List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Michael Jezz]

It’s all good and well suggesting bulk changes but you have to have adequate replacements. Recruiting a dozen 18 year olds is not going to fix anything. I see a max of 12 list changes and that’s if we lose a few of Williams, McGovern, TDK, Martin, if not it will probably be between 8-10 in line with most other clubs.

2-4 recruits from other clubs
3-5 at the national draft
2-4 at the rookie draft/SSP

As long as these moves target our weaknesses we should be okay.

I can't pinpoint a precise amount of list changes. Probably 10+. What I do know is we are at least 10 good players short.There is not a choice other than to back our recruiting team and they are capable. A new coach will not make a difference to a group who can not kick and voss is our 3rd senior coach in 4 and half seasons

 

[jj1978]

This Harley Reid kid looks like he is enjoying wearing Navy Blue, perhaps we need to schedule a drink driving incident to scare a few clubs off.

Made a similar comment the other week along the lines of...

Charlie: "Why you looking so glum?"
Reid: "Don't wanna play for the wees and poohs!"
Charlie: "No problem"
Reid: "What do you mean?"
Charlie: "It's a little game I like to call, don't drink and drive... because that's just stupid... just refuse to take the random breath test"

 

[btdg]

Curious - what are the reasons people think TDK would make a good back. Is it just that his brother is a gun KPD?

Don't think TDK is consistent enough to be a defender in my view.

The path from 'failed forward' to 'superstar defender' is a well trodden one, followed even at our own club in recent years by Mitch McGovern and Liam Jones.

Being a defender simplifies the game and lets you sit behind the ball. You can 'win' as a defender just be making a contest and punching the ball the right direction (out of trouble) and taking a mark is a bonus. Goal-kicking is no longer a concern (one less thing to train) and you also likely spend less time as a designated ruck (a lot less to train). Your opponent tends to take you to the ball and there is less pressure to make play = less injury risk.

All up, it is an easier gig. If you are athletic, good in the air, and struggling to read the play and get involved up forward it's a simple switch to make.

It also helps that his brother, who is 1cm taller, has also successfully switched and was tearing up the league last year, while TDK is still trading on 'potential'.

This week would also make sense against a Bulldogs team that potentially plays Naughton, Darcy and Lobb up forward: that's three huge guys and an extra really big defender seems sensible.

 

[The Bighouse]

Good interview with Cook, such a professional operator. Just scroll to the bottom for the full interview - well worth a listen.

Brian Cook on Carlton's list management 'issue' and the push to play more at the MCG

Carlton CEO Brian Cook admits the Blues have an “issue” with list management that needs to be addressed. He also addressed Tom De Koning’s future on 3AW Football before Carlton’s clash with Brisbane on Friday night. Press PLAY below to hear Cook on Carlton’s list Cook also told 3AW Football the...

www.3aw.com.au

Interesting that he was looking at a 100 game contract as CEO, was under the impression it was only a 3yr sign on but sounds like 4yrs with succession planning kicking off sometime next year.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Interesting that he was looking at a 100 game contract as CEO, was under the impression it was only a 3yr sign on but sounds like 4yrs with succession planning kicking off sometime next year.

Listening to that interview with Cookie, my reading of the answer to the TDK question was - we are not going to overpay him and if he want's to stay, he can.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I can't pinpoint a precise amount of list changes. Probably 10+. What I do know is we are at least 10 good players short.There is not a choice other than to back our recruiting team and they are capable. A new coach will not make a difference to a group who can not kick and voss is our 3rd senior coach in 4 and half seasons

Better to make those changes over two years to maximise the quality of the replacements.

Cut 8 or so this year. Bring in 2 proven AFL-grade players from other clubs, 2-3 draftees that would be expected to make the grade, and 3-4 speculative draft/rookie/SSP picks.

Do it all again next season.

Over two years there's your 8-10 long-term players that meet the requirements for modern footy (good runners, good users...footballers). Plus a handful of speculative later picks that will probably just cycle the list a bit and maybe unearth a rough diamond.

2023 OUT - Marchbank (del), Cuningham (del), Curnow (ret), Honey (del/tr), Fogarty (del/tr), Plowman (del/tr), Dow (tr), Philp (del)
2023 IN - target a free agent, mature age trade-in, 3 picks inside 30, plus another handful of late picks or rookies

2024 OUT - Martin, LOB, Mirkov, Carroll, some of the rookies from 2023 (time for these guys to show something, but on current trajectory I think they're on borrowed time with their contracts expiring next year)
2024 IN - free agent, mature age trade-in, Campos x2, plus another handful of late picks or rookies

That's without allowing for trading out guys like TDK, Gov, Kennedy, Fisher etc. pending interest from other clubs. Harder to speculate on that until later in the year. Would like to move on one or two of them over the next two years as well, but it's subject to their being enough interest and enough compensation coming back our way to make it worthwhile...not to mention those players wanting to go.

It's not a rebuild, it's just a concerted effort to cycle out the bottom third of the list over two off-seasons - and doing what we seem to have struggled to do in recent years, which is cut the cord on players that have teased without ever really delivering.

 

[Garters]

We don't need any sort of rebuild. Our list is fine. Our coaches need to develop a sustainable game plan and system for the boys to play out each week.

Big gaps in the list. Along way from fine. Some real topend talent but a lot of significant shortcomings. HFF's, outside Mids, small fwds, upgrading some existing talent that does not seem to have the want / hard edge. You can always upgrade a list.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

The path from 'failed forward' to 'superstar defender' is a well trodden one, followed even at our own club in recent years by Mitch McGovern and Liam Jones.

Being a defender simplifies the game and lets you sit behind the ball. You can 'win' as a defender just be making a contest and punching the ball the right direction (out of trouble) and taking a mark is a bonus. Goal-kicking is no longer a concern (one less thing to train) and you also likely spend less time as a designated ruck (a lot less to train). Your opponent tends to take you to the ball and there is less pressure to make play = less injury risk.

All up, it is an easier gig. If you are athletic, good in the air, and struggling to read the play and get involved up forward it's a simple switch to make.

It also helps that his brother, who is 1cm taller, has also successfully switched and was tearing up the league last year, while TDK is still trading on 'potential'.

This week would also make sense against a Bulldogs team that potentially plays Naughton, Darcy and Lobb up forward: that's three huge guys and an extra really big defender seems sensible.

I think he should be spending all his time at CHB in the VFL learning how to play it.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Interesting that he was looking at a 100 game contract as CEO, was under the impression it was only a 3yr sign on but sounds like 4yrs with succession planning kicking off sometime next year.

This was the key takeaway from the whole interview for me. We need Brian hanging around beyond the end of next year. This club needs strong, experienced leadership. 100 games says to me he’s going to be around for another 3.5 years. That’s good for us.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I think he should be spending all his time at CHB in the VFL learning how to play it.

Even if he doesn't turn out to be a gun key defender, it may still be beneficial for him to get some experience down there so that he could be used as a genuine tall utility. If he's not going to be an elite ruck or forward, he may as well become servicable in another role as well to make "flexibility" his thing.

 

[Jeremias]

Now is not the time to be teaching TDK an entirely new position.

He likely wouldn't want it either, being a contract year and a potentially big one at that.

 

[BartSimpson]

I am aware of all the things you speak of. I wouldn't cut the draftees after 1 year. Sit them on the list for 2 years on minimum wage. If you pick 6, 1 might make it (if you are lucky 2). The others get cut after their two years. Rinse and repeat.

My view is we need to constantly turn the list over as holding onto a bunch of injury prone players that never come good has not delivered.

For clarity:

1. I would have as many rookies as possible at the expense of senior list spots to allow us to hang onto people for as little time as possible
2. Nobody said anything about getting players to change clubs on a 1 year deal? I spoke about some specific free agents we should target
3. I wouldn't, but if you wanted to pay those 7 kids out at $100k each to avoid a second year, it costs one year of McGovern/Martin/Williams

So every player drafted gets 2 years to prove their worth or they are gone? I’ve read some silly stuff over the years, that nearly tops the lot.

 

[My Hat]

Well the softly softly approach doesn't seem to be working for us. It isn't a strategy until some tries it and either succeeds or fails. Moneyball was just an idea until someone tries it. Professional service firms use this exact approach with graduate intake every year and have done for decades.

Professional services firms need lots of enthusiastic but relatively low-skilled and low-cost people to do the grunt work, and relatively few expensive senior people to tell the grunts what to do. A pyramid structure makes sense for them.

A football club list that is structured like that would be wildly unbalanced. Just go back and look at how Gold Coast & GWS did in their first few years when their lists were like that.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Glossing over the part where it’s adding Papley and Himmelberg, who in my view complement Curnow better than McKay by himself. Read the thread and comprehend the intent rather than cherry pick

Um ok…
My post didn’t even reference you

However, I went back found and read your post…

I could respond to your post, but I see the thread’s allocation of laughing emoji’s have already been used up…

 

[M_I_G]

Surely someone has suggested we move honey to defence?
He's got pace, he is never going to make it as a small forward - he has to be 5th (at best) in the pecking order (amazing he is getting a game as it is).
What do we have to lose at this stage playing him in def in the VFL? Can he turn into a small lockdown def? No frills/fuss defender?

 

[Stefchook]

I wouldn't mind seeing Honey get a chance at full forward when the big boys aren't making it work. He's got real pace and can mark on the lead. Pretty good set shot.

 

[Gointocarlton]

I wouldn't mind seeing Honey get a chance at full forward when the big boys aren't making it work. He's got real pace and can mark on the lead. Pretty good set shot.

In the 1s or the 2s?

 

[Gw2_James]

We don't need any sort of rebuild. Our list is fine. Our coaches need to develop a sustainable game plan and system for the boys to play out each week.

Hope you are right. My pov, seems like we lack skills and speed, so he's making them play a slower more controlled but predictable style. We saw what happened last year when he made them play with a game style that requires skills and fast pace, we got destroyed on turnovers, and seemed like we copped so many injuries as a result. I wonder why we have lesser injuries this time around, can't be coincidence can it?

 

[DangerousD]

Listening to that interview with Cookie, my reading of the answer to the TDK question was - we are not going to overpay him and if he want's to stay, he can.

The reported deal on the table is overpaying imo

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Well with Cook clearly stating in his interview that we'll be hitting the draft quite hard over the next few years... Austin please just get us The Wiz Watson, Darcy Wilson and a mature age small forward/high half forward such as Ainsworth, Switkowski, Brent Daniels

16

Brent Daniels

Age

25

Ht

172cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.9

4star

G

0.4

3star

D

10.3

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.9

2star

T

1.9

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

9.0

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.8

4star

, Schultz, Noah Cumberland. The deeper draftees I haven't really watched enough of yet to say, but Watson, Wilson or maybe even a Colby Mckercher type from Tassie would provide instant impact for us who could come at a discount with the team on its way.





Trade TDK, Fisher, Gov... Don't think we'd miss any of them a bit, so if they can get us more picks to trade up towards some targets and free up some cap space I'd happily let them go.

Getting two picks inside the top 10-15 would be a goal for me, the top 20 in this draft is absolutely stacked from what I've watched and another couple inside the top 35-40 to replace some of the injury prone blokes and pea hearts on the list with some better suited talents for our list.

The only one I'd like us to persist with is young Philpy. Only 21 and certainly has the traits that compliment our list. Cuningham, Marchbank and Mcgovern have had close to a decade to show they can their bodies right to no avail. I think Philp would be deserving get a couple more if we're looking to keep a couple out of the long list who haven't been able to stay right.



Simply put, draft strategy is really just pace, footskills and more pace.

 

[FRUMPY]

Now is not the time to be teaching TDK an entirely new position.

He likely wouldn't want it either, being a contract year and a potentially big one at that.

spot on

 

[Bletch]

1. Trade our 2024 first round pick to Hawthorn for their 2023 2nd round pick and 2024 2nd round pick.
Why would we do this? Avoid a bid on L Camporeale prior to our 1st round pick next year, which would waste the pick.
Why would Hawks do this? To avoid a bid on McCabe Jr. this year.
2. Trade our 2024 2nd round pick, and Hawthorn's 2024 2nd round pick (from above) to Gold Coast for their two 2023 2nd round picks (tied to GWS, Adelaide). Swap our two x 2023 4th round picks for some extra 2024 points.
Why would we do this? Avoid a bid on B Camporeale prior to either 2nd round pick next year
Why would Gold Coast do this? They'll got a couple of academy kids in that range, should be happy to trade those picks out, get a few points back and a stronger 2024 hand.

Gives us 4 picks in the top 30 or so. Trades out of 2024, which suits us with a couple of father/sons coming.

If we can consolidate a couple of those second round picks into another first it would be handy.

 

[Blue__Balls]

1. Trade our 2024 first round pick to Hawthorn for their 2023 2nd round pick and 2024 2nd round pick.
Why would we do this? Avoid a bid on L Camporeale prior to our 1st round pick next year, which would waste the pick.
Why would Hawks do this? To avoid a bid on McCabe Jr. this year.
2. Trade our 2024 2nd round pick, and Hawthorn's 2024 2nd round pick (from above) to Gold Coast for their two 2023 2nd round picks (tied to GWS, Adelaide). Swap our two x 2023 4th round picks for some extra 2024 points.
Why would we do this? Avoid a bid on B Camporeale prior to either 2nd round pick next year
Why would Gold Coast do this? They'll got a couple of academy kids in that range, should be happy to trade those picks out, get a few points back and a stronger 2024 hand.

Gives us 4 picks in the top 30 or so. Trades out of 2024, which suits us with a couple of father/sons coming.

If we can consolidate a couple of those second round picks into another first it would be handy.

Can't offload our future 1st as well as all future second rounders.

Need to retain either:
- a future first rounder
or
- at least one pick in each of the remaining rounds (second, third and fourth - don't think they worry about 5th onwards)

Probably needs to be something like:

Future first for Hawthorn's 2023 and 2024 seconds.
2024 second (ours or Hawthorn's) for a 2023 second (Gold Coast hold Adelaide's and GWS', but not their own).

Go to the draft with our first, plus Hawthorn's second and one of Adelaide/GWS's second. 3 picks inside 30.

Can sit on the other future second and trade it out for a mature age player the following year if we don't want to use it at the draft (read: lose it on the Campo bid).

 

[Bletch]

Can't offload our future 1st as well as all future second rounders.

Need to retain either:
- a future first rounder
or
- at least one pick in each of the remaining rounds (second, third and fourth - don't think they worry about 5th onwards)

Probably needs to be something like:

Future first for Hawthorn's 2023 and 2024 seconds.
2024 second (ours or Hawthorn's) for a 2023 second (Gold Coast hold Adelaide's and GWS', but not their own).

Go to the draft with our first, plus Hawthorn's second and one of Adelaide/GWS's second. 3 picks inside 30.

Can sit on the other future second and trade it out for a mature age player the following year if we don't want to use it at the draft (read: lose it on the Campo bid).

Thought there was something about getting rid of that rule this year. But in any case, could probably manage a trade to get a very late second if we needed to. Even so, 3 top 30 picks would be worthwhile in this draft.

 

[goreds]

Now is not the time to be teaching TDK an entirely new position.

He likely wouldn't want it either, being a contract year and a potentially big one at that.

Need to teach him at least one position?? Haven’t seen one he’s good at yet…