout of any criminal case.

It's not an assault charge though. I can only think of one charge that is worse than being accused of rape. Therefore it isn't any case.

I think it is different. Majak has more on the line than the average joe. He is in the public eye and public perception will shape his career for the worse regardless of the result.

 

[Saintly31]

Of course, obviously both carry different weighting. Majak is different to you or I though. A role model to many playing in the nations biggest sport...if innocent,that makes him a victim. A lie that could cost him a career and a lot of money, not to mention the emotional weight.

Why if he is found innocent mean the girl is automatically lying? That is a pretty big assumption and far from accurate in plenty of cases.

 

[Saintly31]

It's not an assault charge though. I can only think of one charge that is worse than being accused of rape. Therefore it isn't any case.

I think it is different. Majak has more on the line than the average joe. He is in the public eye and public perception will shape his career for the worse regardless of the result.

Yes of course he is but I still don't think that equates to being a victim of rape.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

Why if he is found innocent mean the girl is automatically lying? That is a pretty big assumption.

As I've said previously, if found to be 100% innocent. Not lack of evidence innocent. Which unless she admits to lying or if Majak wasn't in the country at the time will never happen.

If people can assume guilt, people can also assume she is lying (based on timing etc). People can be monsters so it's not that far fetched.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

Yes of course he is but I still don't think that equates to being a victim of rape.

It doesn't hence why I said this:

Of course, obviously both carry different weighting. Majak is different to you or I though. A role model to many playing in the nations biggest sport...if innocent,that makes him a victim. A lie that could cost him a career and a lot of money, not to mention the emotional weight.

 

[Saintly31]

It doesn't hence why I said this:

Yeah but that doesn't mean a victim. Very unfairly treated due to the system possibly yes, victim no.

 

[Saintly31]

As I've said previously, if found to be 100% innocent. Not lack of evidence innocent. Which unless she admits to lying or if Majak wasn't in the country at the time will never happen.

If people can assume guilt, people can also assume she is lying (based on timing etc). People can be monsters so it's not that far fetched.

Nah, lots of cases don't get over the line even with substantial evidence due to the burden of proof. It doesn't mean anyone is lying or it didn't happen, just couldn't be substantiated. The case wouldn't have got this far based on your examples - something happened, we just don't know exactly what yet.

If it is thrown out then Majak will have enough support around him not be treated as a monster if handled correctly. If people do think that despite proven innocent then they are the ones with the problem.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

Nah, lots of cases don't get over the line even with substantial evidence due to the burden of proof. It doesn't mean anyone is lying or it didn't happen, just couldn't be substantiated. The case wouldn't have got this far based on your examples - something happened, we just don't know exactly what yet.

If it is thrown out then Majak will have enough support around him not be treated as a monster if handled correctly. If people do think that despite proven innocent then they are the ones with the problem.

Yeah from family and friends. Unfortunately his career off the field is impacted by the public.

Something happened? We don't know that. As far as we've been told it's a girl and her friend's story vs Majak's.

Yeah but that doesn't mean a victim. Very unfairly treated due to the system possibly yes, victim no.

If it comes to light that she and her friend has lied how is he not a victim?

 

[Flawed Genius]

If it comes to light that she and her friend has lied how is he not a victim?

I'm trying to understand both yours and Saintly's points but this is where I keep getting stuck. What would Maj be a victim of?

 

[Saintly31]

Yeah from family and friends. Unfortunately his career off the field is impacted by the public.

Something happened? We don't know that. As far as we've been told it's a girl and her friend's story vs Majak's.

If it comes to light that she and her friend has lied how is he not a victim?

No. The prosecution wouldn't charge unless something (i'm not suggesting rape) has happened and clearly have evidence to suggest that whether location, DNA, msgs, witnesses or whatever. Very naïve to think otherwise as every second male would be in court as we speak with aggrieved exes making claims etc.

Why are you assuming she is lying? Is that bias due to Majak being a Nth player? If she is it will be found out in court and he will be exonerated. Majak is on bail, living his life normally until we find out the result. No doubt we as a club will support him.

So yeah, the victim claims are just nonsense to me. Let the case run it's course without jumping to conclusions on what might happen or what people are thinking etc.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

I'm trying to understand both yours and Saintly's points but this is where I keep getting stuck. What would Maj be a victim of?

He would be a victim of being targeted due to status (athlete, ambassador etc). A victim suffers emotionally...if he is innocent has Majak not suffered emotionally?

 

[Flawed Genius]

He would be a victim of being targeted due to status (athlete, ambassador etc). A victim suffers emotionally...if he is innocent has Majak not suffered emotionally?

I disagree with the assertion that Maj had been targeted due to status. Just because he is on an AFL list is not the sole reason this young woman has come forward, as people seem to assume. In my opinion, of course.

We can't speak to the psychology of the victim and why she has come forward. There just is no way to know.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

No. The prosecution wouldn't charge unless something (i'm not suggesting rape) has happened. Very naïve to think otherwise otherwise every second male would be in court as we speak with aggrieved exes making claims etc.

Why are you assuming she is lying? Is that boas due to Majak being a Nth player? If she is it will be found out in court and he will be exonerated. Majak is on bail, living his life normally until we find out the result. No doubt we as a club will support him.

Until then all the rest of this victim stuff is just nonsense to me.

No. I made it clear above that it shouldn't be such a touchy area to assume one is capable of lying about this. It was a hypothetical. As soon as someone suggests such a thing they are immediately hounded in this thread and others. I think it is ridiculous that it can't be brought up as a possibility.

Is Majak living a normal life? So he's living the same life as he was before the trial came to light? I don't think so. As an AFL ambassador I guarantee he wouldn't be getting as many sponsorship offers, interviews etc because people would not want to touch him with a 10 foot pole until all this is over. Last year of his contract = important time in his football career...make or break season. Instead he has this hanging over his head.

He deserves every bit of it if found guilty but I find it surprising that people cannot see how this is impacting Majak...but I forgot we can't talk about it because we are not allowed to assume someone is lying.

I am neutral on this issue. I don't know the facts, I'm just struggling to see how others don't see an issue in the other side

 

[Saintly31]

I know what you are trying to say Brett33. I just don't agree with it.

We have a criminal process in place and as it stands this case is no different to thousands of others that include both high and low profile people.

Majak is going through this process and being afforded all the support available to him.

Is it ideal for him to be having to face these charges, of course not, but that to me is irrelevant. Applying the law appropriately is more important than the individuals self interest.

If we accept your stance, no high profile person would ever have to face charges due to the presumptions you are relying upon. That if found not guilty it is automatically unfair and inappropriate due to (ignorant) public opinion being swayed and any other potentially negative fallout.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

I disagree with the assertion that Maj had been targeted due to status. Just because he is on an AFL list is not the sole reason this young woman has come forward, as people seem to assume. In my opinion, of course.

We can't speak to the psychology of the victim and why she has come forward. There just is no way to know.

I'm not saying he was targeted, i was using it as an example in this instance. For all I know he could have bullied her incessantly throughout high school and it's left her will a chip on her shoulder. Could be countless other reasons... but you're right, there is no way of knowing.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

No. I made it clear above that it shouldn't be such a touchy area to assume one is capable of lying about this. It was a hypothetical. As soon as someone suggests such a thing they are immediately hounded in this thread and others. I think it is ridiculous that it can't be brought up as a possibility.

Is Majak living a normal life? So he's living the same life as he was before the trial came to light? I don't think so. As an AFL ambassador I guarantee he wouldn't be getting as many sponsorship offers, interviews etc because people would not want to touch him with a 10 foot pole until all this is over. Last year of his contract = important time in his football career...make or break season. Instead he has this hanging over his head.

He deserves every bit of it if found guilty but I find it surprising that people cannot see how this is impacting Majak...but I forgot we can't talk about it because we are not allowed to assume someone is lying.

I am neutral on this issue. I don't know the facts, I'm just struggling to see how others don't see an issue in the other side

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

I know what you are trying to say Brett33. I just don't agree with it.

We have a criminal process in place and as it stands this case is no different to thousands of others that include both high and low profile people.

Majak is going through this process and being afforded all the support available to him.

Is it ideal for him to be having to face these charges, no, but that to me is irrelevant as applying the law is more important than the individuals self interest.

If you take your stance, no high profile person would ever have to face charges due to the presumptions you are relying upon that if found not guilty it is automatically unfair and inappropriate due to (ignorant) public opinion potentially being swayed.

Without doubt Saintly31, everything you've said is correct. I do not profess to knowing anything about the judicial system (hence why I don't even try in that regard).

I think we are debating over separate issues (most likely because my ability to grasp the English language is very low).

My grievance stems from those who don't look at Majak's position in all this. Simply put, I think Majak's off field career is ruined regardless of the outcome. And if he is innocent I think it is unfair...but as you've stated, what can you do?!

 

[Saintly31]

Ha......@Brett33 you make excellent points it's just a different viewpoint and one I can understand.

 

[Flawed Genius]

No. I made it clear above that it shouldn't be such a touchy area to assume one is capable of lying about this. It was a hypothetical. As soon as someone suggests such a thing they are immediately hounded in this thread and others. I think it is ridiculous that it can't be brought up as a possibility.

Is Majak living a normal life? So he's living the same life as he was before the trial came to light? I don't think so. As an AFL ambassador I guarantee he wouldn't be getting as many sponsorship offers, interviews etc because people would not want to touch him with a 10 foot pole until all this is over. Last year of his contract = important time in his football career...make or break season. Instead he has this hanging over his head.

He deserves every bit of it if found guilty but I find it surprising that people cannot see how this is impacting Majak...but I forgot we can't talk about it because we are not allowed to assume someone is lying.

I am neutral on this issue. I don't know the facts, I'm just struggling to see how others don't see an issue in the other side

Of course the incident impacts Majak. I would not know, but being the subject of a criminal investigation where the alleged incident is one of the worst crimes you can perpetrate against someone else, and it being in the spotlight, would doubtless affect someone's psyche or their mental state. Your points about it being the last year of Maj's contract, and it being a make-or-break season, along with his recovery from a significant injury, all ring true. But what we fail to understand about victims of sexual assault in this country and indeed in this world is that the affects of such a crime are more far-reaching than someone who hasn't suffered it can possibly imagine.

Personally, if Majak is found guilty of the alleged incident, I believe there is no way he can stay on the list, nor would I want him to. I would want him punished as the law sees fit. If he is found guilty, I personally don't care how it impacts him, because in my view, the victim's suffering - both emotionally, physically, mentally, psychologically - far outweighs Maj's.

 

[naturally north]

Nup. Currie > daw When it comes to rucking duties. Daw can't last a full game at FF let alone a game in the ruck

I hear and read that a lot, I wonder if Maj plodded through a game like many other lumbering giants would that make any difference?

I can't see Currie hunting and chasing down Scotty Mc let alone a Burgoyne.

Just how I see it.

 

[Higgins2Waite]

Of course the incident impacts Majak. I would not know, but being the subject of a criminal investigation where the alleged incident is one of the worst crimes you can perpetrate against someone else, and it being in the spotlight, would doubtless affect someone's psyche or their mental state. Your points about it being the last year of Maj's contract, and it being a make-or-break season, along with his recovery from a significant injury, all ring true. But what we fail to understand about victims of sexual assault in this country and indeed in this world is that the affects of such a crime are more far-reaching than someone who hasn't suffered it can possibly imagine.

Personally, if Majak is found guilty of the alleged incident, I believe there is no way he can stay on the list, nor would I want him to. I would want him punished as the law sees fit. If he is found guilty, I personally don't care how it impacts him, because in my view, the victim's suffering - both emotionally, physically, mentally, psychologically - far outweighs Maj's.

Without doubt. If guilty I wouldn't give a stuff if he was marched to town square and had his willy lobbed off in front of everyone. I wouldn't want him anywhere near North either.

Yes we can only imagine the suffering a victim of sexual assault goes through. Of course that outweighs anything Majak would be going through.
My point was a hypothetical situation of Majak being innocent and what he would be dealing with.