Training 2024 Pre-season training

[threenewpadlocks]

Yeah don’t get me wrong I’d like us to invest there now, but I can see why we’ve prioritised other areas first and there hasn’t exactly been much on offer recently, we had a crack at Henry but I think the price was too high. Anyway it seems like we’re targeting the area now that we’ve locked up most other positions, I just don’t think it’s going to make or break our year, even with how dire our wing stocks are

At the end of the day our big salary investments over the last 6-7 years for that we didn't draft and develop ourselves have almost exclusively been talls (Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Keath, O'Brien, Lobb, Jones).

Arguably Treloar and maybe Crozier and Duryea were the only players in this window that this didn't apply to that we paid any amount to, until Harmes. But still that's far more "talls" than "smalls" we recruited from other clubs paying more than a minimum amount on a multi-year salary in the post-2016 flag era.

I don't think it's coincidence - clearly this is a deliberate strategy by the club in how they assess how best to spend the currency of list management resources building a balanced list into the medium/long term.

So given that there's a direct cause an effect of lack of list management capitcal invesmtent into certain positions and those positions being weak, and such a weakness being obvious last year and it not being corrected tihsyear, discussing whether that was the right strategy is an entirely fair one.

 

[yebach]

I'm not one for throwing players around too much. But could we try Caleb Daniel

35

Caleb Daniel

Age

27

Ht

171cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

19.5

4star

K

11.1

4star

HB

8.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

CL

1.0

3star

D

16.4

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

9.2

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

on a wing? From memory he played there a few seasons ago and was better than anything we have now. Then he was moved to Full Back.
Also, could JJ play on the wing?

 

[lachy]

Macrae maybe but seems he’s gone backwards since his VFL hit out, and JOD hasn’t had a preseason hit out yet so I can’t imagine we’ll bring him in off zero game time.

There’s 9 days sure but they’re definitely still underdone at this stage

Are they playing in the VFL practice match tomorrow morning for some match time?

 

[yebach]

Could Treloar play there also?

 

[stefoid]

Freijah and perhaps O’Driscoll are legitimate attempts to solve this problem. The club deserves credit for that even if it’s a couple of years too late.

However neither could be expected to be ready to play senior football early in their first season out of juniors. Hence the ongoing merry go round of mature age hopefuls like Baker, Poulter etc. With a bit of luck one of those might make the grade.

There’s also Bedendo who might have made a winger by now (if not a HFF/HBF) but has had a wretched run with injuries.

So it’s not as if the club hasn’t tried.

well, theres trying and theres trying. Using a late pick on a project draftee or a delisted player is low-risk, low-return. its fingers crossed for 3 years from now stuff

OTOH, with Sanders we TRIED to get a class midfielder. High-risk (in terms of resources) high return.

 

[lachy]

I agree we need to bolster our wings the way the game has moved. Why I am not sure why Dale has not been tried there. Others can play his role in defense but has been noted by all we do not have a genuine top level winger at the moment and with his move back Dale has developed all of the attributes required now

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'm not one for throwing players around too much. But could we try Caleb Daniel on a wing? From memory he played there a few seasons ago and was better than anything we have now. Then he was moved to Full Back.
Also, could JJ play on the wing?

With Daniel, I would say it's far too easy for other teams to isolate his lack of height and take advantage of it when you know you can switch the play and back a player to beat Daniel in a marking 1v1. Such the weakness is that he needs to be "hidden" in greater congestion where the more that there's greater players around him, the less his lack of height matters as naturally packs will be formed in marking contests or he can use his main skill of being a very clean player below his knees and reading the ball of packs.

Being a wing is that for almost half of all stoppages - throw ins or ball-ups outside the centre square - you have a job on the 'fat side' and you're basically left on an island with a direct opponent with no teammates within 50m of you. If I were the other team and won the clearance I'd basically kick it straight to that one-on-one contest diagonoally from the clearance win, and if Daniel were outmarked you have a million options in open space to drive it inside 50.

With JJ, I guess his body is just not up to it given his recent injury history.

I agree we need to bolster our wings the way the game has moved. Why I am not sure why Dale has not been tried there. Others can play his role in defense but has been noted by all we do not have a genuine top level winger at the moment and with his move back Dale has developed all of the attributes required now

I agree Dale looks like he could be played there but I think it may be one of these:

• Simply doesn't have the athleticism/running capacity
• He isn't a natural at the position like he is reading the play down back, maybe we tried him there at training or something and it was obvious he got lost in stoppage traffic, positioning, structures, reaidng the play and knowing when to mark or peel off the opposition winger, etc.
• Maybe because in defence he turned himself from being outside the 22 to an All-Australian, there's no point rocking the boat and moving his position again for the risk that he will just regress back to the fringe player he was as a forward a few years ago. We also don't have the positional depth, so in essence it would just be Williams swapping with him on the wing, so there's really 'no point' to this move if Williams' output doesn't significantly improve on the half-back line to at least the same extent that Dale's would decrease moving to the wing.

 

[Dog 36]

Are they playing in the VFL practice match tomorrow morning for some match time?

If they are it may explain why both were not training

 

[Libbaaaa]

My first point is that it was a) a desire to recruit established AFL proven on-field talent and b) a commitment at the draft and salary level to pay more than the absolute bare minimum such as DFA and mid-season draft picks just hasn't occured by us.

So I get that, as a random example, Blake Acres isn't a superstar, isn't earning huge money and wasn't a huge trade investment by Carlton.

But he still was an established, proven on-field performer when he was recruited, still demanded a multi-year contract well above the minimum amounts, and still required draft assets of some sort to get him, rather than just the nothing.

I actually agree with you that the wing positions are not that important, because and player who is truly first-round worthy as a wing player would naturally be so good that they would move on the ball, a bit like McCluggage has over the last few years and other players like Andrew Gaff have done over the last decade.

Compare for example to us recruiting Jackson Trengove in 2017 (~1.75 million over 4 years) and Lobb ($1.5 million over 3 years). Neither would be considered minor recruits from us at the time, but some of these wingers went for bigger money:

Karl Amon - $2.6 million over 4 years
Rory Atkins - $2 million over 5 years
Brandon Ellis - $3 million over 5 years
Blake Acres: $1.05 million over 3 years
Brad Hill: 800k p/y

I'm not saying these contracts are valuable or good deals bye the clubs per se, just that the clubs have invested a fair chunk of salary (figures that sometimes even exceed e.g. what we paid for Lobb, which people want to claim is a significant salary cap investment by the club), which by its logic means that they were also clear salary cap investments by their respective club.

Players like Stephens, D'Ambrosio and Sharp had their selection of multiple clubs. Like I have no clue what Hawthorn are paying D'Ambriosio, but it was widely reported as a surprise recruitment when Hawthorn outbidded Essendon's mere one-year extension (two or three year contract on at least equivalent money) which therefore to create an outbidding situation is by its nature greater equivalent investment by Hawks than ours to Baker and Poulter.

Acres the outlier there, future 3rd and a deal that is probably below the average wage. Was okay at Freo but an absolute weapon last year.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I think the answer to many questions posed above is that we are extremely demanding of our wings, and over a decade with Bev have clearly demonstrated a rigid archetype for what we need them to have:

1. Good-elite running capacity
2. Strong defensive running
3. Speed
4. Above average aerial contest work (note: above average for the wing position, not for a player's height)

Off the top of my head, all of our wings over the last several years have hit at least three of these. Hunter hit 1, 2 and 4. Baz hits 1, 3 and 4. Poulter has 1, 2 and 4. Baker has 1, 3 and 4. Roarke Smith

37

Roarke Smith

Age

27

Ht

184cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.7

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

6.1

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.4

2star

No current season stats available

D

12.0

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

had all four. Bev loved starting Dickson on the wing because he had at least three of them, and his speed was underrated.

On the flip side, Daniel really only has two (1 & 2). Dale and JJ have 1 & 3 at most.

Not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but we seem to have very specific demands for players that play on the wing.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I think the answer to many questions posed above is that we are extremely demanding of our wings, and over a decade with Bev have clearly demonstrated a rigid archetype for what we need them to have:

1. Good-elite running capacity
2. Strong defensive running
3. Speed
4. Above average aerial contest work (note: above average for the wing position, not for a player's height)

Off the top of my head, all of our wings over the last several years have hit at least three of these. Hunter hit 1, 2 and 4. Baz hits 1, 3 and 4. Poulter has 1, 2 and 4. Baker has 1, 3 and 4. Roarke Smith had all four. Bev loved starting Dickson on the wing because he had at least three of them, and his speed was underrated.

On the flip side, Daniel really only has two (1 & 2). Dale and JJ have 1 & 3 at most.

Not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but we seem to have very specific demands for players that play on the wing.

This seems true, because of the fact that we've played blokes like McNeil for significant chunks on the wing too, because he has 1, 2 and 3 - even though he would go entire games only getting about 7 possessions, which an 'average' winger should be approaching 20.

Similar to players like Will Hayes who played a chunk there too.

 

[Dog 36]

AFL website suggests Macrae, Garcia and JOD all playing VFL this week

 

[Libba39]

No Dale?

On SM-A505YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

This seems true, because of the fact that we've played blokes like McNeil for significant chunks on the wing too, because he has 1, 2 and 3 - even though he would go entire games only getting about 7 possessions, which an 'average' winger should be approaching 20.

Similar to players like Will Hayes who played a chunk there too.

Yep, being "good" seems secondary to the attributes above - in that we consistently choose players who have more of those attributes over more complete/impactful players who have less.

Happy to be wrong if anyone can think of examples, it's just something that's always stood out to me.

 

[True Dog]

Sorry I just can't fathom the negativity on here. Its like we're finally looking good in most positions and all the nancies have decided that the season lives or dies on our wings....

#woethewings

On SM-A505YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don’t know why I’m surprised as this is BigFooty but seriously some of the over reaction and vitriol towards our club is laughable.

 

[dergert]

Roarke Smith

37

Roarke Smith

Age

27

Ht

184cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.7

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

6.1

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.4

2star

No current season stats available

D

12.0

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

played some of the best games as a wing that I've seen during Bevo's tenure. Mostly in the 2021 finals series.

 

[VitalDread]

Are they playing in the VFL practice match tomorrow morning for some match time?

Likely most players are VFL listed tomorrow

 

[Golden_6]

No Dale?

On SM-A505YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

The injury report did lean more towards that he would be no good for this week but a chance for the week after. Whether the club chooses to take that risk on limited game time is a different story.

 

[Oliver G]

WESTERN Bulldogs midfielder Jack Macrae will get the chance to make a late push for a round one spot by playing in the VFL again, while former top-10 pick Nick Coffield is on the cusp of playing his first AFL game since 2021.

Macrae missed almost all of the February training block after suffering a hamstring strain on the club's pre-season camp on the Sunshine Coast, but played managed minutes in a VFL practice match against Box Hill last weekend.

The three-time All-Australian will be one of three AFL-listed Bulldogs to feature in the practice match against North Melbourne at the Whitten Oval, along with James O'Donnell and Riley Garcia.

Macrae played 119 consecutive games, during a period where the Victorian was one of the most consistent midfielders in the AFL, until that streak ended when he entered the AFL's concussion protocols ahead of the final round of 2023.

But with pick No.6 Ryley Sanders and off-season signing James Harmes set to be injected into Luke Beveridge's midfield to start the new season, Macrae is fighting for a spot.

Coffield moved from Moorabbin during the Trade Period after enduring a nightmare injury run across the past two years, dating back to the moment he ruptured his ACL during a pre-season session in Ballarat in February 2022.

The 24-year-old played the last five VFL games of 2023 after overcoming lingering calf injuries and has completed the full pre-season program in Footscray.

Coffield has now put himself in a position to play his first game in 938 days when the Bulldogs face Melbourne next Sunday at the MCG, after strong showings against the Hawks over the past fortnight.

Dale completed most of Friday morning's session at the Whitten Oval before doing a running set with the rehab group that included Jordan Croft (shins), Aiden O'Driscoll (concussion) and Laitham Vandermeer (concussion).

With Dale no guarantee to play, Lachie Bramble is another new face in the frame to play in round one after being delisted by the Hawks.

The 25-year-old was added to the rookie list during the pre-season supplemental selection period (SSP), weeks after undergoing a shoulder reconstruction in the off-season.

But after returning to full training in January, Bramble – who is the only player to be recruited twice via the SSP – is understood to be under proper consideration to start the season after featuring in both practice matches.

Category B rookie O'Donnell will also get a final opportunity to secure a spot in round one after spraining his ankle in the match simulation against Hawthorn late last month.

The cricket convert has impressed this summer and looked set to lock down a spot in the Bulldogs' backline until the setback a fortnight ago.

Star Dog to push R1 case in VFL, ex-Saint in line for AFL comeback

Jack Macrae will play a VFL practice match this weekend in a bid for selection in the R1 team

www.afl.com.au

 

[Golden_6]

Sounds like Dale is definitely 50/50. I imagine they’ll have him doing a game like session this Sunday and if he gets through that, a chance to complete a full week program heading into round 1.

 

[Dazb86]

Luckily Melbourne are a side we can probably get away with only one true sized KPD. Their KPF's aren't dangerous in the air at all.

 

[Golden_6]

Luckily Melbourne are a side we can probably get away with only one true sized KPD. Their KPF's aren't dangerous in the air at all.

I'm tending to agree.

Coffield Jones JJ
Dale JOD Richards
Daniel

We can list Bramble as the sub and move Daniel up the ground later on. Daniel has plenty of matchups with guys like Chandler, Spargo & Laurie not hugely threatening. Against plenty of other teams, we'd need to bring in Buku for additional aerial support.

 

[Testekill]

Roarke Smith played some of the best games as a wing that I've seen during Bevo's tenure. Mostly in the 2021 finals series.

On the wing you always want one defensively minded wing and one offensively minded wing. Roarke could have been the defensive one that moved into defence but his body just stopped him from even getting out there in the VFL last year.

 

[doggies ftw]

AFL website suggests Macrae, Garcia and JOD all playing VFL this week

That’s different then if they were being held back today, for tomorrow. That’s a good sign.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Roarke Smith played some of the best games as a wing that I've seen during Bevo's tenure. Mostly in the 2021 finals series.

I remember watching the last game of of 2022 v Hawthorn. Roarke was clearly one of the best on. Got us into finals