Analysis Adams, Fasolo, Seedsman, Sinclair, Thomas, Williams

[DERKADERRR]

You do realise his court case?

Marley may not have the best year but i am so impressed with his toughness, and i believe the coaches are too.

That's what I meant in my first post by "different circumstances", apologies if I wasn't clear enough.

I too am impressed with his toughness, but all things considered I think both he and Seedsman had poor years. My point was mainly that people are harsher on Seedsman than Williams, when both of them had poor years.

The difference is that Williams has proven that he can be a consistent AFL level player in a defined position.

Seedsman is still very much fighting to hold his head above water at AFL level whether that be at half back or wing.

That's because they're three different positions, William's plays a back pocket which is relatively simplistic, restrict your direct opponents amount of goals and influence. A half back has to restrict his direct opponents influence and goals whilst creating run and drive from defence, a winger has to help with chopping off oppositions attack in the backline, create drive and run from defence, open up play in the middle of the ground and finally move the ball into the forwardline and kick goals. Traditionally it was a wing players role to create drive into the forwardline and kick goals but it has evolved into a player who helps defence out more. These positions are way more complex than a back pocket position.

If you gave Williams the same position as Seedsman I guarantee he would be no where near the same quality as Seedsman.

I will argue that Seedsman did hold down his position in 2013, even after he got injured late in the season he still came back into the team after recovering.

 

[Quicky]

That's because they're three different positions, William's plays a back pocket which is relatively simplistic, restrict your direct opponents amount of goals and influence. A half back has to restrict his direct opponents influence and goals whilst creating run and drive from defence, a winger has to help with chopping off oppositions attack in the backline, create drive and run from defence, open up play in the middle of the ground and finally move the ball into the forwardline and kick goals. Traditionally it was a wing players role to create drive into the forwardline and kick goals but it has evolved into a player who helps defence out more. These positions are way more complex than a back pocket position.

If you gave Williams the same position as Seedsman I guarantee he would be no where near the same quality as Seedsman.

I will argue that Seedsman did hold down his position in 2013, even after he got injured late in the season he still came back into the team after recovering.

Don't get me wrong I like Seedsman as a player at his best. We just need to be seeing that more often from him. It's a consistency thing.

In terms of the positional argument I'm not sure of its relevance. I mean I understand there are different characteristics and qualities required for different positions. But you still need to see players in their position performing consistently at an AFL level.

For e.g. you point out that Williams couldn't play the half back or wing role. Equally I can't see Seedsman being a successful a back pocket (Williams best position) when considering his general defensive skill-set.

That's Seedsman's challenge this year, he needs to find a role and perform it consistency at a high level. I'm positive and hopeful that he can show that to us this year.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Don't get me wrong I like Seedsman as a player at his best. We just need to be seeing that more often from him. It's a consistency thing.

In terms of the positional argument I'm not sure of its relevance. I mean I understand there are different characteristics and qualities required for different positions. But you still need to see players in their position performing consistently at an AFL level.

For e.g. you point out that Williams couldn't play the half back or wing role. Equally I can't see Seedsman being a successful a back pocket (Williams best position) when considering his general defensive skill-set.

That's Seedsman's challenge this year, he needs to find a role and perform it consistency at a high level. I'm positive and hopeful that he can show that to us this year.

Part of this is coaching though surely, in that Seedsman needs to be allowed to nail down a position by consistently being picked in that position, instead of being thrown around all over the place from one game to the next? He had more consistency of role in 2013 and was beginning to show how valuable he can be. This year he wasn't consistently fit but when he was, he was thrown around all over the place

 

[captain peanut]

Seedsman's preparation for 2014 was curtailed by serious hip surgery. He was behind the 8 ball from there. He is going to be a star

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Not an opinion, it's a fact

lol, no

 

[THATSGOLD]

They're all under 181cm. Seedsman the exception who is merely a running half back. That's the big worry. Where is a quality big bodied young mids coming through the ranks?

 

[cleomenes]

All of the players on this list will be very important for us next year. If they do what we hope, then we will improve. If too many of them don't, 2015 will be a bit unpleasant for us. I see it thus.
Their 2014 performances were variable or reasonable, with interruptions for varied reasons the cause for most. Sinclair was looking like a great attacking back until injured. He should go on. Williams had some good games despite the pressure of his court case. He should go on too. Seedsman looked good with the ball but didn't get it enough. This was compounded by inaccuracy with his kicking. He might become an outstanding player, but he could also slip from contention. Adams looks like a solid senior player, perhaps an outstanding one. Fasolo had a couple of good games, but mostly didn't get enough of the ball. He worries me most. Thomas has shown quite a bit, but needs to go further if he is to be a regular midfielder. I think he has a good chance of succeeding.

 

[jackcass]

All of the players on this list will be very important for us next year. If they do what we hope, then we will improve. If too many of them don't, 2015 will be a bit unpleasant for us. I see it thus.
Their 2014 performances were variable or reasonable, with interruptions for varied reasons the cause for most. Sinclair was looking like a great attacking back until injured. He should go on. Williams had some good games despite the pressure of his court case. He should go on too. Seedsman looked good with the ball but didn't get it enough. This was compounded by inaccuracy with his kicking. He might become an outstanding player, but he could also slip from contention. Adams looks like a solid senior player, perhaps an outstanding one. Fasolo had a couple of good games, but mostly didn't get enough of the ball. He worries me most. Thomas has shown quite a bit, but needs to go further if he is to be a regular midfielder. I think he has a good chance of succeeding.

Think his innacuracy was more about his decision making insomuch as it appeared he couldn't decide whether to hit up a leading forward or have a shot on goal, generally split the difference. That in turn may well just be a consequence of fitness & confidence. Generally think he's a good user of the footy.

 

[NT.Thunder]

We need to be patient in players that do show something yet lack consistency. Imagine if Geelong decided to cut Gary Ablett Jnr after 5 years of inconsistency. His 6th year he showed some promise and after 2008 the rest is football history.

Now I'm not liking Seedsman to Ablett at all, but sometimes it just takes a little longer for some to click. Not all players are Joel Selwoods that make immediate impact from day dot.

We just need to see improvement each year but also need to be mindful of the impact that injury and opportunity has on each individual.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

They're all under 181cm. Seedsman the exception who is merely a running half back. That's the big worry. Where is a quality big bodied young mids coming through the ranks?

"Big bodied mids" don't have to be incredibly tall IMO, just solid and strong over the ball and through the hips. Pendlebury is that now, so are Greenwood and Macaffer. Adams looks like being that long term and is hard as nails, while Freeman is an out and out monster, will be like Swan in frame but even quicker with more lean muscle. I think height is overrated with mids but in Pendles we have one of the best and Crisp, Karnezis and Scharenberg are long term options. We are heavily linked with Laverde also.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Se

We need to be patient in players that do show something yet lack consistency. Imagine if Geelong decided to cut Gary Ablett Jnr after 5 years of inconsistency. His 6th year he showed some promise and after 2008 the rest is football history.

Now I'm not liking Seedsman to Ablett at all, but sometimes it just takes a little longer for some to click. Not all players are Joel Selwoods that make immediate impact from day dot.

We just need to see improvement each year but also need to be mindful of the impact that injury and opportunity has on each individual.

Seedsman. Not sure where he will find a position. Don't think he'll ever be a midfielder more just sulking off half back. One on one he's a worry.

 

[rustyg70]

Se
Seedsman. Not sure where he will find a position. Don't think he'll ever be a midfielder more just sulking off half back. One on one he's a worry.

That's why I'd play him on the wing.
Has the pace and disposal skills to be damaging, but doesn't have to be too accountable for his man.
Sort of like the Hill brothers.

 

[THATSGOLD]

That's why I'd play him on the wing.
Has the pace and disposal skills to be damaging, but doesn't have to be too accountable for his man.
Sort of like the Hill brothers.

Might be right but you've got to remember Brad Hill has the beep test record which shows how good his endurance is, he can burst up and down for 4 quarters and does. Something Seedsman needs to work on..

 

[rustyg70]

Might be right but you've got to remember Brad Hill has the beep test record which shows how good his endurance is, he can burst up and down for 4 quarters and does. Something Seedsman needs to work on..

True.
Hopefully with a full preseason and a decent run with injuries he can improve on those things.
He has the talent to be a very handy, line breaking player that we sorely lack.

 

[NT.Thunder]

That's why I'd play him on the wing.
Has the pace and disposal skills to be damaging, but doesn't have to be too accountable for his man.
Sort of like the Hill brothers.

Agree, he needs to play as an attacking wingman but needs to be damaging going I50 and scoreboard impact. I agree he doesnt have the defensive side to play further behind the ball.

 

[rustyg70]

Agree, he needs to play as an attacking wingman but needs to be damaging going I50 and scoreboard impact. I agree he doesnt have the defensive side to play further behind the ball.

Definitely agree with scoreboard impact.
I notice too many times he has a shot at goal from 50+ metres, he makes the distance easily enough but misses 4 out if 5 times.
If he is going to go from there, he has to nail them, or lower his eyes and use his foot skills to find a loose player.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Agree, he needs to play as an attacking wingman but needs to be damaging going I50 and scoreboard impact. I agree he doesnt have the defensive side to play further behind the ball.

Thing is there is no such thing as a wingman anymore. It would be a liability to have a guy stay on the wing the whole time, a (wingmans) in a job a good team like hill is push deep in defence and deep forward and also cover the other side of the ground. How many blokes do you see just stand on a wing when the passage of play is on the other side of the ground? None. Everyone follows the ball.
Our best (wingman) is Sidebottom. I prefer to call it as a gut runner. He is the best player we have for consistently running up and down the ground.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Thing is there is no such thing as a wingman anymore. It would be a liability to have a guy stay on the wing the whole time, a (wingmans) in a good team like hill is push deep in defence and deep forward and also cover the other side of the ground. How many blokes do you see just stand on a wing when the passage of play is on the other side of the ground? None. Everyone follows the ball.

So that's settled, we just trade in midfielders!

I don't agree that it's that simple TD. There is still structure around the ground or otherwise the game would resemble an adult AusKick match. Wingman have always needed to be flexible but I certainly see value in ensuring there are attacking and defensive wingers and tbh it's probably horses for courses.

Seedsman has a place in our team as long as he finds consistency.

 

[MeisterBot]

Hawthorn have Smith and Hill, along with Birchall occasionally taking position as their dedicated wingmen. It's not so much standing on the wing as it is a release player. The guy who is always on the outside, waiting for the receive. They're the first ones to run back and the first ones to run forward, because they're rarely caught in the maul.

Smith and Hill are fantastic runners who can cover a lot of ground, hence their success at the position. Helps that they are amazing kicks too. Hawthorn have drafted remarkably well in that regard.

Seedsman needs to stay injury free, and he needs to build a much stronger consistent workrate with the willingness to run both ways. If he can do that, I think he has the potential to be better than Smith. Smith has him beat for endurance, but Seedsman's contested work is underrated and is more of an X-Factor player IMO.

Like Fasolo, I'm not actually sure if he will play to potential. However unlike Fasolo, Seedsman's been a rabid Pie fan his whole life. So I've got more faith that he will put in the hard yards to get the best out of himself.

 

[THATSGOLD]

So that's settled, we just trade in midfielders!

I don't agree that it's that simple TD. There is still structure around the ground or otherwise the game would resemble an adult AusKick match. Wingman have always needed to be flexible but I certainly see value in ensuring there are attacking and defensive wingers and tbh it's probably horses for courses.

Seedsman has a place in our team as long as he finds consistency.

The only time is there is some sort of structure is from centre bounces and kick ins. You look at the ground when the play is in general play and you could have a guy mowing half of the ground on his ride on and not have a care in the world.

 

[doppleganger]

And as I've said, how convenient for you that you discount the only relevant measure, particularly as it shows your unfounded prejudice for what it is.

Are you quoting disposal efficiency when specifically talking about kicking??

Sinclair avg almost a 1 to 1 kick to HB ratio, compared to Marley who is closer to 2 kicks per HB.

It is much easier to have an effective HB than a kick, so it is no surprise that Sinclair who HBs much more has the better overall disposal efficiency numbers.

I am a fan of Sinclair, but a good kick he ain't.

 

[Prestige Presti]

I find it interesting that despite not being full fit Seedsman still averaged the most goal assists (0.8) per game then anyone in the club, Pendles the next best (0.7).

Small sample size but Seedsman is the only person i can think of to absolutely dagger it onto the chest of Cloke multiple times after streaming through the middle of the ground, he obviously tired towards the end of games. Him and Fasolo fully fit kicking inside 50 to a fully fit Reid and Cloke make us look so much more dangerous and both have the ability to take the game on, both greatly fit needs of our team and both finally get a full preseason.

 

[Ketchup]

Hawthorn have Smith and Hill, along with Birchall occasionally taking position as their dedicated wingmen. It's not so much standing on the wing as it is a release player. The guy who is always on the outside, waiting for the receive. They're the first ones to run back and the first ones to run forward, because they're rarely caught in the maul.

Smith and Hill are fantastic runners who can cover a lot of ground, hence their success at the position. Helps that they are amazing kicks too. Hawthorn have drafted remarkably well in that regard.

Seedsman needs to stay injury free, and he needs to build a much stronger consistent workrate with the willingness to run both ways. If he can do that, I think he has the potential to be better than Smith. Smith has him beat for endurance, but Seedsman's contested work is underrated and is more of an X-Factor player IMO.

Like Fasolo, I'm not actually sure if he will play to potential. However unlike Fasolo, Seedsman's been a rabid Pie fan his whole life. So I've got more faith that he will put in the hard yards to get the best out of himself.

Have you seen Issac Smith play any time in the past 2 years? No disrespect to Seedsman but there is no chance he will reach that level.

 

[MeisterBot]

Smith is a jet. I think Seedsman can be better. Who knows if he will, just my opinion.

 

[jonbe54]

Have you seen Issac Smith play any time in the past 2 years? No disrespect to Seedsman but there is no chance he will reach that level.

Ketchup with all respect Smithy benefits from having a great midfield around him, they all boost each other by sharing the load but taken out of that situation would he appear - and I MEAN appear - to be as damaging.

I doubt it, few would appear so, also there is the cache of playing in a dual premiership team. Taken all in all Smithy certainly IS a jet but lets not go overboard.