List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Recruits Revisited

A lot of players look better when in form (obviously) or when we're doing well. A whole heap of St Kilda's list looked like crap last year, but have that new Ross gloss this year. With this in mind, some of the blokes we've traded in are getting unfairly maligned. Even more unfairly, I think SOS and Austin are being viewed a bit irrationally.

Let's look at the trade at the time vs where they are now.

1) McGovern - SOS/Teague special. IMO at the time a lot of us questioned the wisdom of this trade, both from a draft capital perspective and salary. McGovern had always been injury prone at the Crows and while he had been a highlight machine, he had never produced consistently and was far from an 'elite' 3rd tall. That we paid the equivalent draft capital of pick ~13 for him + a long term contract of $750k+ per year was clearly overs. The mitigating factor here was that we needed mature bodies to help out our very young list and young forwardline. We also were desperate to be seen as a 'destination club' again.

Now - he's never gotten his body right, but touch wood so far he seems to be having his best year with us as a 3rd tall defender.

2) Martin - SOS. Martin's recruit was widely celebrated as a coup. We paid ZERO draft picks for him and yes, perhaps paid an inflated contract price but he had undeniable talent and potential at the time...and it was widely hoped that he would achieve consistency at a large and professional club.

Now - disappointing. We had high hopes that he would be the missing piece to our forward line. Instead, while he's shown moments of brilliance, he's never had a consistent run of games, let alone a consistent run of GOOD games. I still think that at age 28, he could still turn it around. But I'd have this at less than 50% likelihood now. Still, I see this as costing far less than McGovern. Hes disappointed us, but the actual recruitment was fine.

3) Williams - Austin. Seen as an inflated salary, but again at ZERO draft picks that was somewhat mitigated. The fact that he has never gotten his body right with us is again disappointing. I have him as less of a fail than McGovern, but worse than Martin.

Now - at the end of the day he's a luxury to have in the backline, and not good enough as a full time mid. If fit, he's best 22.

4) Hewett - Austin. Seen as an incredibly good pickup at ~$450k/year. Was seen as the recruit of the year for Season 2022. Had a fantastic year for us.

Now - let's not sugarcoat it, he's been bad in 2023. He hurt his hand and hasn't been the same. Not sure if this is mental or if he needs rest, but him playin is actively hurting the team. At his best, he's probably in our best 15 players. At present, I'd have him behind 5 others in the midfield...yet he seems safe as houses. Still, at the end of the day he's not on a high salary and his 2022 alone is better than anything than what recruits 1-3 have ever produced. He's still a big tick.

5) Cerra - We paid a lot for him, but he was worth a lot on the open market. Probably even more. With high potential and strengths which are genuinely scarce in our team - he again, was a coup.

Now - Cez is probably leading our best and fairest in 2023. He's silky and smart. He's only getting better. Can't fault him at all this year (off field interview about finals notwithstanding lol). Big tick.

I think a lot of the frustration with these players is it seemed a lot like we were just grabbing anyone who was available that was prepared to say yes, not actually looking at our list and working out what we needed..
McGovern was recruited as a 3rd tall when we already had Charlie, Harry, Levi and a young TDK developing.
Williams was brought in to play a role he had never done for more than cameos in the middle to support Cripps, now he ends up a half back flank in a position we already have Docherty, Saad, Newman, Newnes, Plowman & now Boyd and Cowan.
Martin, made sense at the time, although he had never shown consistent good footy at GC and he has been exactly the same player at Carlton due to injury and form, its more frustrating because what we hoped Martin would become is exactly the type of player we so desperately need.
Hewett, I am less concerned about, he was brought in to replace Ed Curnow as our tagger and has proven much better than that so gets played as an inside mid which upsets the balance a bit with too many slow similar midfielders..
Cerra, okay last year but been exceptional this year.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I think a lot of the frustration with these players is it seemed a lot like we were just grabbing anyone who was available that was prepared to say yes, not actually looking at our list and working out what we needed..
McGovern was recruited as a 3rd tall when we already had Charlie, Harry, Levi and a young TDK developing.
Williams was brought in to play a role he had never done for more than cameos in the middle to support Cripps, now he ends up a half back flank in a position we already have Docherty, Saad, Newman, Newnes, Plowman & now Boyd and Cowan.
Martin, made sense at the time, although he had never shown consistent good footy at GC and he has been exactly the same player at Carlton due to injury and form, its more frustrating because what we hoped Martin would become is exactly the type of player we so desperately need.
Hewett, I am less concerned about, he was brought in to replace Ed Curnow as our tagger and has proven much better than that so gets played as an inside mid which upsets the balance a bit with too many slow similar midfielders..
Cerra, okay last year but been exceptional this year.

Martin had had 3 top 3 finishes in F & Bs at GC.

But he's been bitterly disappointing at CFC.

Staggered the Club can't get on top of his repeated soft tissue injuries.

 

[Michael Jezz]

We only have 20 players on our list that today are up to AFL level which I define as matching it in a final.
We don't have enough good players to sustain moderate success.
Teams need at least 30 good players


The list is:
JSOS, Motlop, Cerra, Kennedy, Cripps, Mckay, Mcgovern, Acres, Hollands, Docherty, Walsh, Kemp, Weitering, Hewett, CCurnow, Boyd, Cincotta, Owies, Saad, Cottrel

The rest are not upto it due to ability, injury, form, youth etc.

I would be interested on other posters opinions if they undertook the exercise

 

[katmanblue]

You guys (and gals) are all missing the obvious move to to turn our season around:

Unleash Plowman.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[bigblueboy]

We only have 20 players on our list that today are up to AFL level which I define as matching it in a final.
We don't have enough good players to sustain moderate success.
Teams need at least 30 good players


The list is:
JSOS, Motlop, Cerra, Kennedy, Cripps, Mckay, Mcgovern, Acres, Hollands, Docherty, Walsh, Kemp, Weitering, Hewett, CCurnow, Boyd, Cincotta, Owies, Saad, Cottrel

The rest are not upto it due to ability, injury, form, youth etc.

I would be interested on other posters opinions if they undertook the exercise

Most of the guys you have named have not played in a final let alone be proven in finals.
Doesn’t mean that they can’t … but this is not the most effective way of measuring our list.

 

[gbatman]

Geelong had a period where they went mad on half forwards. We need to do the same. We just don't have them. Cat's had 7 players in their team from other clubs, they butchered the top end of the draft all they way through their rebuild, they just brought in guys they needed.

We need to recruit about 3 or 4 smaller/medium forwards with the hope 1 or 2 will make it.

We need to keep our ears close to the ground for a strong bodied, quick lower set midfielder who can run and who is top level. Maybe an older player in the next few seasons.

We need to keep on the look out for a CHB if Young is not they guy and that may well be Lemmy.

Our rebuild is still going. But small forwards are top priority. Along with a coach who knows what they are doing and IMO that just has to be Betts in some way shape or form.

It's easy with us. No proper forward ruck. Small/medium forwards not up to it and no depth there. Midfield is too slow/tall. Young is too inconsistent and slow as the second tall defender. Team lacks forwards who can go into the middle and have an impact or midfielders who can drift forward and impact.

Been let down by injuries and players not coming in. Martin should be our forward mid. DeKoning should be second ruck/forward. Motlop and Fisher have been poor, Durdin has not come on. Honey has not made any progress.

 

[Kruezing]

You guys (and gals) are all missing the obvious move to to turn our season around:

Unleash Plowman.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

And the filth is just the time to do it …

 

[Michael Jezz]

Most of the guys you have named have not played in a final let alone be proven in finals.
Doesn’t mean that they can’t … but this is not the most effective way of measuring our list.

Asking whether your list is finals standards is an effective measurement if you you want a current day relative assessment. The list should be compared to good sides around the 8. The evidence is today Carlton is not up to finals standard due to losses to teams around the 8 Adelaide, Stkilda, Bulldogs.
It is pretty simple if you want to play finals enough players on your list need to be finals standard

 

[HarryFlashman]

We only have 20 players on our list that today are up to AFL level which I define as matching it in a final.
We don't have enough good players to sustain moderate success.
Teams need at least 30 good players


The list is:
JSOS, Motlop, Cerra, Kennedy, Cripps, Mckay, Mcgovern, Acres, Hollands, Docherty, Walsh, Kemp, Weitering, Hewett, CCurnow, Boyd, Cincotta, Owies, Saad, Cottrel

The rest are not upto it due to ability, injury, form, youth etc.

I would be interested on other posters opinions if they undertook the exercise

IMO you’ve gone way early on Motts (will get there but is still very much a work in progress) Cincotta (still very much unproven) & Boyd (hasnt got the runs on the board) & left out Ed (not who I want in the line up, but 100% someone who would stand up)
& like it or not Plow (has played some very good games)
The Durds are interesting so is Young - I think Sam Durds would have Young’s spot atm if he wasn’t injured & I think he might surprise once he has it.

It’s a tall ask to evaluate given how we have been playing and the current structure/system.

I’d say how many players on list we are we playing to there maximum effect, in a favored position that with a game style that highlights there best attributes - can name at least half a dozen we aren’t & some very key players

 

[gbatman]

We have too many players on our list who are seen poor AFL quality. At least by the coach. Obvious who they are, they are the ones 23 and over who the coach won't play even when spots open up. O'Brien, Fogarty, Plowman, Boyd, Honey, Dow.

We have some developing youth who could not even fill in for a game or two. Obvious who they are when you watch the reserves. There are some guys who are on our list who are a couple of levels down from VFL quality. Akuei and Mirkov. While improving are so far away still.

I think we have some good really young players on the list now but they are really raw. Binns, Cowan, Lemmy, O'Keefe.

Some guys who are in limbo. Carroll, Kemp, DeKoning.

We have too much talent held up from injuries. Martin, Williams, Marchbank, Philp.

Fortunately we don't have a lot of age coming up. Ed is the only one there really.

Our list is due for a clean out, just depends how many players we can get incoming.

IMO we have a decent core of top end talent but probably not enough, the current form of that group is terrible and a big reason we are no good. We don't have enough coming up. We have some but there needs to be more.

IMO we probably need to do things in a way similar to Geelong who brought in bucket loads of mature players from other clubs. Easier said than done. And use the draft to target quality types of players we need.

Stick some quality forwards into that side and a quicker, lower set quality midfielder and it's a good side.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Not sure if it’s a thing; but does Carlton have a no Tatts list recruitment policy?

 

[Michael Jezz]

IMO you’ve gone way early on Motts (will get there but is still very much a work in progress) Cincotta (still very much unproven) & Boyd (hasnt got the runs on the board) & left out Ed (not who I want in the line up, but 100% someone who would stand up)
& like it or not Plow (has played some very good games)
The Durds are interesting so is Young - I think Sam Durds would have Young’s spot atm if he wasn’t injured & I think he might surprise once he has it.

It’s a tall ask to evaluate given how we have been playing and the current structure/system.

I’d say how many players on list we are we playing to there maximum effect, in a favored position that with a game style that highlights there best attributes - can name at least half a dozen we aren’t & some very key players

I agree maybe we don't even have 20 players

 

[The Bighouse]

Hindsight recruiting but looking back on the 2021 draft, looks like we got our small forwards mixed up talent wise. Never enamoured with this selection, and the 2yr extension doesn’t excite with JM’s outlook for small forward capabilities, as was the recruiting purpose.
Jesse Motlop pick# 27
Paul Curtis pick# 35
Arty Jones pick# 43

 

[The Bighouse]

Not sure if it’s a thing; but does Carlton have a no Tatts list recruitment policy?

Zac Williams.

 

[Jeremias]

Hindsight recruiting but looking back on the 2021 draft, looks like we got our small forwards mixed up talent wise. Never enamoured with this selection, and the 2yr extension doesn’t excite with JM’s outlook for small forward capabilities, as was the recruiting purpose.
Jesse Motlop pick# 27
Paul Curtis pick# 35
Arty Jones pick# 43

Way too early for this, and I don't think it's correct either.

Motlop is down on form and confidence but is 19 and showed some terrific signs last year. I'm confident he'll come good.

Curtis and Jones haven't exactly done much either.

 

[Stefchook]

Always easier looking good when your side is playing well.

 

[DangerousD]

Not true. If we trade them their original salary would not get included in our cap. That would make 0 sense.

If we trade them they would need to agree on a salary with the new club. Only if the new club is unwilling to match their current wages and the player is unwilling to take a pay cut would we be forced to make up the difference and that would be included in our cap (just like any contracted player trade).

The only thing we can't do is get them to agree to a pay cut on their existing deal while staying with us. We could give them extra years at a low wage to smooth out the total amount paid to them but their would be risks in that given they will be into 30s when their current contracts expire.

I still cant see us trading them personally. Hewetts contract is good value and not a problem. Williams would be hard to find takers for without us chipping in a fair bit of his contract.

Everything you have stated there is incorrect. A free agents contract must be included in the salary cap weather they are traded, retire or delisted.

 

[DangerousD]

The difference in their contracts our included in our salary cap... we don't know if we've also forward paid either... so if they get traded we only pay the differential on our cap.

Sorry, that’s not the rule, the entire contract is stuck with you until the deal is over, regardless if a player is traded or retires.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Geelong had a period where they went mad on half forwards. We need to do the same. We just don't have them. Cat's had 7 players in their team from other clubs, they butchered the top end of the draft all they way through their rebuild, they just brought in guys they needed.

We need to recruit about 3 or 4 smaller/medium forwards with the hope 1 or 2 will make it.

We need to keep our ears close to the ground for a strong bodied, quick lower set midfielder who can run and who is top level. Maybe an older player in the next few seasons.

We need to keep on the look out for a CHB if Young is not they guy and that may well be Lemmy.

Our rebuild is still going. But small forwards are top priority. Along with a coach who knows what they are doing and IMO that just has to be Betts in some way shape or form.

It's easy with us. No proper forward ruck. Small/medium forwards not up to it and no depth there. Midfield is too slow/tall. Young is too inconsistent and slow as the second tall defender. Team lacks forwards who can go into the middle and have an impact or midfielders who can drift forward and impact.

Been let down by injuries and players not coming in. Martin should be our forward mid. DeKoning should be second ruck/forward. Motlop and Fisher have been poor, Durdin has not come on. Honey has not made any progress.

Taryn Thomas would slot in perfectly…

 

[Jeremias]

Taryn Thomas would slot in perfectly…

Why are North getting rid of him?

 

[marcmurphy3]

Everything you have stated there is incorrect. A free agents contract must be included in the salary cap weather they are traded, retire or delisted.

If you have evidence I'm happy to be corrected but just don't see how that can possibly be the case. You seem very adament so I look forward to seeing it.

Say Zac Williams is still on 800k x 3 still with us. Say he wants a trade to Collingwood. What you're saying is we have 800k x 3 in our salary cap regardless of whether Williams is on our list? That's pretty much saying free agents can't be traded because nobody would trade a player if they had to absorb their entire salary. So as I said it makes no sense.

 

[Wickzki]

If you have evidence I'm happy to be corrected but just don't see how that can possibly be the case. You seem very adament so I look forward to seeing it.

Say Zac Williams is still on 800k x 3 still with us. He wants to go to a new club. Say he wants a trade to Collingwood. What you're saying is we have 800k x 3 in our salary cap regardless of whether Williams is on our list? That's pretty much saying free agents can't be traded because nobody would trade a player if they had to absorb their entire salary.

If we delist Williams and he signs elsewhere he's on our books for 3 years at his entire salary

If we trade Williams then we may be on the hook for part of his contract (see Treloar to Western Bulldogs as an example) if the acquiring club refuses to pay it all

You can't just cut players and get their cap space. Otherwise we'd have delisted a few players previously

Players only become free agents when they are out of contract after X years of service (varies). They become delisted free agents if their club has delisted them. Once a player has been delisted they are a free agent every time we they come out of contract (e.g. Matt Kennedy).

 

[DangerousD]

If you have evidence I'm happy to be corrected but just don't see how that can possibly be the case. You seem very adament so I look forward to seeing it.

Say Zac Williams is still on 800k x 3 still with us. Say he wants a trade to Collingwood. What you're saying is we have 800k x 3 in our salary cap regardless of whether Williams is on our list? That's pretty much saying free agents can't be traded because nobody would trade a player if they had to absorb their entire salary. So as I said it makes no sense.

That is what I’m saying yes, it was the rule the AFL brought in directly after Franklin signed with the Swans.

The rule is to protect clubs against teams offering huge deals to free agents that the original club can’t match, then renegotiating after a few years.

I will try and dig it out for you.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Why are North getting rid of him?

Because they are a weak club with a poor culture… oh wait

 

[DangerousD]

If we delist Williams and he signs elsewhere he's on our books for 3 years at his entire salary

If we trade Williams then we may be on the hook for part of his contract (see Treloar to Western Bulldogs as an example) if the acquiring club refuses to pay it all

You can't just cut players and get their cap space. Otherwise we'd have delisted a few players previously

Players only become free agents when they are out of contract after X years of service (varies). They become delisted free agents if their club has delisted them. Once a player has been delisted they are a free agent every time we they come out of contract (e.g. Matt Kennedy).

The rule Im talking about specifically relates to free agents who sign for another clubs, so the Treloar comparison doesn’t work as he wasn’t recruited to Collingwood as a FA.