Opinion 2024 and Beyond

[Ehswan]

I've seen a lot of people on here and social media and the like on board with letting Rowbottom go if need be. I can't believe it. Didn't see this shift coming.

I would not be ok with that..or Hayward or Florent. I'm with a few of the others that think we can retain all our players and still bring in a decent priced one..
Don't think we necessarily need to though

 

[Kiama Chris]

I would not be ok with that..or Hayward or Florent. I'm with a few of the others that think we can retain all our players and still bring in a decent priced one..
Don't think we necessarily need to though

I think we always need to be aware of opportunities to improve. Not necessarily "at any cost" but in areas that will benefit the team.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Unless you accept the line it is smarter to give up CB possessions to the Oppo because our pressure forces error, it is clear our midfield was poor in 2023.

This is why I liked Papley at CBs. Tom has the ability to read where the ball is likely to go from a bounce or pack marking attempts. Skilton was a legendary rover despite mostly roving to losing rucks. He just knew where the ball was going.

Our 2023 primary inside mids played to losing rucks but none have shown elite ability to read and shark Oppo taps. Whatever their other attributes Parker and Rowbottom are they are not adept at winning first possession from a winning Oppo ruck.

The Club has addressed this in part by our trades. Via Grundy we should win more first possessions from taps and in Adams and Sheldrake more possessions because I reckon they are more skilled at reading where the ball will go in a ruck contest.

I reckon we are on the continuous improvement path. Some current players may have the ability to adapt and improve while others may have already topped out.

The 2024 story of our midfield will be engrossing and central to how far we go this year. I can’t wait to see how it pans out.

 

[caesar88]

Unless you accept the line it is smarter to give up CB possessions to the Oppo because our pressure forces error, it is clear our midfield was poor in 2023.

This is why I liked Papley at CBs. Tom has the ability to read where the ball is likely to go from a bounce or pack marking attempts. Skilton was a legendary rover despite mostly roving to losing rucks. He just knew where the ball was going.

Our 2023 primary inside mids played to losing rucks but none have shown elite ability to read and shark Oppo taps. Whatever their other attributes Parker and Rowbottom are they are not adept at winning first possession from a winning Oppo ruck.

The Club has addressed this in part by our trades. Via Grundy we should win more first possessions from taps and in Adams and Sheldrake more possessions because I reckon they are more skilled at reading where the ball will go in a ruck contest.

I reckon we are on the continuous improvement path. Some current players may have the ability to adapt and improve while others may have already topped out.

The 2024 story of our midfield will be engrossing and central to how far we go this year. I can’t wait to see how it pans out.

I don't think there's anyone better than Rowbottom on our list at winning first possession. Whether that necessarily makes him Christian Petracca as far as roving goes, I don't know. But in the back end of 2022 there wasn't a player in the comp roving the ball as good as Rowbottom was, and he was the most effective mid we had at converting first possession into centre clearances in 2023, including Papley and Sheldrick.

I don't disagree with you that the midfield was a huge problem but constantly wrongly-attributing it to Rowbottom, declaring that a kid who was solid in four games is somehow better, and dismissal of Rowbottom's role - which is not conducive to ball-winning, so yeah no s**t he's not going to be associated with winning much first possession - all combine to destroy any credibility your argument might otherwise have.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I don't think there's anyone better than Rowbottom on our list at winning first possession. Whether that necessarily makes him Christian Petracca as far as roving goes, I don't know. But in the back end of 2022 there wasn't a player in the comp roving the ball as good as Rowbottom was, and he was the most effective mid we had at converting first possession into centre clearances in 2023, including Papley and Sheldrick.

I don't disagree with you that the midfield was a huge problem but constantly wrongly-attributing it to Rowbottom, declaring that a kid who was solid in four games is somehow better, and dismissal of Rowbottom's role - which is not conducive to ball-winning, so yeah no s**t he's not going to be associated with winning much first possession - all combine to destroy any credibility your argument might otherwise have.

I attributed it to Parker and Rowbottom. Whether it was a deficient set up and role assignment or the set up was based on the strengths and weaknesses of our primary inside mids is open to question.

You are entitled to your views of course.

 

[caesar88]

I attributed it to Parker and Rowbottom. Whether it was a deficient set up and role assignment or the set up was based on the strengths and weaknesses of our primary inside mids is open to question.

You are entitled to your views of course.

Why not Warner as well then? Unlike Rowbottom and even Parker, Warner's role does not concern himself much with any defensive accountability. But even without that added responsibility, he had less clearances than either of those two and the same amount of contested possessions as Rowbottom. Not sure why he's so exempt from blame.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Why not Warner as well then? Unlike Rowbottom and even Parker, Warner's role does not concern himself much with any defensive accountability. But even without that added responsibility, he had less clearances than either of those two and the same amount of contested possessions as Rowbottom. Not sure why he's so exempt from blame.

he had a slightly down year too, but plays as more of a hybrid than the other two

Parker and Rowbottom are close to specialist inside mids, though Parker does a huge amount of work in defensive and offensive transition. As I have said elsewhere I hope Parker spends a bit more time rotating forward this season. Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt Rowbottom has the skills or versatility to play anywhere other than as an inside mid.

 

[caesar88]

he had a slightly down year too, but plays as more of a hybrid than the other two

Parker and Rowbottom are close to specialist inside mids, though Parker does a huge amount of work in defensive and offensive transition. As I have said elsewhere I hope Parker spends a bit more time rotating forward this season. Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt Rowbottom has the skills or versatility to play anywhere other than as an inside mid.

Warner was only at 2% less CBAs last year than Rowbottom and I don't know how anyone with sight could deny that Warner's role is more conducive to winning the ball at stoppages than Rowbottom. FWIW I don't blame Warner. I think he's young, and was still good last year. But if you are approaching it from the position that players are to blame, then Warner's as much to "blame" as anyone is.

Rowbottom doesn't need to play anywhere other than inside mid. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he's the best player on the inside that we have. His role is what it is. If Sheldrick was given the same role I suspect you'd be rather mum on the subject of Sheldrick's ball-winning work, or lack thereof.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Warner was only at 2% less CBAs last year than Rowbottom and I don't know how anyone with sight could deny that Warner's role is more conducive to winning the ball at stoppages than Rowbottom. FWIW I don't blame Warner. I think he's young, and was still good last year. But if you are approaching it from the position that players are to blame, then Warner's as much to "blame" as anyone is.

Rowbottom doesn't need to play anywhere other than inside mid. There's plenty of evidence to suggest he's the best player on the inside that we have. His role is what it is. If Sheldrick was given the same role I suspect you'd be rather mum on the subject of Sheldrick's ball-winning work, or lack thereof.

We do not share the same view on the evidence. Have seen enough to know Sheldrick is better at reading ball ups and winning possession. Rowbottom is the best pure defensive tackling mid we have.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

We do not share the same view on the evidence. Have seen enough to know Sheldrick is better at reading ball ups and winning possession. Rowbottom is the best pure defensive tackling mid we have.

I have the same view as yours and sometimes clubs tend to go with what is "known" and that is Rowbottom. Sheldrick has to be in the inside mix from round 1, if that means Parker forward, non fussed. Sheldrick gets the pill more than Rowbottom and whilst getting it isn't the only thing, you look at most top inside mids comp wide they are 30+ possession mids. Rowbottom as a defensive tackling mid I like that idea as it suits both players, so they both are in the side just slightly varying roles thats all.

 

[caesar88]

I have the same view as yours and sometimes clubs tend to go with what is "known" and that is Rowbottom. Sheldrick has to be in the inside mix from round 1, if that means Parker forward, non fussed. Sheldrick gets the pill more than Rowbottom and whilst getting it isn't the only thing, you look at most top inside mids comp wide they are 30+ possession mids. Rowbottom as a defensive tackling mid I like that idea as it suits both players, so they both are in the side just slightly varying roles thats all.

What are you basing this on? Take away the West Coast cakewalk and Sheldrick's highest disposal count last year was 21, in his sixth AFL game in his second year. Rowbottom had 21 in his fourth AFL game in his first year. He then had 24 the week after.

If you're not a Rowbotton fan then fair enough but these assertions about what a largely-unproven kid can do that Rowbottom supposedly can't are just absurd.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

What are you basing this on? Take away the West Coast cakewalk and Sheldrick's highest disposal count last year was 21, in his sixth AFL game in his second year. Rowbottom had 21 in his fourth AFL game in his first year. He then had 24 the week after.

Why are you taking out that game for starters, you can say it was a cakewalk but lets not pretend we didn't thrash teams with Rowbottom there. 24 isn't even enough these days as an inside mid- look at the best ones Neale, Cripps, etc they all go 30 plus and into the mid 30's. Yes possessions aren't the only thing but you cannot have inside mids in the 20-24 range, that's 10 below what is needed, at a minimum it's 5 below and that is if he actually gets 24 which is hardly a given. You play both, Sheldrick as the genuine inside, and Rowbottom as a defensive tackling mid it suits both players and it suits the team. Parker forward, and he can be an extra mid in the FWD half.

 

[caesar88]

Why are you taking out that game for starters, you can say it was a cakewalk but lets not pretend we didn't thrash teams with Rowbottom there. 24 isn't even enough these days as an inside mid- look at the best ones Neale, Cripps, etc they all go 30 plus and into the mid 30's. Yes possessions aren't the only thing but you cannot have inside mids in the 20-24 range, that's 10 below what is needed, at a minimum it's 5 below and that is if he actually gets 24 which is hardly a given. You play both, Sheldrick as the genuine inside, and Rowbottom as a defensive tackling mid it suits both players and it suits the team. Parker forward, and he can be an extra mid in the FWD half.

I'm taking out the West Coast game because it flattered every single one of our players. Outside of that game Sheldrick failed to reach the 24-disposal mark that is supposedly in the fail zone for an inside mid, so again I ask, what are you basing your assertion that Sheldrick is supposedly better at finding the ball than Rowbottom on?

 

[S120]

I actually think one of Sheldrick's most exciting components of his game is that so far he's been very good at finding uncontested ball. Rowbottom is an inside mid to his core - he tackles like a maniac and will tend to win more contested ball than uncontested ball. Sheldrick in his games so far (small sample size of course, but oh well) has been very good at winning ball on the inside and outside - the mix of the two is more even, it seems to me. For me, that's where Sheldrick's value is going to be emphasised. He'll clearly be an inside mid but his nous for winning loose ball is top notch. I don't think Rowbottom will ever quite be that type of player - nor do we need him to be.

 

[Kiama Chris]

I actually think one of Sheldrick's most exciting components of his game is that so far he's been very good at finding uncontested ball. Rowbottom is an inside mid to his core - he tackles like a maniac and will tend to win more contested ball than uncontested ball. Sheldrick in his games so far (small sample size of course, but oh well) has been very good at winning ball on the inside and outside - the mix of the two is more even, it seems to me. For me, that's where Sheldrick's value is going to be emphasised. He'll clearly be an inside mid but his nous for winning loose ball is top notch. I don't think Rowbottom will ever quite be that type of player - nor do we need him to be.

Pretty sure at the relative stages of their careers Sheldrick is being encouraged to play what's in front of him whereas Rowbottom is most likely playing a pretty specific role most of the time. I think the coaches votes reward him for his discipline in playing that role.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how our midfield functions this year but I'm not expecting to see a lot of Sheldrick unless through injury.

 

[Callipygian]

I used to think of myself as a huge Sheldrick fan. And it's not so much that I've changed my views, it's more that the board has moved so extremely towards Sheldrick-mania that my fandom is beginning to look faint hearted by comparison.

I am not putting a ceiling on Gus but nor am I expecting him to be better than Rowbottom. If he turns out as good as Rowy, that will be an entirely satisfactory result. If he can be even better, well that's all icing. At this stage Sheldrick has a way to go before he is rivalling Rowbottom. And that's ok: Gus is only about 9 games into his career.

Also, Rowbottom himself has not yet peaked. He has not yet played 100 games. The coaches commented multiple times how much he improved last year. And he's still got more improvement in him.

 

[Kiama Chris]

I used to think of myself as a huge Sheldrick fan. And it's not so much that I've changed my views, it's more that the board has moved so extremely towards Sheldrick-mania that my fandom is beginning to look faint hearted by comparison.

I am not putting a ceiling on Gus but nor am I expecting him to be better than Rowbottom. If he turns out as good as Rowy, that will be an entirely satisfactory result. If he can be even better, well that's all icing. At this stage Sheldrick has a way to go before he is rivalling Rowbottom. And that's ok: Gus is only about 9 games into his career.

Also, Rowbottom himself has not yet peaked. He has not yet played 100 games. The coaches commented multiple times how much he improved last year. And he's still got more improvement in him.

Good call on both. Every time Gus has moved up a level his game has improved and until his injury it looked that way again. Rowy is a good hard inside mid but is more skilful than he is often given credit for and he is still yet to reach his peak years.

 

[S120]

Good call on both. Every time Gus has moved up a level his game has improved and until his injury it looked that way again. Rowy is a good hard inside mid but is more skilful than he is often given credit for and he is still yet to reach his peak years.

I agree with this - Rowbottom's skill particularly when delivering inside 50 and around goals I think are actually properly underrated.

I'm not on the Sheldrick is better than Rowbottom train - I think comparing them right now as an overall playyer is kinda pointless, but I do think comparing the types of players they are is useful and I see them as working just fine alongside each other as well as Chad and Errol moving forward.

 

[caesar88]

Pretty sure at the relative stages of their careers Sheldrick is being encouraged to play what's in front of him whereas Rowbottom is most likely playing a pretty specific role most of the time. I think the coaches votes reward him for his discipline in playing that role.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how our midfield functions this year but I'm not expecting to see a lot of Sheldrick unless through injury.

This.

Rowbottom made a comment on stage at the B&F about how he wanted to win more uncontested ball. I thought that was interesting because to me the most obvious way he can get better is by winning even more contested ball.

He's the only mid we have who is on par with the contested possession rate JPK was producing at the peak of his powers. In his All Australian seasons, JPK averaged a contested possession rate of 56.6%. Last year Rowbottom went at 56.2%. Yet their impact on games is clearly poles apart, probably because in those seasons JPK was getting 6 more contested possessions a game than what Rowbottom did last year. Those possessions then translated into things like clearances, score involvements etc.

It stands to reason that if 56% of the time Rowbottom wins the ball, it's a hard ball won, then getting the ball in his hands more will mean more hard ball wins.

This I think is the biggest misconception about what people mean when they say they want Rowbottom freed up more. It's not so he can run around racking up uncontested ball on the outside a la Gulden, or breaking lines off half back a la Blakey or Florent, or slicing the field open with beautiful kicking a la Campbell. He's just not that player and we don't need him to be, as we have others who are perfectly capable of offering those things.

I just want to see him going for hard balls in contested situations more often. It's what we're crying out for, and what he happens to be bloody good at. All that tight and tough stuff - reading ball drops, getting his arms free in tackles, threading the needle by hand, banging it out of danger zones, surging the ball forward and gaining territory at all costs. I think he's actually better at all of these things combined than he is at tackling, and we arguably need those things more than his tackling.

There are so many times in games where he just doesn't go for a hard ball that is there and begging to be won, because he's off to the side putting body on an opponent. He gets rewarded by the coaches, but it's like watching a caged animal being kept at bay. If even half of those times, he goes for those balls, that will add at least three or four extra contested possessions to his game. There's not a single reason we should not be wanting this. We won't lose his tackling. He is all guts and a heart and soul player. You know that even if freed to attack the ball more he will not shirk any chance to tackle someone.

Such a nothing to lose/everything to gain move. So frustrating.

 

[Jewelsbon]

We do not share the same view on the evidence. Have seen enough to know Sheldrick is better at reading ball ups and winning possession. Rowbottom is the best pure defensive tackling mid we have.

I'm as big a Gus fan as anybody but he's played 9 games for heaven's sake.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I'm as big a Gus fan as anybody but he's played 9 games for heaven's sake.

True about the 9 games

However it was obvious in the 2s he is a quality reader of ruck contests.

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

I'm as big a Gus fan as anybody but he's played 9 games for heaven's sake.

Agree with this - it’s a touch early to call it. Kids got more wraps on him than Tutankhamen.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Agree with this - it’s a touch early to call it. Kids got more wraps on him than Tutankhamen.

Bigfooty is notorious for going the early crow.

It’s part of the charm.

One esteemed poster famously declared (without a hint of irony, absolutely none) that Lachie Rankin would be a dual Brownlow medallist.

Nonetheless, as President of the Sheldrick Appreciation Society, I state on behalf of our members: Gun.

 

[caesar88]

Bigfooty is notorious for going the early crow.

It’s part of the charm.

One esteemed poster famously declared (without a hint of irony, absolutely none) that Lachie Rankin would be a dual Brownlow medallist.

Nonetheless, as President of the Sheldrick Appreciation Society, I state on behalf of our members: Gun.

"Esteemed"? I don't know about that! I would accept "good-looking" as that is less-disputed.

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

Bigfooty is notorious for going the early crow.

It’s part of the charm.

One esteemed poster famously declared (without a hint of irony, absolutely none) that Lachie Rankin would be a dual Brownlow medallist.

Nonetheless, as President of the Sheldrick Appreciation Society, I state on behalf of our members: Gun.

I see your one Gun, 2 Lachie Rankins and raise you 5 Ollie Florent Brownlows as perhaps the biggest call I’ve ever seen in the 100,000 posts I’ve read.