List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Beyond Blue]

Voss does not believe in players having a second position and that is evident on how he coaches and how our development program is going. Guy can't coach, needs to either go or get help.

Multipositional talent is lacking badly at the club, players are not being developed to have a second position, players are not impacting when they rotate.

Not sure I agree with this, Voss even stated during a recent press conference that they had been planning over the pre season to get players playing in different positions to give them more flexibility and I’ve seen a willingness to try players out of position.

Cripps went forward against the Dogs which would have worked had he been able to kick straight. Against Collingwood he threw SOS back and Gov forward which I didn’t mind. Mind you sometimes it hasn’t worked either (eg Kennedy and Cerra back, Doc forward).

 

[Accidental genius]

I can understand wanting much of the above but to demote Cripps for essentially poor performance & then promote Weitering in his place seems counterintuitive.

For captaincy, its not the personal performance. It is more on field leadership. Listening to weiters in interviews etc he is a very good communicator, maybe one of our best. He can also be pretty vocal out there, which is also important.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

No, we had the same issues then as we do now, we've just essentially swapped Setters for Hewett.
So really, it'd be like turning around now & securing another slowish inside mid & ignoring more pressing needs, again.
Kennedy also wasnt getting us much if anything of note as a Free Agent so the point is ultimately moot.

At the time that was not the case at all. “Cripps need’s help” was because Setters and Kennedy were so poor. Setters was horrible in 2021, we got a cheap upgrade. Kennedy I presume was seen as cheap depth at that time hence why we kept him as a rookie and didn’t delist him.
Kennedy may have got us a third round pick and saved us possibly ~$300k.
Hewett, Cripps, Cerra and Walsh has the makings of a very good midfield and if we added Kennedy’s money towards another more dynamic/running mid we would be much better off imo.

The over abundance of insides mids came about because we got Hewett then the ones we had on our list got fit and improved. That’s hard for list management to predict. I mean if everything went right then between Martin, Cuningham, Motlop, Kemp, TDK, Durdin and McGovern it is possible we could be overstocked for forwards too if we chased another one this season.

 

[skadoosh]

You can cross Fyfe off the list. Although, I'm still hearing good things about Pavlich.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

You can cross Fyfe off the list. Although, I'm still hearing good things about Pavlich.

I didn't want Fyfe anyway.

More cooked than a Christmas Goose.

It's a good thing he stays a one club player too (from a football romantic point of view)

 

[BlueJet]

For captaincy, its not the personal performance. It is more on field leadership. Listening to weiters in interviews etc he is a very good communicator, maybe one of our best. He can also be pretty vocal out there, which is also important.

Whilst he's got some leadership skills, he has weaknesses of his own that make sacking/demoting the incumbent, problematic.
My view is that Walsh should be the next cab off the rank.

 

[Jatz]

Yeah Fyfe is done as a relevant player. It's nice for Freo to give him the right send off contract but there'd have been very little interest elsewhere.

 

[BlueJet]

At the time that was not the case at all. “Cripps need’s help” was because Setters and Kennedy were so poor. Setters was horrible in 2021, we got a cheap upgrade. Kennedy I presume was seen as cheap depth at that time hence why we kept him as a rookie and didn’t delist him.
Kennedy may have got us a third round pick and saved us possibly ~$300k.
Hewett, Cripps, Cerra and Walsh has the makings of a very good midfield and if we added Kennedy’s money towards another more dynamic/running mid we would be much better off imo.

The over abundance of insides mids came about because we got Hewett then the ones we had on our list got fit and improved. That’s hard for list management to predict. I mean if everything went right then between Martin, Cuningham, Motlop, Kemp, TDK, Durdin and McGovern it is possible we could be overstocked for forwards too if we chased another one this season.

Only if you operate under the assumption that getting Cripps help = get another one paced inside mid.
I dont & as I've stated, we have exactly the same weaknesses - two way running through the midfield & viable options on a hff, capable of pushing into the midfield.
Your outlook is seemingly that we should have moved Kennedy on as a DFA & recruited Hewett.
Mine is that Kennedy was always viable backup to Cripps & that the funds utilised to secure Hewett could have been utilised to address more pressing needs.
Ultimately, coulda, shoulda, woulda.. didn't.

 

[Aphrodite]

You can cross Fyfe off the list. Although, I'm still hearing good things about Pavlich.

When was Fyfe ever on 'the list'

 

[skadoosh]

When was Fyfe ever on 'the list'

The second sentence is a clue as to whether my post was serious...

 

[Accidental genius]

Whilst he's got some leadership skills, he has weaknesses of his own that make sacking/demoting the incumbent, problematic.
My view is that Walsh should be the next cab off the rank.

Walsh is only 22 so maybe in 3-5 years.

What’s the weakness in weiters in terms of on field leadership/captaincy?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Only if you operate under the assumption that getting Cripps help = get another one paced inside mid.
I dont & as I've stated, we have exactly the same weaknesses - two way running through the midfield & viable options on a hff, capable of pushing into the midfield.
Your outlook is seemingly that we should have moved Kennedy on as a DFA & recruited Hewett.
Mine is that Kennedy was always viable backup to Cripps & that the funds utilised to secure Hewett could have been utilised to address more pressing needs.
Ultimately, coulda, shoulda, woulda.. didn't.

At the time you thought Kennedy was going to be the player he is now? Fair enough If so but he was lucky not to be delisted. When the club took Hewett they were probably of the belief Kennedy and Setterfield would be delisted in 12 months.
Totally agree with what our needs are and we are desperate for that but the club would’ve wanted more then 4 goto mids and they obviously didn’t rate Kennedy and Setterfield at the time.
If we add a good hard running midfielder who can sometimes hit the scoreboard to Hewett, Cripps, Cerra and Walsh then it’s a pretty rounded and solid group imo and also affordable. If we actually tried to swap Hewett from that group for a midfielder with all the traits we want they are going to cost a hell of a lot.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

He's hypothetically best 22, but he's the wrong piece of the puzzle in this Carlton team. Happens all the time. Need to put the team before the individual

He is the wrong piece of the puzzle when our coaching is one dimensional. They are all talented enough to play stints away from the midfield.

They are so close to finding the right split with Kennedy, however they choose to play him in the back pocket instead of half forward where he may actually impact a game.

 

[Accidental genius]

At the time you thought Kennedy was going to be the player he is now? Fair enough If so but he was lucky not to be delisted. When the club took Hewett they were probably of the belief Kennedy and Setterfield would be delisted in 12 months.
Totally agree with what our needs are and we are desperate for that but the club would’ve wanted more then 4 goto mids and they obviously didn’t rate Kennedy and Setterfield at the time.
If we add a good hard running midfielder who can sometimes hit the scoreboard to Hewett, Cripps, Cerra and Walsh then it’s a pretty rounded and solid group imo and also affordable. If we actually tried to swap Hewett from that group for a midfielder with all the traits we want they are going to cost a hell of a lot.

Hewett probably a bit more mobile/agile but Kennedy is by far the better kick.

 

[bmaurizio]

Kennedy has a reliable, accurate kick & can take a very solid mark.
Good footy IQ too , one would have him as a lead up mid size forward, not quick but has all the other attributes to do well as a forward, will kick goals.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Hewett probably a bit more mobile/agile but Kennedy is by far the better kick.

I’d prefer Kennedy in the side atm.
I’d be playing Kennedy, Cerra, Cripps and then makeshift mids.

 

[Accidental genius]

I’d prefer Kennedy in the side atm.
I’d be playing Kennedy, Cerra, Cripps and then makeshift mids.

Rotate Cripps and Kennedy mid/forward

Rotate Hewett mid/back

Rotate Cerra mid and where ever there is a need.

 

[jpfalvo]

And... why should he?

Response to poster was more related to Cripps not being pur biggest issue when it comes to cap pressure vs output.

Big gap between best and worst BUT relatively durable and plays through injury.
A warrior.

Many other players tenure, salary and output need to be looked at ahead of him.

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[PezzDogg95]

Hi all, long post incoming.

I, as have many of you, have spent a fair bit of time thinking about how we can turn this club and rebuild around to become a genuine premiership contender and solve some of the problems. It is pretty obvious that we are too tied down with the players we have and we are too close to a (potential) premiership window to scorch the earth and start making big trades.

IMO, the flaws in our game plan and structure can be fixed with some positional changes (plus likely a year of development and cohesion). If we can find some internal solutions to these issues then we will be more than back on track with this list. The only query is with mounting pressure on the coach, will Voss have the courage to take some of these positional risks...

Structure issue - Lack of a proper Ruck/Key Fwd. Our current set ups (de Koning or Silvagni) either create a congested forward line if we go in with 2 rucks (with no proper forward craft), or a midfield demolition when Silvagni is played in the ruck. At times, having Curnow, McKay and De Koning together up forward creates a logjam, with no proper spacing, structure or ground support, wasting our two of our best assets in Curnow and McKay. Silvagni on the other hand, doesn't offer much in terms of ruck support, and is not particularly respected by the opposition when up forward.

Structure issue - Slow, oversized midfield with lack of defensive run. Can't play Cripps, Kennedy and Hewett in the same midfield, as we get found out in transition. The primary one being Cripps, who despite winning a Brownlow medal last year has looked heavy and slow in midfield, akin to his 2020 and 2021 seasons. We need to be judging our potential to win a flag against the top 4 teams in the competition - the game is already moving away from his type of style, and Cripps will be 29 by Round 1 next year, has carried this club for 8 years since Judd handed over the reigns and is showing signs of it affecting him.

Solution to the spine - Positional moves:

- Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

chopping out in the ruck while Pittonet rests on the bench. Gets Harry up into the game to get a feel for the ball and some early momentum, in a similar vein to how Brisbane use Joe Daniher. Additionally he would provide a stronger aerial contest than Silvagni, and can't be that much worse than de Koning with the odd tap out. Most importantly, he is a genuine key forward threat when back in his natural key forward position, deep from the square, whereas any other second ruck we have will be a liability up forward or in the ruck. (60% game time as a key forward, 25% ruck, 15% resting on bench).

- Charlie Curnow

30

Charlie Curnow

Age

27

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

9.7

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.4

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.8

4star

moving up to the roaming centre half forward role. He is the best kick in the team entering F50, can kick goals from distance and moves the game on quickly. An absolute asset along the half forward line. (90% game time as a key forward, 10% resting on the bench).

- Patrick Cripps

9

Patrick Cripps

Age

29

Ht

195cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.9

5star

K

9.8

4star

HB

16.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

5.8

5star

CL

7.4

5star

D

21.0

5star

K

10.1

4star

HB

10.9

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

3.8

4star

CL

6.3

5star

D

12.6

4star

K

4.8

2star

HB

7.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.4

4star

setting up as the rotation key forward, playing deep from the square when Harry is in the ruck or on the bench. Our forward line needs a leader with a strong voice, which will be another benefit of bringing Patrick up forward. This will require Patrick to swallow his pride a bit and acknowledge that he needs to put the team first to secure his longevity in the game. He will obviously need to put in the work over summer to correct his goal kicking (which he did prior to 2022 to great success, however it has reverted back to prior form). (50% game time as a key forward, 30% as the contested inside mid, 20% resting on the bench).

- Brodie Kemp being inserted as the primary contested midfielder. Firstly, from my perspective, he does not appear to be a natural defender. Secondly, Kemp's physical attributes are exactly what is required in the midfield, acceleration, speed, evasiveness and willingness to take the game on, precisely where the game is going. Yes, he is currently still raw, and largely untried in the midfield apart from his U18 year which was cut short, but he has the potential to change the dynamic our midfield mix alone. It is time to find out what type of player Brodie Kemp is, but while Kemp is still raw, Kennedy can play this role. (70% game time as the contested inside mid, 10% chopping out as a key defender when Weitering & Young are resting, 20% resting on the bench).

- Pittonet (75% game time as ruck, 25% resting on bench).

- Weitering & Young (both 95% game time as key defender, 5% resting on the bench).


With this structure, we will always have exactly: 1 ruckman, 1 contested mid, 2 key forwards and 2 key defenders on the field. Consistency in our system (barring injury). These are the 7 players that will cover the 6 'Spine' positions on the ground:

Ruck: PITTONET - Mirkov
Ruck / key forward: McKAY - O'Keeffe
Key forward: CURNOW - Lemmey

Key forward / inside mid: CRIPPS - Silvagni
Inside mid: KEMP - Kennedy

Key defender: WEITERING - S Durdin
Key defender: YOUNG - ???


In another post I will provide my thoughts on how we can support our spine from a personnel perspective, particularly up forward and through the midfield.

TL;DR - McKay as a key fwd/ruck, Cripps as key fwd/mid and throw Brodie Kemp into the midfield for some speed and agility, because he is not best utilised down back and we need to find out who he is as a footballer.

Anyway I doubt this will happen, but I feel like the current system is not working and needs a shake up to utilise our assets better. Hopefully this post is thought provoking at least.

 

[jpfalvo]

Another introvert leading the club??

Give it to Charlie and let’s see if we change the robot mentality!

Not sure on Charlie as Captain.
But agree on introvert point.

I'm not convinced we have the next Captain on the list as yet. Been a long while since we had an extroverted leader (captain).

We need our Joel Selwood moment. Geelong recruitment of him was another marker for their rise, and his leadership set the tone / culture for next 15yrs.

Left a field point, Cowan was recruited as Captain of Tassie? Can he be developed to lead?

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[jpfalvo]

Matt Rowell

18

Matt Rowell

Age

22

Ht

180cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

0.8

1star

T

5.2

5star

CL

3.8

5star

D

17.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

0.8

1star

T

5.2

5star

CL

3.8

5star

D

17.4

5star

K

7.6

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

0.8

1star

T

5.2

5star

CL

3.8

5star

would be my target.
Pay this years and next years first and whatever else they want.
Kid has it all and a genuine “follow me” leader.

Going to have to recruit his best mate Anderson with him then. Cant see him leaving GC when they both made a public commitment

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[Stefchook]

We need Anderson a lot more than we need Rowell. We've already got way too many inside mids.

 

[gbatman]

Not sure I agree with this, Voss even stated during a recent press conference that they had been planning over the pre season to get players playing in different positions to give them more flexibility and I’ve seen a willingness to try players out of position.

Cripps went forward against the Dogs which would have worked had he been able to kick straight. Against Collingwood he threw SOS back and Gov forward which I didn’t mind. Mind you sometimes it hasn’t worked either (eg Kennedy and Cerra back, Doc forward).

So what has this not happened?

It's all been forced and has come late in the season. It does not happen as part of the normal game plan, it happens when we are getting beaten and someone decides to throw a magnet around. Similar things happening in the VFL.

Cripps forward early last season was a massive win for us then mid way through that has stopped.

Then he throws players in positions they don't have the traits to play like Kennedy in defence. He's too slow. Use Hollands who spoils well, reads the play well in defence and can provide rebound two way run, bring Binns in to replace him on the wing. Our coaching staff have no idea how to identify player traits and use that.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Out of contract?

Think so

 

[passmark]

Going to have to recruit his best mate Anderson with him then. Cant see him leaving GC when they both made a public commitment

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Yeah I know.

Sometimes I dream silly dreams.